KOKBILLS Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 You must have never watched Bo Jackson... I absolutely did...Plenty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I don't disagree with the point in general Bill...But good grief...A 5th for Spiller is ridiculous...I'm not even saying they could get a 1st or anything like that...But a 5th? That's just insulting... Granted, Sproles is older, but he's been a more productive player than Spiller, and the Saints got a 5th for him. He's also just as electric in his own way. On top of all the the return yardage, he's averaged 77 catches a season the past three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 You must have never watched Bo Jackson... Awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) Granted, Sproles is older, but he's been a more productive player than Spiller, and the Saints got a 5th for him. He's also just as electric in his own way. On top of all the the return yardage, he's averaged 77 catches a season the past three years. This is not true the last 2 years. http://espn.go.com/n...3203/cj-spiller http://espn.go.com/n.../darren-sproles Also, I think Brees & Payton is a slightly better combo than Hackett/ 3 1st year QBs. Oh but I'm a homer because I think CJ and SJ are good players who have don't have the best talent around him. Do people actually believe Spiller won't be an absolute animal playing with Brees and Payton instead of Hackett and Jeff Tuel? Same thing for SJ. Situation and surrounding parts makes a huge difference. The Bills have had an average to slightly below average offense around those 2. On paper, this is the most talent that SJ and CJ have had around them since they entered the league. Why not see what they can do when Spilelr doesn't have to face 8 or 9 guys in the box or SJ getting doubled or facing the best corner? Would you trade SJ for Jermain Gresham? because that is a deal that would make sense. No. But that would give the Bengals possibly the best receiving core in the NFL so that would be good for them. Edited April 25, 2014 by C.Biscuit97 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) This is not true the last 2 years. http://espn.go.com/n...3203/cj-spiller http://espn.go.com/n.../darren-sproles Wha? He had 71 catches last season. If you're going to talk about his productivity, you have to factor in the return game. He makes a lot of returns. He did dip last season, but I still think he's good. I'll confess that I'm not a huge Spiller fan, who I think has a lot of weaknesses in his game and doesn't play a very smart game. I also think that Jackson was a better performer than him last season irrespective of ypc. Spiller is talented, and I certainly don't advocate trading him. Maybe Spiller evolves into one, but he's entering his fifth season and he hasn't shown it consistently yet (2012 was an exception). You expect more production from a top 10 RB (at least I do). \ Basically, I don't think the Bills have any elite players on offense. I think many fans seriously overrate the talent on this team. There is some elite talent on defense, but not on offense. There hasn't been any for a long time - since the departure of Jason Peters. Lynch is an elite talent now, and he certainly flashed it in his two seasons here. Since then, I don't think we've been competitive on offense with the good teams. Edited April 25, 2014 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I really think you overestimate his talent and production. His production the last few seasons is pretty similar to Mike Williams's (although both had down years last year). Neither is a true number one in any case: http://www.footballo...9/steve-johnson . The difference between Mike Williams and Stevie is the number of times they have been stabbed by family members Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Wha? He had 71 catches last season. If you're going to talk about his productivity, you have to factor in the return game. He makes a lot of returns. He did dip last season, but I still think he's good. I'll confess that I'm not a huge Spiller fan, who I think has a lot of weaknesses in his game and doesn't play a very smart game. I also think that Jackson was a better performer than him last season irrespective of ypc. Spiller is talented, and I certainly don't advocate trading him. Maybe Spiller evolves into one, but he's entering his fifth season and he hasn't shown it consistently yet (2012 was an exception). You expect more production from a top 10 RB (at least I do). \ Basically, I don't think the Bills have any elite players on offense. I think many fans seriously overrate the talent on this team. There is some elite talent on defense, but not on offense. There hasn't been any for a long time - since the departure of Jason Peters. Lynch is an elite talent now, and he certainly flashed it in his two seasons here. Since then, I don't think we've been competitive on offense with the good teams. If you admit that there isn't elite talent around Spiller, it kinda makes his job a lot harder. Your QB and oline play has a huge affect on your rb. The only rb who this doesn't matter for is Adrian Peterson, one of the greatest ever. Spiller has played with Fitz (didn't stretch the field) and 3 essentially first year QBs. Yet his career average is 5.1 and is coming off a "bad year" of 4.6 ypc, just a shade under a 1,000, with an ankle injury that limited his touches, sharing the bal lwith another really good running back, and playing behind a hardly dominant oline. I guess agree to disagree. I think Spiller is an elite talent and Bills fans don't look at the full situation. How many rbs besides Peterson would have averaged 4.6 on the Bills? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) If you admit that there isn't elite talent around Spiller, it kinda makes his job a lot harder. Your QB and oline play has a huge affect on your rb. The only rb who this doesn't matter for is Adrian Peterson, one of the greatest ever. Spiller has played with Fitz (didn't stretch the field) and 3 essentially first year QBs. Yet his career average is 5.1 and is coming off a "bad year" of 4.6 ypc, just a shade under a 1,000, with an ankle injury that limited his touches, sharing the bal lwith another really good running back, and playing behind a hardly dominant oline. I guess agree to disagree. I think Spiller is an elite talent and Bills fans don't look at the full situation. How many rbs besides Peterson would have averaged 4.6 on the Bills? Fred, Charles, Morris, Doug, McCoy, Forte, Marshawn for starters. Edited April 25, 2014 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) Whenever I look at CJ's stats the last two years, I instantly miss Chan's offensive play designs. Edited April 25, 2014 by Dorkington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) If you admit that there isn't elite talent around Spiller, it kinda makes his job a lot harder. Your QB and oline play has a huge affect on your rb. The only rb who this doesn't matter for is Adrian Peterson, one of the greatest ever. Spiller has played with Fitz (didn't stretch the field) and 3 essentially first year QBs. Yet his career average is 5.1 and is coming off a "bad year" of 4.6 ypc, just a shade under a 1,000, with an ankle injury that limited his touches, sharing the bal lwith another really good running back, and playing behind a hardly dominant oline. I guess agree to disagree. I think Spiller is an elite talent and Bills fans don't look at the full situation. How many rbs besides Peterson would have averaged 4.6 on the Bills? I think there are a lot of better backs than Spiller: Lynch, Peterson, McCoy, Jamaal Charles, Frank Gore, Reggie Bush (yes, him; I think he's underrated and for the life of me don't understand why the Dolphins got rid of him), and Alfred Morris. Hopefully he breaks out this year. I'm not confident of that because I think the coaches have more faith in Freddie than Spiller. I don't know that for a fact, of course. Edited April 25, 2014 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I think there are a lot of better backs than Spiller: Lynch, Peterson, McCoy, Jamaal Charles, Frank Gore, Reggie Bush (yes, him; I think he's underrated and for the life of me don't understand why the Dolphins got rid of him), and Alfred Morris. Hopefully he breaks out this year. I'm not confident of that because I think the coaches have more faith in Freddie than Spiller. I don't know that for a fact, of course. Fair points all around. Definitely agree on Peterson and McCoy. Gore is on the downside and plays in a much better situation. Charles is probably better but again, he's in a better situation behind a better oline. That's been KC's strength for years. I think Morris is alright but he plays with a very mobile QB (the Bills have never had anything close to RG3) and for Shanahan who makes scrubs into stars. I couldn't disagree more on Bush. He didn't get his first 1,000 season until his 6th year (CJ got it in year 3). He never has gotten 1,200 like CJ did. And his average for his career 4.3 compared to Spiller's 5.1. He also has played with Brees and Calvin Johnson which makes everythign easier for a rb. http://www.nfl.com/player/reggiebush/2506874/profile I'm sure I'll be called a homer and an excuse maker. But every situation is not the same. How good would Bush be on the Bills? IMO, if Spiller was on the Saints, he'd be considered one of the best all around backs in the NFL. Whenever I look at CJ's stats the last two years, I instantly miss Chan's offensive play designs. Agreed 100%. It's not all about handoffs. Gailey was great at getting Spiller into space and there are few players in the league better in space. Hackett needs to do a much better job with this. Spiller is a weapon few teams have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpberr Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 I get an increasing suspicion of the Bills being involved in a 1987/Biscuit type of trade this year. Lots of smoke from various directions on CJ and SJ, lots of running backs in on visits, and they are two players that could plausibly be dealt in a big trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 (edited) Fair points all around. Definitely agree on Peterson and McCoy. Gore is on the downside and plays in a much better situation. Charles is probably better but again, he's in a better situation behind a better oline. That's been KC's strength for years. I think Morris is alright but he plays with a very mobile QB (the Bills have never had anything close to RG3) and for Shanahan who makes scrubs into stars. I couldn't disagree more on Bush. He didn't get his first 1,000 season until his 6th year (CJ got it in year 3). He never has gotten 1,200 like CJ did. And his average for his career 4.3 compared to Spiller's 5.1. He also has played with Brees and Calvin Johnson which makes everythign easier for a rb. http://www.nfl.com/p...2506874/profile I'm sure I'll be called a homer and an excuse maker. But every situation is not the same. How good would Bush be on the Bills? IMO, if Spiller was on the Saints, he'd be considered one of the best all around backs in the NFL. Bush, who hasn't played on league-leading offenses since leaving NO, is a far better receiver than Spiller, who seems to have trouble running routes beyond basic screens and dumpoffs. To see Bush's superiority in the passing game, all you need to do is watch the games. In the last three seasons, Spiller has had 3681 yards from scrimmage and 16 TDs, while Bush has had 4172 yards and 22 TDs. FYI, Freddie is a way better receiver than Spiller, which is why the coaches like him more (not to mention the blocking). You can't just be a runner in today's NFL; you have to be a receiver too. Jackson outyarded Spiller 1277 to 1118 last year, and had 10 TDs to Spiller's 2. Jackson also averaged 5.05 yards per touch last year, while Spiller averaged 4.76. Spiller also fumbled more on fewer touches. Spiller isn't even the best back on his own team. Edited April 25, 2014 by dave mcbride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsBytheBay Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Consider that Tennesee couldn't get anything for a much more prolific and just slightly older CJ2k. A speed back handling 10-12 touches a game doesn't carry a team and doesn't command a kings ransom. well, that's an interesting parallel you're trying to draw..... I get an increasing suspicion of the Bills being involved in a 1987/Biscuit type of trade this year. Lots of smoke from various directions on CJ and SJ, lots of running backs in on visits, and they are two players that could plausibly be dealt in a big trade. what smoke? The eagles asked about spiller. Bills said no. Marrone told SJ he won't be traded. Everything else is garbage from media outlets, or assumtions from boards like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Bush, who hasn't played on league-leading offenses since leaving NO, is a far better receiver than Spiller, who seems to have trouble running routes beyond basic screens and dumpoffs. To see Bush's superiority in the passing game, all you need to do is watch the games. In the last three seasons, Spiller has had 3681 yards from scrimmage and 16 TDs, while Bush has had 4172 yards and 22 TDs. FYI, Freddie is a way better receiver than Spiller, which is why the coaches like him more (not to mention the blocking). You can't just be a runner in today's NFL; you have to be a receiver too. Jackson outyarded Spiller 1277 to 1118 last year, and had 10 TDs to Spiller's 2. Jackson also averaged 5.05 yards per touch last year, while Spiller averaged 4.76. Spiller also fumbled more on fewer touches. Spiller isn't even the best back on his own team. 1) You really don't think Calvin Johnson opens things up for a rb? I am very confident that Spiller is held in much higher regard than Bush. 2) In 2012, when HEALTHY (because he wasn't last year) and used in the passing game, Spiller had a season where he had more rushing yards than FJax has ever had in a season and also more receiving yards than FJax has ever had in a season. They both are good backs. I love FJax but he doesn't have the elite skills Spiller has and much younger. If Spiller leaves the Bills, it will be both sad and hilarious to watch people who didn't appreciate his skills, bash the Bills for letting him go. well, that's an interesting parallel you're trying to draw..... what smoke? The eagles asked about spiller. Bills said no. Marrone told SJ he won't be traded. Everything else is garbage from media outlets, or assumtions from boards like this. Agreed. And anyone comparing to Spiller to Chris Johnson at this point in the career is out of their mind. Running behind the amazing Andy Levtire, Spiller averaged 6 ypc. CJ1K averaged 3.9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 1) You really don't think Calvin Johnson opens things up for a rb? I am very confident that Spiller is held in much higher regard than Bush. 2) In 2012, when HEALTHY (because he wasn't last year) and used in the passing game, Spiller had a season where he had more rushing yards than FJax has ever had in a season and also more receiving yards than FJax has ever had in a season. They both are good backs. I love FJax but he doesn't have the elite skills Spiller has and much younger. If Spiller leaves the Bills, it will be both sad and hilarious to watch people who didn't appreciate his skills, bash the Bills for letting him go. Agreed. And anyone comparing to Spiller to Chris Johnson at this point in the career is out of their mind. Running behind the amazing Andy Levtire, Spiller averaged 6 ypc. CJ1K averaged 3.9. The constant throughout Bush's career is that he's been a good receiver. You can keep making his excuses for his production the receiving game, but maybe his production is the result of him ... simply being a good receiver. He may well end up with 600 receptions lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maury Ballstein Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Reggie bush blows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 Reggie bush blows. I know that C Biscuit disagrees but I think that Reggie and Spiller are very similar (that is meant to be a compliment to each). Over the last 3 years (rushing & receiving): Player A: 631 touches for 3,651 yards (5.8 yards per touch) & 16 TDs Player B: 798 touches for 4,172 yards (5.2 yards per touch) & 22 TDs One of those players is Spiller and one is Reggie Bush. It's debatable as to which I would pick but they just aren't that different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 The constant throughout Bush's career is that he's been a good receiver. You can keep making his excuses for his production the receiving game, but maybe his production is the result of him ... simply being a good receiver. He may well end up with 600 receptions lifetime. What did Sproles and Bush have in common when they were putting up highs in receptions? Black and gold. Spiller averaged almost 11 yards a catch in 2012. Gailey put him at receiver. For Spiller to end up with only 5 yards a carry, IMO, it's on the coaching staff (and possibly they limited his touches because of his injury). Last question. Do you not believe Spiller won't be a major weapon if Sean Payton was calling the plays and Brees was under centeR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 25, 2014 Share Posted April 25, 2014 What did Sproles and Bush have in common when they were putting up highs in receptions? Black and gold. Spiller averaged almost 11 yards a catch in 2012. Gailey put him at receiver. For Spiller to end up with only 5 yards a carry, IMO, it's on the coaching staff (and possibly they limited his touches because of his injury). Last question. Do you not believe Spiller won't be a major weapon if Sean Payton was calling the plays and Brees was under centeR? Bush's second best receiving season was last year (506 receiving yards). Sproles was an excellent receiver with SD too (twice averaging over 11 ypc). Of course, Rivers is excellent too. As for Spiller on the Saints, sure, he'd be better, but all the backs for the Saints (except Ingram) tend to perform well. Which just shows that RBs are pretty interchangeable. It's why no one drafts them in rd 1 anymore. Anyway, I don't think there's much difference between Bush and Spiller. It's not only the stats that tell me that; it's my own eyes. Bush has been pretty darn good the last three seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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