Jahi McMath

[boyst]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/31/jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-girl/4265377/

 

http://www.latimes.com/local/la-me-jahi-ventilator-20131231,0,7172103.story#axzz2p6dPMJ1w

 

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-case-20131230,0,4012633.story#axzz2p6dPMJ1w

 

Such a tragic story is being blown up. It has been in the news a while and I was all for keeping her "alive" through Christmas because I know what it would mean to any mother and family. To think this girl had this happen after having a tonsillectomy, something I had done just a year ago, blows my mind (especially because I had a similar complication where I ruptured a major artery in my throat and began losing a severe amount of blood).

 

Maybe I am cold blooded, but the best part of any relationship is knowing when to say goodbye. For better or for worse. The family is fighting this way too much and it will not end in any good way. I understand they are grief stricken and I cannot hold it against them but someone needs to intervene and that is where the judicial system is again failing this country.

 

From an above link:

OAKLAND — As the clock ticks toward a 5 p.m. deadline for Children's Hospital Oakland to remove a 13-year-old girl deemed brain-dead from a ventilator, experts in medical and legal ethics say there are no “gray areas” in the case and it should never have gotten this far.

 

Furthermore, they warn, if the family of Jahi McMath were to find a facility to accept her, the hospital would set a troubling precedent if physicians there were to surgically insert breathing and feeding tubes into the young girl as her distraught relatives have requested.

another quote from another link above:

Two hospital physicians and three outside doctors requested by the family deemed her brain-dead, court records show, and the county coroner was notified. But the family protested the hospital's intention to remove Jahi from a ventilator.

Tests by an independent physician named by Grillo also determined that the girl is legally dead. They showed no blood flow to the brain, an inability to breathe on her own and no sign of electrical activity.

 

With such a touchy subject and the political spin that applies to this story PPP was the only logical choice for this article, but I do ask that we remember this child has done nothing wrong and if any anger is taken out against her then you need consider yourself a rotten piece of poo. Even if you take it out against her family, you may be a bit of a jerk.

[Koko78]

Few thoughts:

 

1.) It's cruel and selfish that this family demands that the girl be kept on life support. She's dead, and as harsh as this sounds: there needs to come a time to accept it.

 

2.) How exactly are they planning on paying for this demand that she be kept on life support for all eternity? They're not going to continue to receive donations indefinitely. Are they going to sue for another injunction when they stop paying for care if she is transferred to one of these facilities?

 

3.) I don't believe a federal judge can order doctors to perform surgery. Besides being a clear violation of the 13th Amendment, it's an abhorrent notion that people feel they can have the courts compel someone to perform a professional service against that practitioner's will and/or code of ethics. With that said, I'm sure they'll get some liberal looney judge to attempt to order it - it's the 9th Circuit.

 

4.) This "family lawyer" doesn't impress me.

[3rdnlng]

Guys, not one of you that hasn't gone through it and had to make the final decision here knows jack schit. Trust me.

Edited January 1, 2014 by 3rdnlng

[Koko78]

What makes you think my family hasn't?

[3rdnlng]

What makes you think my family hasn't?

 

Then you might know jack schit?

[Chef Jim]

Then you might know jack schit?

 

Then he MIGHT know jack ****? And one only has to have experienced this to know what they'd do? Jesus getting banned was probably the best thing that happened to me. I was obviously too close to the asylum to see the idiots.

[IDBillzFan]

Then he MIGHT know jack ****? And one only has to have experienced this to know what they'd do? Jesus getting banned was probably the best thing that happened to me. I was obviously too close to the asylum to see the idiots.

 

Wow. Now they're banning Jesus?

 

Those bitches at Camp Unicorn are tough.

[Chef Jim]

Wow. Now they're banning Jesus?

 

Those bitches at Camp Unicorn are tough.

 

It's amazing what missing punctuation can do to a sentence. And I though it had to do with what would I do.

[4merper4mer]

Wow. Now they're banning Jesus?

 

Those bitches at Camp Unicorn are tough.

 

Jesus deserved banning. He was fake acting like he was Ed.

[3rdnlng]

Then he MIGHT know jack ****? And one only has to have experienced this to know what they'd do? Jesus getting banned was probably the best thing that happened to me. I was obviously too close to the asylum to see the idiots.

 

Koko didn't say definitively that he or his family had to make that decision. That's where the "might" came from. Everyone can speculate on what they would do, but when it comes time to make the decision it's very easy to put it off, just in case there's some miracle in the next few days.

[DC Tom]

Koko didn't say definitively that he or his family had to make that decision. That's where the "might" came from. Everyone can speculate on what they would do, but when it comes time to make the decision it's very easy to put it off, just in case there's some miracle in the next few days.

 

The problem in their decision being: their daughter is clinically dead.

 

There needs to be some serious thought put into the redefinition of "dead" to something that makes more sense in light of medical technology that can keep the meat "alive" long after the person is gone.

[Azalin]

If the family has the means to keep her on life support, then I see no reason why they shouldnt . this isn't about the girl having some kind of miraculous recovery, its about the family's difficulty dealing with such an unexpected tragedy and the loss of an innocent child at the most difficult time of the year for such a thing to happen (there's probably unopened Christmas gifts with her name on them that shell never see). Even facing the fact that she will never awaken, I can't say that I would do anything differently. That being said, I do not believe that society should foot the bill to keep her alive. Private donations, perhaps by way of a foundation set up in her name would be acceptable to me. Either way, if the decision were left up to me, I couldn't do it. I'm not a very religious person, but this family is in my prayers and has my deepest and most sincere sympathies.

[3rdnlng]

If the family has the means to keep her on life support, then I see no reason why they shouldnt . this isn't about the girl having some kind of miraculous recovery, its about the family's difficulty dealing with such an unexpected tragedy and the loss of an innocent child at the most difficult time of the year for such a thing to happen (there's probably unopened Christmas gifts with her name on them that shell never see). Even facing the fact that she will never awaken, I can't say that I would do anything differently. That being said, I do not believe that society should foot the bill to keep her alive. Private donations, perhaps by way of a foundation set up in her name would be acceptable to me. Either way, if the decision were left up to me, I couldn't do it. I'm not a very religious person, but this family is in my prayers and has my deepest and most sincere sympathies.

 

I tend to agree with you here, but the wishes of the person on life support need to be taken into consideration. Anybody who has the ability to make that decision should know what the person would want. With that said, that's not an everyday discussion you have with a youngster. Practically, the decision I had to make was easy, emotionally very, very difficult.

[Chef Jim]

Koko didn't say definitively that he or his family had to make that decision. That's where the "might" came from. Everyone can speculate on what they would do, but when it comes time to make the decision it's very easy to put it off, just in case there's some miracle in the next few days.

 

A doctor comes to me and says my wife is brain dead I'm pulling the plug ASAP. There is no coming back from where that little girl is and the family is being terribly irrational and selfish and the media is having a field day with it especially here.

[Azalin]

I tend to agree with you here, but the wishes of the person on life support need to be taken into consideration. Anybody who has the ability to make that decision should know what the person would want. With that said, that's not an everyday discussion you have with a youngster. Practically, the decision I had to make was easy, emotionally very, very difficult.

yeah, I agree with this. I'm sorry to know that you were put in that position yourself. there are some things in life that I know I will face someday, but I dread the thought nonetheless.

[boyst]

Ok, I didn't know we had personal experiences that we would use to weigh. Best example of mine is perfect. My gramps nice had a stroke at age 29? She was a teacher and overcame a lot of crap in her family. She was raised by her grandmother and after the stroke the only word she could say was "grandmother.". From a young age I knew my stance on this system, however this woman was not brain dead. She had the ability to recognize basics. Excite her and it'd show in her word, upset her and it'd show. If you presented her with a present she looked at you and said it almost questionably because she was confused. She could barely walk on a device that would support 90% of her weight and fully !love her arms. She was a terrific person. Ut was regarded as very intelligent in life. Her mother, my great aunt and gramps sister kept her alive though she could not feed herself we'll, if at all, depending on the day. She was on life support, mind you the early 1980s at latest, when this happened, and the plug could have been pulled because they knew she was going to be a talking potato.

 

Fast forward from Betty to my Gramps and he had went in to a coma from thyroid cancer. He was kept alive for 2 1/2 days. 10% or less he would wake up. He did. Middle of the night, he did. He was able to talk, function fully for his age - 93. He remembered things I told him when he was unconscious. He told me what he thought of it, etc. He couldn't close his hand and squeeze but you could tell he was holding your hand and his heart rate etc would talk despite experts saying be was "out.". My momma talked to him, an only child, and HE! Decided if it happens again he wants to go. About an hour and a half later he was unconscious again, kept on life support, which was minimal at this time but included a feeding tube. The horny ghuy said he wasn't going to die feeling hungry because he lived a good life and felt hungry too much too many times as a lot kid. Anyway, whole in a coma he was the same, but by 12 hours later the hand holding consisted of more of a hand, the vitals just leveled out. He was in palliative care, as he requested, for 7 hours before he passed. He waited until my mom got there from work to go. He told her he would wait when it was time to let her say goodbye.

 

The power of the mind is great. The power of the spirit is more so. Thanks for letting me share this but the moral of the story is that we knew when to say goodbye,so did he. In Jahi's case I think her spirit/soul/being is still there but the device carrying it is dead and left it trapped Ina room without without windows doors or evena cup to put to the walls. Her parents should let her go but I will not say they should let her die - sadly, she is already dead.

 

A doctor comes to me and says my wife is brain dead I'm pulling the plug ASAP. There is no coming back from where that little girl is and the family is being terribly irrational and selfish and the media is having a field day with it especially here.

by the way, just for fun put it in your living will to let us decide.

 

I mean, in all seriousness we would serve you best in many cases. Heck,some are probably ready to pull it not.

[3rdnlng]

Ok, I didn't know we had personal experiences that we would use to weigh. Best example of mine is perfect. My gramps nice had a stroke at age 29? She was a teacher and overcame a lot of crap in her family. She was raised by her grandmother and after the stroke the only word she could say was "grandmother.". From a young age I knew my stance on this system, however this woman was not brain dead. She had the ability to recognize basics. Excite her and it'd show in her word, upset her and it'd show. If you presented her with a present she looked at you and said it almost questionably because she was confused. She could barely walk on a device that would support 90% of her weight and fully !love her arms. She was a terrific person. Ut was regarded as very intelligent in life. Her mother, my great aunt and gramps sister kept her alive though she could not feed herself we'll, if at all, depending on the day. She was on life support, mind you the early 1980s at latest, when this happened, and the plug could have been pulled because they knew she was going to be a talking potato.

 

Fast forward from Betty to my Gramps and he had went in to a coma from thyroid cancer. He was kept alive for 2 1/2 days. 10% or less he would wake up. He did. Middle of the night, he did. He was able to talk, function fully for his age - 93. He remembered things I told him when he was unconscious. He told me what he thought of it, etc. He couldn't close his hand and squeeze but you could tell he was holding your hand and his heart rate etc would talk despite experts saying be was "out.". My momma talked to him, an only child, and HE! Decided if it happens again he wants to go. About an hour and a half later he was unconscious again, kept on life support, which was minimal at this time but included a feeding tube. The horny ghuy said he wasn't going to die feeling hungry because he lived a good life and felt hungry too much too many times as a lot kid. Anyway, whole in a coma he was the same, but by 12 hours later the hand holding consisted of more of a hand, the vitals just leveled out. He was in palliative care, as he requested, for 7 hours before he passed. He waited until my mom got there from work to go. He told her he would wait when it was time to let her say goodbye.

 

The power of the mind is great. The power of the spirit is more so. Thanks for letting me share this but the moral of the story is that we knew when to say goodbye,so did he. In Jahi's case I think her spirit/soul/being is still there but the device carrying it is dead and left it trapped Ina room without without windows doors or evena cup to put to the walls. Her parents should let her go but I will not say they should let her die - sadly, she is already dead.

 

by the way, just for fun put it in your living will to let us decide.

 

I mean, in all seriousness we would serve you best in many cases. Heck,some are probably ready to pull it not.

 

We all might disagree on the particulars but can agree on the end result.

[boyst]

We all might disagree on the particulars but can agree on the end result.

for Jim or Jahi? Because in the end I think Jim has been dead inside for much longer.

[3rdnlng]

for Jim or Jahi? Because in the end I think Jim has been dead inside for much longer.

Chef Jim?

[OCinBuffalo]

She was raised by her grandmother and after the stroke the only word she could say was "grandmother."

Please don't take this the wrong way, as I've had a similar situation in my family, and it's tough.....

 

...but....(giggle)

 

Hey, at least you lucked out with the one word being "grandmother", right? . Other words might have been less....sweet. In absolute seriousness, it's nice that her one word was "grandmother" given the background. That actually makes me , for real.

 

 

 

As for my story? Cautionary tale. My poor mother was left, on her own, to make the same decision about my father's father. She decided to keep things going, because this way all my father's brothers would get a chance to fly in and say goodbye. Seems reasonable, compassionate, etc., right?

 

Wrong.

 

What she had no way of knowing: my grandfather's specific condition + laws of NYS + the 3 Doctors approach to "care" = my grandfather was turned into a sort of science experiment for the next 30 days, and the only person who could have legally made the decision to end it, my grandmother, was diagnosed with dimensia 3 months prior...no joy there. It was the worst possible thing that could have happened..

 

Thus, my mom was left holding the bag, and was literally asked "how could you have been so stupid/cruel".

 

Which....is F'ed up every way there is, because she was put on the spot and asked to make a call with 0 notice and 0 time to consider....all because she voluteered to be there for a few hours. (No good deed...) I took care of the quesitioner by asking them the same question, about their question. But, not too harshly. People are extremely dumb in grief. I'd rather have grief-stupified family member who cared, than one who doesn't. But, it doesn't make the dumb any easier to deal with.

 

I think that's largely what's in play in the story above: people being extremely dumb in grief.

 

Moral of the story: living will, kept up to date, for everybody, because you literally never know. Also, educate yourself about end-of-life, and make as many not-in-grief decisions as you can, ahead of time. There are plenty of good books and resources onlne. It's Boy Scouts: Be Prepared. Intentional, ongoing, consistent, and productive communication is a huge help too.

 

With my grandfather, we failed to do all of that. It wasn't for a lack of trying from some in the group. It was due to a lack of responsiveness, and perhaps...maturity, from others.

[Doc]

It's sad, but this girl is brain dead. Keeping her alive is only for selfish reasons and won't bring her back.

[3rdnlng]

It's sad, but this girl is brain dead. Keeping her alive is only for selfish reasons and won't bring her back.

 

Doc, that may be true, but you guys need to know that your proclamations that there is still hope make a ton of us think that there is still hope. I think I'd rather have a definitive answer right away.

Edited January 6, 2014 by 3rdnlng

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Doc, that may be true, but you guys need to know that your proclamations that there is still hope make a ton of us think that there is still hope. I think I'd rather have a definitive answer right away.

Brain dead means no hope.

[3rdnlng]

 

Brain dead means no hope.

 

When a doctor tells you there is hope for several days and then abruptly tells you there is no hope it tends to make a person question the prognosis, at least for awhile. Thanks for you explanation anyway, I'd always wondered about that.

[Doc]

When a doctor tells you there is hope for several days and then abruptly tells you there is no hope it tends to make a person question the prognosis, at least for awhile. Thanks for you explanation anyway, I'd always wondered about that.

Brain death is irreversible, unlike coma. And there are certain criteria that need to be met to be declared brain dead (basically in absence of hypothermia or drugs, not breathing on your own, flat EEG, and absence of cerebral circulation). I'm assuming she met these, since they're saying she's brain dead. So while they might have been hoping she'd recover in those first few days, it didn't happen and the family is just trying to keep her around because they mistakenly think she's alive (the mother is claims she's breathing on her own, which she isn't, and that she'd reacting to her touch, when it's probably a primitive reflex arc like decerebrate posturing) and people are giving them bad advice.

[OCinBuffalo]

Brain death is irreversible, unlike coma. And there are certain criteria that need to be met to be declared brain dead (basically in absence of hypothermia or drugs, not breathing on your own, flat EEG, and absence of cerebral circulation). I'm assuming she met these, since they're saying she's brain dead. So while they might have been hoping she'd recover in those first few days, it didn't happen and the family is just trying to keep her around because they mistakenly think she's alive (the mother is claims she's breathing on her own, which she isn't, and that she'd reacting to her touch, when it's probably a primitive reflex arc like decerebrate posturing) and people are giving them bad advice.

Frankly, and I have nothing to back this up but, I think what we have here might be a confluence of grief and shyster lawyers.

 

If they can prove even one of the things the mother said, however tenuously, it's just more fodder for the lawsuit that is absolutely coming.

 

The lead-up to this says that a lawsuit was a certainty anyway, but, if they can prove any of these things, that may just add a zero, or more, to the settlement.

[Doc]

Frankly, and I have nothing to back this up but, I think what we have here might be a confluence of grief and shyster lawyers.

 

If they can prove even one of the things the mother said, however tenuously, it's just more fodder for the lawsuit that is absolutely coming.

 

The lead-up to this says that a lawsuit was a certainty anyway, but, if they can prove any of these things, that may just add a zero, or more, to the settlement.

I agree a lawsuit is coming, but I'd bet they won't be able to refute that she's brain dead. You get more money for expensive long-term care than for death, and it's possible they hired a shyster who gave them bad advice and told them to claim she's alive so as to get more money. But it won't work.

[Wacka]

She's pining for he fjords. She wouldn't move if you put 10,000 volts through her.

[Koko78]

I agree a lawsuit is coming, but I'd bet they won't be able to refute that she's brain dead. You get more money for expensive long-term care than for death, and it's possible they hired a shyster who gave them bad advice and told them to claim she's alive so as to get more money. But it won't work.

 

The "family lawyer" is already trying to set up the lawsuit:

 

Her mother, Nailah Winkfield, refusing to believe her daughter is dead as long as her heart is beating...

 

The family's lawyer, Christopher Dolan, said Jahi's condition suffered because of poor nutrition during her hospital stay. "We are very relieved she got safely to where she needed to be," he said.

 

"She's in very bad shape," he said. "You would be too, if you hadn't had nutrition in 26 days and were a sick little girl to begin with."

http://news.yahoo.com/girl-declared-brain-dead-moved-hospital-084442930.html

 

Sad thing is that there's enough stupid jurors out there that they'll have a good shot at finding people who will ignore the whole she's dead thing and award the family an obnoxious amount of money for her pain and suffering, etc.

[DC Tom]

The "family lawyer" is already trying to set up the lawsuit:

 

 

http://news.yahoo.co...-084442930.html

 

Sad thing is that there's enough stupid jurors out there that they'll have a good shot at finding people who will ignore the whole she's dead thing and award the family an obnoxious amount of money for her pain and suffering, etc.

 

If her heart's beating, take her off the machines.

 

That would kinda-sorta establish the difference between "her heart's beating" and "her heart's not beating, machines are doing it."