Why draft a LOT to play ROT?

[3rdand12]

Consider this, good tackles can be found in the 2nd round as well . . . wasn't our current left tackle, whom we all agree, "is pretty good" (good enough that even these top 10 pick tackles would not displace him), was a second round pick?

 

I say, draft the playmaker: Ebron or one of the top WRs, and get your RT in the 2nd or 3rd.

 

 

 

This too, is what I'd like to know. If Hairston is available, I think that gives the Bills more room to draft a potential play maker at 9.

 

I really think that Hairston's conditions is the wildcard in all this. If he's healthy and ready to go this season, the Bills drafting options are much better.

Wild card indeed . He was very decent when he played .

Not an Ebron fan at 9 but i can understand the enthusiasm

 

It is what you said before, it seems to me to be a matter of attitude, a matter of priorities.

 

Ozzie, who puts far more into maintaining his Oline than the Bills do building theirs...never seems satisfied. the Bills replace their best lineman with some dumpster fodder, say things like "oh, I really like the way things are shaping up"

 

I really hope he's playing possum. But we'll see.

If it were Nix running the show i would say we are kinda screwed .

Whaley and the O line are a wait and see.

Yet another defining off season is upon us !

[thewildrabbit]

Consider this, good tackles can be found in the 2nd round as well . . . wasn't our current left tackle, whom we all agree, "is pretty good" (good enough that even these top 10 pick tackles would not displace him), was a second round pick?

 

I say, draft the playmaker: Ebron or one of the top WRs, and get your RT in the 2nd or 3rd.

 

 

 

This too, is what I'd like to know. If Hairston is available, I think that gives the Bills more room to draft a potential play maker at 9.

 

I really think that Hairston's conditions is the wildcard in all this. If he's healthy and ready to go this season, the Bills drafting options are much better.

I've asked this many times before. What playmakers that the Bills have brought in as free agents or have drafted over the last 14 years have made a difference? Lee Evans, CJ Spiller, Marshawn Lynch, Terrell Owens, Kevin Everett, Roscoe Parrish, Willis McGahee, Josh Reed, James Hardy, Robert Woods. Have they made the playoffs with any of those playmakers?

 

Its all about the QB... its always been about the QB, and he can't have success unless he is properly protected. I don't know about you, but I'm rather sick of the Bills trying to institute these quick, short, passing schemes because they refuse to properly upgrade the line.

 

I'm all for giving EJ Tom Brady / Peyton Manning like time in the pocket to throw those 3-5 second developing deep throws to the speed receivers in Marquise Goodwin, TJ Graham.

 

Lastly, I don't think most fans realize just how incredibly lucky the bills were to obtain a LT talent like Cordy Glenn in the second round. Thinking that the Bills can do that at will is wishful thinking IMHO

[thebandit27]

 

 

uh huh...

 

the context is...some are better at pass blocking than others. It is a football fact of life.

 

I've watched Levtire enough over the years...and more than enough of Legursky and Colin Brown..to know what the differences are.. and that reading those stats confirmed what I already knew by watching them.

 

"not in the same league" is a phrase that comes to mind.

 

If you ever put an interior offensive lineman on an island...Levitre was it.. The dude never got help..because he didn't need it. 95% of the time..Wood would move to his right and help Urbik. And despite not getting help and being left on interior island..he gave up an extraordinary little amount of pressure.

 

Legursky isn't really too bad of a run blocker, IMO..but his pass blocking is well below average. It might be his lack of height and consequent loss of leverage, but he gets beat quite a bit after initial contact. His protection basically holds up for a second or two. That might be cool with some...but that a second or two of protection is really not good. Colin Brown was just beyond bad.

 

People can watch all of the tape they want, but if they can't tell the difference between good and bad..it really doesn't matter.

 

So yes, it is a matter of context, I guess.

 

So that was a massive straw man that had zero to do with Williams...I your assertion is that any opinion that doesn't consider Levitre as some elite player is invalid or uninformed, well, that seems silly.

 

Levitre was massively overpaid. He was largely a flop in Tennessee, as their offense was no better with him than before his arrival.

 

The only mistake was the misjudgment of the replacement...something the team is working to rectify with the Williams signing.

 

 

 

Ozzie had to dismantle half of his SB team for cap reasons. Last year, he lost his veteran center to retirement and his 2 OT's to laziness.

 

 

the year before,,,when they won the SB...they looked like this

 

LT- former Pro Bowl selection (with motivational problems)

LG- 2nd round pick

C- veteran and former 6 time pro bowler

RG- 3rd round pick, Pro Bowler...had been given a contract for 6.5 million a year (you don't pay a guard that type of money!)

RT- 1st round pick (you don't draft a RT tackle in the 1st round!)

 

Since 2005, while replenishiing his offensive line (that had been always far superior to anything Buffalo fielded), he used 8 picks in rounds 1-3 on the OL;

 

Buffalo...while "rebuilding" its OL since at least 2005...has used 3; they are down to 2...

 

When the cap wouldn't let him pay both of his guards 6.5 million a year, he used a 2nd round pick as a replacement.

 

Buffalo used a garbage dumpster run to replace its guard.

 

When he was losing his center Jason Brown to FA riches, he was replaced with a pro bowl center.

 

When the Bills traded their pro bowl tackle, he was replaced with 7th round pick Demetrius (Demetruss) Bell. It took 3 years to draft Cordy Glenn.

 

Ozzie..the anti-Bills philosophy.

 

I'm not arguing that Ozzie isn't a good GM; he's excellent. I'm just saying that talking about some OL priority is incorrect. Ozzie drafts BPA; if anything, not doing so for 6 years was Buffalo's biggest issue.

[papazoid]

starting to think all 3 top rated OT's will be gone by #9.

 

I think Bortles is going #1 with manziel & bridgewater falling out of the top 10.

[CSBill]

I've asked this many times before. What playmakers that the Bills have brought in as free agents or have drafted over the last 14 years have made a difference? Lee Evans, CJ Spiller, Marshawn Lynch, Terrell Owens, Kevin Everett, Roscoe Parrish, Willis McGahee, Josh Reed, James Hardy, Robert Woods. Have they made the playoffs with any of those playmakers?

 

Its all about the QB... its always been about the QB, and he can't have success unless he is properly protected. I don't know about you, but I'm rather sick of the Bills trying to institute these quick, short, passing schemes because they refuse to properly upgrade the line.

 

I'm all for giving EJ Tom Brady / Peyton Manning like time in the pocket to throw those 3-5 second developing deep throws to the speed receivers in Marquise Goodwin, TJ Graham.

 

Lastly, I don't think most fans realize just how incredibly lucky the bills were to obtain a LT talent like Cordy Glenn in the second round. Thinking that the Bills can do that at will is wishful thinking IMHO

 

Consider this: "Of the thirty-two teams, twenty are set to start former first round picks at left tackle. Seven more were drafted in the second round, and are expected to start at left tackle. These numbers don't even take into account this year's past draft." (6/13/13)

 

I hear you, and I for one would not at all be upset if the Bills drafted one of the top tackles (although Lewan doesn't excite me).

 

I'll say it again, Hairston is the Wildcard. He played very well when he did play, and if the Bills think he can provide stability at the RT position, then draft something else.

 

Or, if he can move to a guard position, and then draft another tackle ??? …. that might be an even better option. But who knows?

Edited March 22, 2014 by CSBill

[Dibs]

I agree with the OP. You draft an OT in the top 10 in hopes that he will become a multi pro bowl LT. As we already have Glenn(running under the assumption that he will become that multi pro bowl LT)........selecting a second player of similar potential is a guarantee that one of those players will not stay in Buffalo past their rookie contract(as no team pays top 10 LT money to their RT). This is extremely poor long term team building planning.

[johnwalter]

i like the idea of two LT-quality tackles, giving ej bookends for the next 10 years and hackett the ability to runt the ball down our opponents' throats if our defense is performing at the level of which they are capable. that being said im not opposed to grabbing a possibly elite pass-catcher early and hoping for (/trading up for?) morgan moses in the second.

 

also: any chance of getting that font banned from 2bd, took me a half hour to read the op

[maryland-bills-fan]

I changed the font, but it won't let me undo the underlining or the bold at the end of the posting.

[thewildrabbit]

_{Many of the mock drafts have the Bills taking one of the top three offensive left tackles in the draft. This has me mystified since we already have a top left offensive tackle in Cory Glenn. Some would argue that, well we could switch Glenn to the right side- I’ll counter with the wise statement that if something isn’t broken, you shouldn’t fix it. Or they would argue that we could really have a buttkicking o-line if we draft a guy good enough to star at LOT and then switch him to ROT. Both of these arugments are very faulty in my view because we would be wasting resources and creating a roster & player problem at ROT. Let me explain.}

 

_{What is true is that the elite or you top offensive tackle is put on the left side, the blind side for the QB, whereas your 2nd best guy plays on the right side. This is because of the fact that a pass rushing DE is less dangerous coming in from the right side of the offense, where the right handed QB can see him and react to him better than if he is coming in from the QB's left side. All things being equal, you put the better guy on the LOT and yes the defenses best pass rushing DE/LB can then move over and attack the weaker ROT, and force the offense to counter with a helper to the ROT. Of course you don’t want the ROT to be the weak link and there is some appreciation that this is becoming a concern in general in the league and with Pears for the Bills. (http://www.buffalobi...e7-7115c5066dea)}

 

_{Okay then, why shouldn’t the Bills draft the very best OT from the top 3 canidates and stick him at ROT? My answer is that the pay scale discrepancy between the LOT and ROT is so large, that you would have to pay that ROT at the prime player LOT rate- something that teams do not do. A better choice to replace Pears is to take a genuine ROT, lower in the draft and pay him well. This means that he would be happy and not doing a Byrd/Peters act on us ASAP and we would pick up another first day draftee and be a stronger team.}

 

_{This year's draft is very well stocked with extra players. We can get a very good ROT lower in the first or at the top of the 2nd round, and ALSO get another first day draft pick. Here are two scenarios:}

 

_{Scenario #1: draft a top 3 OT with pick #9. What you get is a guy who will definitely be able to handle the job. You also are under utilizing this guy and will probably not be paying him LOT money. He will be underpaid and as soon as he can, he will be holding out and wanting to test the market. The average salaries for left and right tackles are $4.7M and $2.4M respectively. (this is for guys on the roster). However for the top players (and you expect one of the top three ROT draftees to be a top player- or you have failed in your draft pick) the situation is that the LOT is much more expensive.} http://www.spotrac.c...ackle/limit-25/ _{shows the following CAP salary hits for the positions;}

 

_{LOT Thomas ($10.9M), Okung $8.7M, Clady $8M, Long $8M..............and the 13th LOT Baker comes in at 3.25M.}

 

_{at ROT the pay scale is different- in order from the highest: Free $3.5M, Loadhold $3.4M, A. Smith $3.0M, Howard $2.8M, Pears $2.75M.....}

 

_{So the top ROT is paid the same as the 13th LOT. If the guy is very good, he will want to be paid for his ability to play LOT and he will want to get to free agency ASAP to be paid value for his work. A solution would be pay him top 5 LOT money- Got an extra $5M and you might keep him happy, but be financially and CAP stressed elsewhere on your roster.}

 

_{Scenario #2......We trade our first round pick (#9) so we don’t get one of the top 3 LOT there. We trade down to the 18th pick in the first and get that pick in both the first and the second round. (I know it doesn’t come out that simply, but anyway for purposes of discussion……)We use pick #18 to get the ROT and the 18th pick in the second round to get the 2nd or 3rd best offensive guard in the draft. We might get players like Zack} Martin and Gabe Jackson out of this, rather than an unhappy misplaced LOT.

FIXED, and much easier on the eyes

 

While the OP is concerned about drafting a LT at #9 this draft. That every OT taken in last years draft within the first 4 picks played RT last year for their respective teams, and the player who graded as the best was drafted at #11 DJ Fluker who actually was regarded as a RT. Heck, there was even a OG taken at #7, and another OG taken with the #10 pick. (god forbid, because some Bills fans think that OG's should be drafted in the 3rd round or later)

 

 

Now that Teddy Bridgewater stunk it up throwing in his pro day, and he didn't throw at the combine. His draft stock has fallen quite a bit, and now he has dropped out of the top ten on many boards. Stating that, I highly doubt that any of those top three tackles will be there at #9.

 

So, if the bills have a desire to draft an OT they will then need to consider Zack Martin (who I like a lot), and he won't make it past the #12 of the NY Giants, or at the latest #19, of the Dolphins, who are desperate for O line help.

[Centerline]

Because when Glen is up for contract renewal, the Bills won't be able to resign him, can you say Peters.

[thebandit27]

Because when Glen is up for contract renewal, the Bills won't be able to resign him, can you say Peters.

 

And this is evidenced by what?

 

The act that, two regimes ago, the team re-signed Peters to a five-year deal that he wanted to renegotiate less than 2 years later?

 

This group has re-signed far more players than they've let go, making shrewd but smart decisions along the way (Levitre). Yes, they didn't re-sign Byrd, which is a shame...they did make, by all accounts, a very reasonable offer--at some point it becomes time to move on.

 

I have no trouble believing that they'll get a deal done with Glenn, an opinion I base on how proactive they've been with guys like Wood, Aaron Williams, and many others.

 

Now, it's worth noting that other guys need to come first, both from a standpoint that their deals are up sooner, and that the team cannot extend Glenn due to CBA rules until after the upcoming season.

 

I expect that you'll soon hear about a new contact being discussed for Dareus, as he's next in line.

 

My guess is Glenn would be next after that.

[thewildrabbit]

Because when Glen is up for contract renewal, the Bills won't be able to resign him, can you say Peters.

Peters was a special story, as the Bills themselves created their own turmoil with him. Long story short, the Bills brought in two high priced free agents in Derrick Dockery, and Langston Walker, and both sucked big time while Peters kept making the pro bowl and was league renowned for being the very best LT, as he was highly praised by almost every football analyst at that time.

 

Dockery got a 7-year deal, $49 million contract with $18 million signing bonus. Walker got a 5-year, $25 million contract with a $10 million bonus. Thus making Peters the third highest paid player on that line, and he didn't like it. So, he held out of all off season activities and even pre season games, and came in out of shape for the 08 season. In the off season the Bills eventually traded him to the Eagles because they refused to pay him what he wanted.

 

 

As long as the Bills are proactive like they were with Eric Wood, and don't allow Glenn to reach free agency then things should be fine. Provided of course that the Bills offer him a fair contract.

[Sumin]

FIXED, and much easier on the eyes

 

While the OP is concerned about drafting a LT at #9 this draft. That every OT taken in last years draft within the first 4 picks played RT last year for their respective teams, and the player who graded as the best was drafted at #11 DJ Fluker who actually was regarded as a RT. Heck, there was even a OG taken at #7, and another OG taken with the #10 pick. (god forbid, because some Bills fans think that OG's should be drafted in the 3rd round or later)

 

 

Now that Teddy Bridgewater stunk it up throwing in his pro day, and he didn't throw at the combine. His draft stock has fallen quite a bit, and now he has dropped out of the top ten on many boards. Stating that, I highly doubt that any of those top three tackles will be there at #9.

 

So, if the bills have a desire to draft an OT they will then need to consider Zack Martin (who I like a lot), and he won't make it past the #12 of the NY Giants, or at the latest #19, of the Dolphins, who are desperate for O line help.

 

You hit the nail on the dot...

 

If anyone is shying away from drafting a blue chip OT player in the first ten picks based solely on the fact that we already have a great OT in Glenn.. and are banking on Chris Hairston.. that line of thinking is actually not long term. I think we can all agree, at least I hope, that OLine is now the biggest need to be addressed. Heaven forbid if Cordy gets injured again? Or Wood? We were lucky to get out of last season unscathed. Moreover, you don't skip a talent because you don't think you can satisfy their needs in the future. That speaks to poor management, IMO. You don't draft a RT in the first ten picks? Okay, so you'd rather grab a less talented player at another position of need if it came down to that? Let's look at the breakdown. The Bills MO has been, over the past few years, to find value with cheaper than the average pay guard. (Williams, Urbik). So the Bills can compensate for this by having two rock solid T's, right?

 

Now, this said, if Matthews and Robinson are both gone, I have no qualms trading down to get more picks and still get a above average lineman. BUT either Robinson or Matthews would shore up that RT position for the next 4-5 years.

 

Because Hairston is such a wildcard, we should operate under the assumption that he currently is not fit for playing. You plan for the worst. This means you have Erik Pears as your starter. If you draft Matthews or Robinson, then it gets you more flexibility on the line. Even if they draft Matthews or Robinson, I don't know that I would cut Pears unless he's truly getting outperformed in camp by Hairston. Tell me, Mark Asper and JJ Unga could be promising players, but would you really want them to step into a game right now to take someone's spot?

 

 

[Nanker]

Lord knows LTs never get injured or hurt.

What if they moved Glenn to LG?

Glenn playing out his contract and walking is a more of a concern than worrying about having an excellent RT for five years working on his rookie contract.

Crap, what if Hairston comes back? What will they do, what will they do?

[CSBill]

As this thread shows—with so many well thought through perspectives and angles--there are so many nuances to this process.

 

There are lots go good options, but what is the best option????

 

Let's hope the Bills figure it out.

[Rockinon]

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities that the Bills not only address the offensive tackle position, but also try and find a quality backup for Eric Wood. This OL is just one injury away from a complete disaster. What if Glenn gets injured?

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

Ozzie had to dismantle half of his SB team for cap reasons. Last year, he lost his veteran center to retirement and his 2 OT's to laziness.

 

 

the year before,,,when they won the SB...they looked like this

 

LT- former Pro Bowl selection (with motivational problems)

LG- 2nd round pick

C- veteran and former 6 time pro bowler

RG- 3rd round pick, Pro Bowler...had been given a contract for 6.5 million a year (you don't pay a guard that type of money!)

RT- 1st round pick (you don't draft a RT tackle in the 1st round!)

 

Since 2005, while replenishiing his offensive line (that had been always far superior to anything Buffalo fielded), he used 8 picks in rounds 1-3 on the OL;

 

Buffalo...while "rebuilding" its OL since at least 2005...has used 3; they are down to 2...

 

When the cap wouldn't let him pay both of his guards 6.5 million a year, he used a 2nd round pick as a replacement.

 

Buffalo used a garbage dumpster run to replace its guard.

 

When he was losing his center Jason Brown to FA riches, he was replaced with a pro bowl center.

 

When the Bills traded their pro bowl tackle, he was replaced with 7th round pick Demetrius (Demetruss) Bell. It took 3 years to draft Cordy Glenn.

 

Ozzie..the anti-Bills philosophy.

 

McKinnie made the pro bowl once playing next to one of the best Gs ever. He has hardly been a stud at this level.

 

Yanda has made pro bowls at this level. How about Levitre?

 

That Rt they drafted in the 1st was just let go for nothing.

[TPS]

Decided to compile some numbers from the "experts" and their rankings of Lewan, Evans, and Ebron. I used nfl.com (Jeremiah, Brandt, and brooks), cbssports (top prospects and rang), nfl-si, espn, and sporting news. Based on 8 rankings, and order listed as L, Evans, Ebron:

 

1. Average rank= 11, 14, 15

2. Range= 7-20, 6-36, 6-24

3. if you toss out the highest ranking for each, the gap narrows significantly between Lewan and Evans--9.9 vs 11.6; Ebron drops to 14)

4. Top 10 rankings= 5/8, 3/8, 1/8

5. Top ranking by: espn and sporting news=7, espn=6, sporting news=6.

 

Assuming Mathews, Watkins, Mack, or Robinson aren't there, then these "experts' rankings" suggest Lewan should be the pick, and if he's gone, then Evans.

 

Ps. If I had access to espn insider, I would've included Kiper and mcshay, but I don't, so I used the overall ranking on the espn draft site.

[CookieG]

So that was a massive straw man that had zero to do with Williams...I your assertion is that any opinion that doesn't consider Levitre as some elite player is invalid or uninformed, well, that seems silly.

 

Levitre was massively overpaid. He was largely a flop in Tennessee, as their offense was no better with him than before his arrival.

 

The only mistake was the misjudgment of the replacement...something the team is working to rectify with the Williams signing.

 

No straw man involved. I just openly wonder when someone watches an interior lineman on all access...watches them give up 5 sacks and 28 pressures...and then calls them "average". And then expects people to accept that opinion as fact. I just wonder what they are watching.

 

Much like when Buddy talked about how surprised people were going to be with Colin Brown and Sam Young. People at the time said...Buddy has a plan...so these guys must be good..

 

They weren't and his "trust me, they're better than you think" statements were no more than naked justification for someone who had the OL as a very low prioritty on his list.

 

If you'd like to say that Chris Williams played "average" feel free. It doesn't change the OL situation...

 

 

I'm not arguing that Ozzie isn't a good GM; he's excellent. I'm just saying that talking about some OL priority is incorrect. Ozzie drafts BPA; if anything, not doing so for 6 years was Buffalo's biggest issue.

 

Again..if you want to believe that the Bills put the same emphasis on the OL as the Ravens...go ahead...it isn't true... it has never been true. He seeks quality on the OL...and he pays for quality. Is he always right? no. but he puts far more effort into it than any GM we've had in a while.

 

I used Ozzie as an example for the point that maybe...just maybe..the Bills should start looking at how successful teams build their teams, rather than thinking they are outsmarting people.

 

McKinnie made the pro bowl once playing next to one of the best Gs ever. He has hardly been a stud at this level.

 

Yanda has made pro bowls at this level. How about Levitre?

 

That Rt they drafted in the 1st was just let go for nothing.

 

That's nice...point comepletely missed.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Peters was a special story, as the Bills themselves created their own turmoil with him. Long story short, the Bills brought in two high priced free agents in Derrick Dockery, and Langston Walker, and both sucked big time while Peters kept making the pro bowl and was league renowned for being the very best LT, as he was highly praised by almost every football analyst at that time.

 

Dockery got a 7-year deal, $49 million contract with $18 million signing bonus. Walker got a 5-year, $25 million contract with a $10 million bonus. Thus making Peters the third highest paid player on that line, and he didn't like it. So, he held out of all off season activities and even pre season games, and came in out of shape for the 08 season. In the off season the Bills eventually traded him to the Eagles because they refused to pay him what he wanted.

 

 

As long as the Bills are proactive like they were with Eric Wood, and don't allow Glenn to reach free agency then things should be fine. Provided of course that the Bills offer him a fair contract.

 

Russ Brandon said himself on NFL Radio that he refused to renegotiation Peters contract because he felt it was Lee Evans turn in line. In retrospect, the Lee Evans deal was a mistake. He took the money and posted his two least productive seasons as a Bill before getting traded to Baltimore and bouncing out of the NFL.

 

The real issue is where Russ Brandon stands in terms of the prioritization of the OL of his team. In 2009, he was the nominal GM when they completely gutted the entire OL. The track record with him at the helm in terms of re-signing homegrown elite players is very much open to debate. So, it's a fair question: if Glenn develops into a perennial All-Pro caliber player, do the Bills try to re-sign him? Even if he wants a little extra to stay?