FOOTBALL vs Football

[DC Tom]

That's some pretty weak ass sophistry. Does that crap fly over at PPP?

 

We don't do sophistry on PPP. Mostly because most of our posters there can't spell it.

 

Check the football bible, bro.

 

The futbol bhagavad gita says you're a !@#$ing schmuck.

[bbb]

Good stuff!

[TakeYouToTasker]

The reason MLS draws more than the NHL and NBA is because the stadiums are much bigger than the arenas. You never mention that.

 

This only holds up to scrutiny if all NBA, NHL, and MLB teams are selling out all of their games; which is to say that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

[bbb]

Here's scrutiny:

Team 2013 att. 2012 att. change Stadium Capacity Percent

(2013) Other Stadiums

(Fixtures) (Capacity) Chicago Fire 15,228 16,409 -7.20% Toyota Park 20,000 76% Chivas USA 8,366 13,056 -35.92% StubHub Center 27,000

(18,800) 31% Colorado Rapids 15,440 15,175 +1.75% Dick's Sporting Goods Park 18,086 85% Columbus Crew 16,080 14,397 +11.69% Columbus Crew Stadium 20,145 80% D.C. United 13,646 13,846 -1.44% RFK Stadium† 45,423

(19,467) 30% FC Dallas 15,373 14,199 +8.27% Toyota Stadium 21,193 73% Houston Dynamo 19,923 21,015 -5.20% BBVA Compass Stadium 22,000 91% Los Angeles Galaxy 22,152 23,136 -4.25% StubHub Center 27,000 82% Montreal Impact 20,603 22,772 -9.52% Saputo Stadium 20,341 101% Olympic Stadium (2) (66,308) New England Revolution 14,844 14,001 +6.02% Gillette Stadium† 68,756

(22,385) 22% New York Red Bulls 19,461 18,281 +6.45% Red Bull Arena 25,189 77% Philadelphia Union 17,867 18,053 -1.03% PPL Park 18,500 97% Portland Timbers 20,674 20,438 +1.15% Jeld-Wen Field 20,438 101% Real Salt Lake 19,218 19,087 +0.69% Rio Tinto Stadium 20,008 96% San Jose Earthquakes 12,765 13,293 -3.97% Buck Shaw Stadium† 10,300 124% Stanford Stadium (1) (50,000) Seattle Sounders FC 44,038 43,975 +2.07% CenturyLink Field† 67,000

(38,500) 66% Sporting Kansas City 19,709 19,404 +1.57% Sporting Park 18,467 107% Toronto FC 18,131 18,155 -0.13% BMO Field 23,000 79% Rogers Centre (1) (47,568) Vancouver Whitecaps FC 20,038 19,475 +2.89% BC Place† 54,320

(21,000) 37%

 

Well, that posted like crap. But, the ones that have the whole numbers % are the % of capacity.

 

There are four teams at 37% or less.

 

Here's hockey:

Team Arena Home Games Average Attendance Total Attendance Capacity Percentage Chicago Blackhawks United Center 24 21,755 522,619 110.4% ^[1] Montreal Canadiens Bell Centre 24 21,273 510,552 100.0% Detroit Red Wings Joe Louis Arena 24 20,066 481,584 100.0% Philadelphia Flyers Wells Fargo Center 24 19,786 474,878 101.3% Toronto Maple Leafs Air Canada Centre 24 19,426 466,224 103.2% Ottawa Senators Scotiabank Place 24 19,408 465,801 101.3% Calgary Flames Scotiabank Saddledome 24 19,289 462,936 100.0% Tampa Bay Lightning Tampa Bay Times Forum 24 19,055 457,337 99.2% Buffalo Sabres First Niagara Center 24 18,970 455,290 99.5% Vancouver Canucks Rogers Arena 24 18,947 454,740 100.2% Minnesota Wild Xcel Energy Center 24 18,794 451,075 104.7% Pittsburgh Penguins Consol Energy Center 24 18,648 447,560 101.4% Los Angeles Kings Staples Center 24 18,178 436,295 100.3% Washington Capitals Verizon Center 24 17,734 425,638 95.8% Boston Bruins TD Garden 24 17,565 421,560 100.0% San Jose Sharks HP Pavilion at San Jose 24 17,561 421,472 100.0% Carolina Hurricanes PNC Arena 24 17,558 421,401 94.0% St. Louis Blues Scottrade Center 24 17,263 414,328 90.1% New York Rangers Madison Square Garden 24 17,200 412,800 100.0% New Jersey Devils Prudential Center 24 17,114 410,739 97.1% Dallas Stars American Airlines Center 24 17,063 409,521 98.1% Florida Panthers BankAtlantic Center 24 16,991 383,784 99.7% Nashville Predators Bridgestone Arena 24 16,974 407,386 99.2% Edmonton Oilers Rexall Place 24 16,839 404,136 100.0% Anaheim Ducks Honda Center 24 15,887 381,308 92.5% Colorado Avalanche Pepsi Center 24 15,444 370,677 85.8% Winnipeg Jets MTS Centre 24 15,004 360,096 100.0% Columbus Blue Jackets Nationwide Arena 24 14,565 349,558 80.3% Phoenix Coyotes Jobing.com Arena 24 13,923 334,165 81.3% New York Islanders Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum 24 13,306 319,362 82.3%

[TakeYouToTasker]

Here's scrutiny:

Team 2013 att. 2012 att. change Stadium Capacity Percent

(2013) Other Stadiums

(Fixtures) (Capacity) Chicago Fire 15,228 16,409 -7.20% Toyota Park 20,000 76% Chivas USA 8,366 13,056 -35.92% StubHub Center 27,000

(18,800) 31% Colorado Rapids 15,440 15,175 +1.75% Dick's Sporting Goods Park 18,086 85% Columbus Crew 16,080 14,397 +11.69% Columbus Crew Stadium 20,145 80% D.C. United 13,646 13,846 -1.44% RFK Stadium† 45,423

(19,467) 30% FC Dallas 15,373 14,199 +8.27% Toyota Stadium 21,193 73% Houston Dynamo 19,923 21,015 -5.20% BBVA Compass Stadium 22,000 91% Los Angeles Galaxy 22,152 23,136 -4.25% StubHub Center 27,000 82% Montreal Impact 20,603 22,772 -9.52% Saputo Stadium 20,341 101% Olympic Stadium (2) (66,308) New England Revolution 14,844 14,001 +6.02% Gillette Stadium† 68,756

(22,385) 22% New York Red Bulls 19,461 18,281 +6.45% Red Bull Arena 25,189 77% Philadelphia Union 17,867 18,053 -1.03% PPL Park 18,500 97% Portland Timbers 20,674 20,438 +1.15% Jeld-Wen Field 20,438 101% Real Salt Lake 19,218 19,087 +0.69% Rio Tinto Stadium 20,008 96% San Jose Earthquakes 12,765 13,293 -3.97% Buck Shaw Stadium† 10,300 124% Stanford Stadium (1) (50,000) Seattle Sounders FC 44,038 43,975 +2.07% CenturyLink Field† 67,000

(38,500) 66% Sporting Kansas City 19,709 19,404 +1.57% Sporting Park 18,467 107% Toronto FC 18,131 18,155 -0.13% BMO Field 23,000 79% Rogers Centre (1) (47,568) Vancouver Whitecaps FC 20,038 19,475 +2.89% BC Place† 54,320

(21,000) 37%

 

Well, that posted like crap. But, the ones that have the whole numbers % are the % of capacity.

 

There are four teams at 37% or less.

Can you please link the origional source? That way it can be viewed in a legible format.

[bbb]

Can you please link the origional source? That way it can be viewed in a legible format.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer_attendance

 

Here's the hockey link:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Hockey_League_attendance_figures#2012-13_attendance_statistics

 

Hockey has only 4 teams under 90%! Compared to the 4 under 37% for MLS

.

And, those four are in the 80%.

 

Lots of teams at 100% or better.

 

Here's an espn link for hockey (in case people want to criticize wiki):

 

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

[TakeYouToTasker]

I appreciate it, but that's still not relevant to my point. It doesn't matter what % of their stadiums MLS teams fill, what matters is that they are drawing more than NBA, NFL, and MLB teams who aren't at capacity in their smaller arenas, which means the smaller arenas aren't the reason the MLS is outdrawing other leagues.

[bbb]

I appreciate it, but that's still not relevant to my point. It doesn't matter what % of their stadiums MLS teams fill, what matters is that they are drawing more than NBA, NFL, and MLB teams who aren't at capacity in their smaller arenas, which means the smaller arenas aren't the reason the MLS is outdrawing other leagues.

 

I don't get it. How can it not be relevant?

 

He's saying that they outdraw the NHL and NBA. Well, it would be pitiful if they weren't because their capacity is so much bigger than NHL/NBA. If I get time I'll look up NBA capacities later.

 

MLB and NFL outdraw MLS, so that isn't part of what is being talked about here.

 

Also, if you took those ultimate hipsters in Seattle out of it, it looks to me the NHL draws more even with the smaller capacity.

 

Seattle (an aberation) really skews the average numbers. I'd rather have the NHL numbers which are really strong across the board, instead of having one super popular team and others in the 15K and less group.

[John Adams]

Mmm trolly.

 

Next time post your raw data in Chinese.

[bbb]

Mmm trolly.

 

Next time post your raw data in Chinese.

 

Yeah, that's all you've got. I've got data, you've got name calling.

 

As Thomas Jefferson once said "There is no greater troll than somebody who uses two different IDs on a message board. And, occasionally comes in as backup with the 2nd ID." Look it up, Peace. I think he said in an ESPN Sports Poll.

[linksfiend]

And yet, MLS has higher average attendance than the NHL and NBA so there goes that theory.

 

It won't catch football but with the ever declining death spiral of baseball, it will be #2 in attendance in 10-15 years. And the MLS is drawing top talent. You don't know it because you don't follow it but the MLS game is 100x better than it was just 5 years ago. There are MLS players on many World Cup rosters, not just for the US. It's a good league and not the sort of sloppy mess it was when it started up 20 years ago.

 

The real trick is TV. TV soccer faces the challenge of so many leagues, zero commercials (which Americans can't live without), but the kids understand it and it's their #2 most popular sport to watch. It's already on a lot and that increase is not about to decline.

 

Whoa - things have become pretty hostile here since I last checked in. But I do feel the need to address this average attendance issue that has resurfaced.

 

First, there is no way that MLS is #3 in attendance. I'd have to think both NFL and FBS football have higher average attendance, as well as MLB, Nascar, IRL and the PGA,

 

Regardless, average attendance is a really poor way to measure the popularity of a sport. When you play in larger stadiums, have less than half the number of games, and have ticket prices that are maybe half to one-third the cost, would all lead to higher average attendance per game. A better indicator would be total ticket revenue for the season. It's a purer measure of what the market demand is for a sport. I doubt MLS is on the same tier as the NBA or NHL in total ticket revenue.

 

Finally "Americans can't live without commercials " is completely backwards thinking. Americans only endure commercials because of the popularity of the main program. I have never heard anyone complain there were too few commercials - ever.

Edited June 19, 2014 by linksfiend

[DC Tom]

Finally "Americans can't live without commercials " is completely backwards thinking. Americans only endure commercials because of the popularity of the main program. I have never heard anyone complain there were too few commercials - ever.

 

If anything, DVRs and digital streaming demonstrate that Americans not only can but want to live without commercials.

 

It's corporations that can't live without them.

[bbb]

Whoa - things have become pretty hostile here since I last checked in. But I do feel the need to address this average attendance issue that has resurfaced.

 

First, there is no way that MLS is #3 in attendance. I'd have to think both NFL and FBS football have higher average attendance, as well as MLB, Nascar, IRL and the PGA,

 

Regardless, average attendance is a really poor way to measure the popularity of a sport. When you play in larger stadiums, have less than half the number of games, and have ticket prices that are maybe half to one-third the cost, would all lead to higher average attendance per game. A better indicator would be total ticket revenue for the season. It's a purer measure of what the market demand is for a sport. I doubt MLS is on the same tier as the NBA or NHL in total ticket revenue.

 

Finally "Americans can't live without commercials " is completely backwards thinking. Americans only endure commercials because of the popularity of the main program. I have never heard anyone complain there were too few commercials - ever.

 

+1

[John Adams]

Whoa - things have become pretty hostile here since I last checked in. But I do feel the need to address this average attendance issue that has resurfaced.

 

First, there is no way that MLS is #3 in attendance. I'd have to think both NFL and FBS football have higher average attendance, as well as MLB, Nascar, IRL and the PGA,

 

Only baseball and the NFL are ahead of it (college football too but this was limited to pro sports). Golf get lots of people for major tournaments but I have no idea how you count all the crap tournaments and those have to draw down the numbers considerably. I don't know what FBS and IRL are, and NASCAR is not a "sport" I considered. It beats them all on attendance if you count it.

 

Regardless, average attendance is a really poor way to measure the popularity of a sport. When you play in larger stadiums, have less than half the number of games, and have ticket prices that are maybe half to one-third the cost, would all lead to higher average attendance per game. A better indicator would be total ticket revenue for the season. It's a purer measure of what the market demand is for a sport. I doubt MLS is on the same tier as the NBA or NHL in total ticket revenue.

 

We are talking popularity, not revenue. In person attendance is a big part of that. You'd be better to argue that the TV ratings for MLS blow in comparison to the NHL and NBA. But even those are rising.

[Chef Jim]

Only baseball and the NFL are ahead of it (college football too but this was limited to pro sports). Golf get lots of people for major tournaments but I have no idea how you count all the crap tournaments and those have to draw down the numbers considerably. I don't know what FBS and IRL are, and NASCAR is not a "sport" I considered. It beats them all on attendance if you count it.

 

We are talking popularity, not revenue. In person attendance is a big part of that. You'd be better to argue that the TV ratings for MLS blow in comparison to the NHL and NBA. But even those are rising.

 

I don't care if soccer became the most popular sport in the world based on paid attendance. To me it still sucks and that's all that matters to me. McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in the world and their food sucks. Popularity doesn't mean good. As a matter of fact it rarely does.

 

But the US had 2 shots today none of which were on goal. That's like watching a football team have only 2 first downs the whole game both of which were called back due to penalties. Thrilling stuff.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Chef Jim

[C.Biscuit97]

I don't care if soccer became the most popular sport in the world based on paid attendance. To me it still sucks and that's all that matters to me. McDonalds is the most popular restaurant in the world and their food sucks. Popularity doesn't mean good. As a matter of fact it rarely does.

 

But the US had 2 shots today none of which were on goal. That's like watching a football team have only 2 first downs the whole game both of which were called back due to penalties. Thrilling stuff.

 

Dude, you really have to open up more.

 

P.S. I know you hate Buffalo but it's been looking pretty good lately. You should check it out.

[bbb]

Dude, you really have to open up more.

 

P.S. I know you hate Buffalo but it's been looking pretty good lately. You should check it out.

 

He won't back unless we get the Buffalo Stallions back!

[John Adams]

Dude, you really have to open up more.

 

P.S. I know you hate Buffalo but it's been looking pretty good lately. You should check it out.

 

It's not February 29th so you won't see a positive thought from him.

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

He won't back unless we get the Buffalo Stallions back!

 

Hey! I used to go to Stallions games! w/my friend that was a soccer player... You know the friend (early story I told) that would cry 3 minutes AFTER getting hit by a snowball. And who says the harsh BFLO winters aren't good training grounds! ;-P ;-P

 

 

 

It's not February 29th so you won't see a positive thought from him.

 

LoL... This place is the bomb! LoL, God love you all!

[Chef Jim]

Dude, you really have to open up more.

 

P.S. I know you hate Buffalo but it's been looking pretty good lately. You should check it out.

 

I hate Buffalo?

 

It's not February 29th so you won't see a positive thought from him.

 

Yup, you've got me pegged.

 

But when you can't defend 90 minutes of play with zero shots on goal I guess that's all you got.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Chef Jim