For those who have watched Manuel

[snamsnoops]

Just so everyone remembers comparing Manuel to Brady after beating Carolina in week 2. Maybe similarly we shouldn't jump to conclusions in the other direction after one bad game.

I support this statement!

[Saint Doug]

I think Buddy Nix hiring Marrone and drafting EJ then stepping down was a very calculated move. I think it was Billick who said a GM becomes tied to the QB he selects and lives and dies by him. In the Bills case, Nix made his choices, then fell on his sword. While he may have had input, Whaley technically was not responsible for Marrone and EJ and could emerge unscathed if the current iteration of the Bills doesn't work out.

[dayman]

I think Buddy Nix hiring Marrone and drafting EJ then stepping down was a very calculated move. I think it was Billick who said a GM becomes tied to the QB he selects and lives and dies by him. In the Bills case, Nix made his choices, then fell on his sword. While he may have had input, Whaley technically was not responsible for Marrone and EJ and could emerge unscathed if the current iteration of the Bills doesn't work out.

 

They can only slip out of this if they make a point not to tie themselves to it anyway. If EJ continue to be terrible and we do nothing in the offseason and trot him out again next season....it's their disaster imo.

[Leelee Phoenix]

I think Buddy Nix hiring Marrone and drafting EJ then stepping down was a very calculated move.

I really hope it just wasn't to draft a QB for his legacy, like he said a few times before that. If so, that's how bad teams are run.

 

But, the cynic in me thinks this was the case, considering how reverent the Bills were when Buddy stepped down. Like the guy accomplished anything here.

[dayman]

I really hope it just wasn't to draft a QB for his legacy, like he said a few times before that. If so, that's how bad teams are run.

 

But, the cynic in me thinks this was the case, considering how reverent the Bills were when Buddy stepped down. Like the guy accomplished anything here.

 

He openly admitted he wanted to draft a QB high before he left.

[Ronin]

I support this statement!

 

The statement is incorrect, he's had four bad games, not one. Two good ones to start the season. He's moving backwards.

 

That's usually the signs that there wasn't any film to work with, etc., for opposing DCs, but now that it's available things are different.

 

Either way, between glaring inaccuracy issues that simply don't seem to improve, and other significant issues, it's a lot for a rookie QB to shake out at this point. He should be working on refining his game, not fundamentals at this point. Granted, no one ever said they were expecxting a seasoned NFL vet by this point, but some progress would be nice. He can't put string more than 20 minutes of accurately throwing the ball together.

 

How's he going to improve to the level of competenet NFL QB until he gets that basic fundamental squared away. And not that that's his only fundamental issue, people have mentioned others here as well.

[NewEra]

I reaaaaaaalllllly hope that EJ can be our QB of the future. He's still very raw with considerable upside. I just have a feeling he's going to be a bust. Maybe I'm overreacting to one very bad game, but his inability to pull the trigger on deep balls really scares the crap out of me. Hopefully it's the coaching staff holding him back for the time being.

[Ronin]

He openly admitted he wanted to draft a QB high before he left.

 

That's the problem with this organization though, instead of waiting for a Draft like this one coming up to grab a QB, they pin themselves into a corner to where they are in a position to all but have to draft a player in a certain position in a draft that features a dearth of players at that position, like last year.

 

Instead of Brandon then putting his marketing skills and sense to use, drafting a player in a positon that's much stronger for that position, this organization forces a square peg into a round hole, all but eliminates themselves from contention of drafting a QB this year, and forces the issue, all the while trying to convince themselves that they had to have a QB, in this case Manuel.

 

Well that's all fine and dandy, but then when it doesn't work out you've left yourself few options and have essentially gone all-in on , in this case, Manuel.

 

Is that wise? I don't think so. Seems to me that in the case of a team like the Bills where you pretty much have a blank slate with only a handful of players penned in, that you've got quite a bit of lattitude for a two-year rebuild. Take your QB the next season and build other parts of it.

 

But that's not the way that we do things in Buffalo, soundly that is. Here we are reactionary and go on knee-jerk reactions and then create the marketing for them after the fact and ignore any facts that aren't convenient for us to BILL-ieve.

 

Will that approach change? Why should or will it? The same people have been running things for years. Anyone thinking that Whaley is any different from the Donahoe management tree is merely deluding themselves.

 

Manuel's got 6 more games to start showing some improvement, but there's no reason to think that it's going to happen given his track record thus far.

 

If he were going to justify the team's faith in him in drafting him so early, then he wouldn't be working on things like accuracy, footwork, and working on reads after his primary option right now.

 

I think Buddy Nix hiring Marrone and drafting EJ then stepping down was a very calculated move. I think it was Billick who said a GM becomes tied to the QB he selects and lives and dies by him. In the Bills case, Nix made his choices, then fell on his sword. While he may have had input, Whaley technically was not responsible for Marrone and EJ and could emerge unscathed if the current iteration of the Bills doesn't work out.

 

It's naive to think that Whaley had nothing to do with the decision since they clearly knew that it would rest on his tenure. Also, we keep hearing about what a modern GM wonder boy Whaley is, but on the one hand we are to understand that all of the positive decisions for this team since he's been with it have to do with him, but then things like hiring Marrone and the selecting of Manuel he has absolutely no hand in?

 

Does that really make any sense to anyone? We can say that he's only been a wallflower for three/four years, but then let's not insist that there's any basis for making him out to be something that he's not even come close to proving yet, or, we can contrarily say that he's been in on the decision making and therefore takes at least some responsibility for Marrone and Manuel. We cannot have it both ways tho try as people here may try to do so.

 

I agree with you, I think it was a very calculated move, but think about who's running things, a marketer.

 

I think it was a calculated move to insulate Whaley to every extent possible by "making this Nix's doing," thereby trying to give Whaley a stay of execution when things don't work out.

 

Will it work? Only to the extent that fans are gullible, which seems to be pretty much the case. That's been working like a charm since the day that they hired Donahoe. If you're the team, why try to change anything now. There's no need to. They're getting their money from the fans that give it to them.

 

They can only slip out of this if they make a point not to tie themselves to it anyway. If EJ continue to be terrible and we do nothing in the offseason and trot him out again next season....it's their disaster imo.

 

Their options are limited. Let's not forget, they reached for Manuel according to 90% of draft evaluators or more.

 

Why? Because they "had to have him," he "was their guy." Well, OK, now he's their guy. Everyone here and elsewhere defending the move tried to tell us how the Whaley front office had changed and how Marrone was a good hire, etc.

 

If they can't identify a QB without obvious issues and ones that were known prior to the Draft, then it hardly makes them look competent. Also, can they really draft a QB this upcoming Draft without losing face? Clearly not since they'd have to admit that they didn't know what they were doing this year.

 

They can try to insulate Whaley, but there's no insulating Marrone.

 

If Whaley wasn't in on the decision to hire Marrone, he can fire him at season's end and use that as the reason. He won't because he was in on it. It's silly and naive to think that he wasn't. I doubt that Nix had any respect at all from anyone at OBD this past offseason.

 

Either way, the only thing that's going to make this staff look even less competent than reaching for an issue-laden QB in a "he's our guy" manner it would be drafting another QB this upcoming Draft.

 

So Manuel's here for '14 too for better or for worse. Hopefully they'll fix the OL, get a 3-down RB, and find another good WR or TE to at least try to make the most of their past "he's our guy" investment.

 

But you can't make "he's our guy" statements amidst questionable decision making otherwise and not expect a rash of justifiable criticism if the decision backfires.

 

I reaaaaaaalllllly hope that EJ can be our QB of the future. He's still very raw with considerable upside. I just have a feeling he's going to be a bust. Maybe I'm overreacting to one very bad game, but his inability to pull the trigger on deep balls really scares the crap out of me. Hopefully it's the coaching staff holding him back for the time being.

 

Your concerns are justifed. So is your hope, but as we all know what we want and hope for is a lot different than reality in Buffalo.

 

I've posted this article a number of times now. It highlights the issues that Manuel had at FSU better than anyone that I've ever read and by two guys that saw every game he played in and had some contacts at FSU football.

 

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/4/25/4264734/nfl-draft-2013-ej-manuel-next-level-florida-state

 

The type of things that these guys talk about that would hold him back in the NFL have clearly materialized. I have absolutely no trouble to deferring to two guys that watched every snap of Manuel's career at FSU and know his play well.

 

Either way,. the shortcomings are the same. "Inconsistency at the fundamental aspects of QB play."

[Kemp2Warlick]

thank you for this link http://www.tomahawkn...l-florida-state ,it confirms what I thought when watching EJ in college

[San-O]

They can only slip out of this if they make a point not to tie themselves to it anyway. If EJ continue to be terrible and we do nothing in the offseason and trot him out again next season....it's their disaster imo.

 

They need to draft another QB in 2014, regardless, IMO. E.J. has been bad, and getting worse.

 

I really hope it just wasn't to draft a QB for his legacy, like he said a few times before that. If so, that's how bad teams are run.

 

But, the cynic in me thinks this was the case, considering how reverent the Bills were when Buddy stepped down. Like the guy accomplished anything here.

 

+ 1

 

I really didn't like hearing the statements about drafting a QB before he leaves. His personnel decisions were subpar, and I can't imagine why they

let him have any input to the 2013 draft knowing he was on the way out.

 

The statement is incorrect, he's had four bad games, not one. Two good ones to start the season. He's moving backwards.

 

That's usually the signs that there wasn't any film to work with, etc., for opposing DCs, but now that it's available things are different.

 

Either way, between glaring inaccuracy issues that simply don't seem to improve, and other significant issues, it's a lot for a rookie QB to shake out at this point. He should be working on refining his game, not fundamentals at this point. Granted, no one ever said they were expecxting a seasoned NFL vet by this point, but some progress would be nice. He can't put string more than 20 minutes of accurately throwing the ball together.

 

How's he going to improve to the level of competenet NFL QB until he gets that basic fundamental squared away. And not that that's his only fundamental issue, people have mentioned others here as well.

 

Many of his completions are to backs still in the backfield who run for gains. I would like to see the stats re: passes completed over the LOS, and over 20 yards.

 

His his other stats are near the bottom of the league.

[Orton's Arm]

 

 

That's the problem with this organization though, instead of waiting for a Draft like this one coming up to grab a QB, they pin themselves into a corner to where they are in a position to all but have to draft a player in a certain position in a draft that features a dearth of players at that position, like last year.

 

Instead of Brandon then putting his marketing skills and sense to use, drafting a player in a positon that's much stronger for that position, this organization forces a square peg into a round hole, all but eliminates themselves from contention of drafting a QB this year, and forces the issue, all the while trying to convince themselves that they had to have a QB, in this case Manuel.

 

Well that's all fine and dandy, but then when it doesn't work out you've left yourself few options and have essentially gone all-in on , in this case, Manuel.

 

Is that wise? I don't think so. Seems to me that in the case of a team like the Bills where you pretty much have a blank slate with only a handful of players penned in, that you've got quite a bit of lattitude for a two-year rebuild. Take your QB the next season and build other parts of it.

 

But that's not the way that we do things in Buffalo, soundly that is. Here we are reactionary and go on knee-jerk reactions and then create the marketing for them after the fact and ignore any facts that aren't convenient for us to BILL-ieve.

 

Will that approach change? Why should or will it? The same people have been running things for years. Anyone thinking that Whaley is any different from the Donahoe management tree is merely deluding themselves.

 

Manuel's got 6 more games to start showing some improvement, but there's no reason to think that it's going to happen given his track record thus far.

 

If he were going to justify the team's faith in him in drafting him so early, then he wouldn't be working on things like accuracy, footwork, and working on reads after his primary option right now.

 

 

 

It's naive to think that Whaley had nothing to do with the decision since they clearly knew that it would rest on his tenure. Also, we keep hearing about what a modern GM wonder boy Whaley is, but on the one hand we are to understand that all of the positive decisions for this team since he's been with it have to do with him, but then things like hiring Marrone and the selecting of Manuel he has absolutely no hand in?

 

Does that really make any sense to anyone? We can say that he's only been a wallflower for three/four years, but then let's not insist that there's any basis for making him out to be something that he's not even come close to proving yet, or, we can contrarily say that he's been in on the decision making and therefore takes at least some responsibility for Marrone and Manuel. We cannot have it both ways tho try as people here may try to do so.

 

I agree with you, I think it was a very calculated move, but think about who's running things, a marketer.

 

I think it was a calculated move to insulate Whaley to every extent possible by "making this Nix's doing," thereby trying to give Whaley a stay of execution when things don't work out.

 

Will it work? Only to the extent that fans are gullible, which seems to be pretty much the case. That's been working like a charm since the day that they hired Donahoe. If you're the team, why try to change anything now. There's no need to. They're getting their money from the fans that give it to them.

 

 

 

Their options are limited. Let's not forget, they reached for Manuel according to 90% of draft evaluators or more.

 

Why? Because they "had to have him," he "was their guy." Well, OK, now he's their guy. Everyone here and elsewhere defending the move tried to tell us how the Whaley front office had changed and how Marrone was a good hire, etc.

 

If they can't identify a QB without obvious issues and ones that were known prior to the Draft, then it hardly makes them look competent. Also, can they really draft a QB this upcoming Draft without losing face? Clearly not since they'd have to admit that they didn't know what they were doing this year.

 

They can try to insulate Whaley, but there's no insulating Marrone.

 

If Whaley wasn't in on the decision to hire Marrone, he can fire him at season's end and use that as the reason. He won't because he was in on it. It's silly and naive to think that he wasn't. I doubt that Nix had any respect at all from anyone at OBD this past offseason.

 

Either way, the only thing that's going to make this staff look even less competent than reaching for an issue-laden QB in a "he's our guy" manner it would be drafting another QB this upcoming Draft.

 

So Manuel's here for '14 too for better or for worse. Hopefully they'll fix the OL, get a 3-down RB, and find another good WR or TE to at least try to make the most of their past "he's our guy" investment.

 

But you can't make "he's our guy" statements amidst questionable decision making otherwise and not expect a rash of justifiable criticism if the decision backfires.

 

 

 

Your concerns are justifed. So is your hope, but as we all know what we want and hope for is a lot different than reality in Buffalo.

 

I've posted this article a number of times now. It highlights the issues that Manuel had at FSU better than anyone that I've ever read and by two guys that saw every game he played in and had some contacts at FSU football.

 

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/4/25/4264734/nfl-draft-2013-ej-manuel-next-level-florida-state

 

The type of things that these guys talk about that would hold him back in the NFL have clearly materialized. I have absolutely no trouble to deferring to two guys that watched every snap of Manuel's career at FSU and know his play well.

 

Either way,. the shortcomings are the same. "Inconsistency at the fundamental aspects of QB play."

 

Great post! Anyone who hasn't yet taken the time to read the above is in for a very informative and insightful read.

 

Also, the article to which you linked did an excellent job of dispelling some of the myths which have arisen around Manuel. The authors clearly know their stuff.

 

At this point, the best I can hope for is that the egg for the Manuel pick splashes on Buddy's face more than Whaley's. (Thus freeing Whaley to use a first round pick on a QB in 2014.) I don't know how realistic that is; but a man can always hope.

 

The Manuel pick represents a combination of mistakes the Bills made in the 2004 draft and 2006 draft.

 

2004 draft: They used a first round pick on a QB with great physical tools who'd never proved himself as a pocket passer in college

2006 draft: They locked into two positions (SS and DT); and concluded that their first two picks of the draft had to be used on those positions. That's how they ended up with a deeply disappointing SS and an outright bust at DT.

 

I'd like to at least see the Bills make new mistakes, instead of repeating the same old mistakes over and over. Changing the kinds of mistakes they make would at least show they're learning.

[8-8 Forever?]

We will find out a lot in the Jets game b/c Jets will stuff and eliminate the run game right away with 8 in the box and force EJ to throw to 4th string WRs. This could get very ugly or we could learn that the kid can throw it 40 times with some effectiveness. This is the first game I can remember where EJ will simply have to beat the other team by throwing it. should be interesting. as with all Bills games this year, who the heck knows what will happen. team is completely utterly unpredictable.

[KikO M G]

Let's stop speculating and actually look at the stats for EJ's first 6 games. Great article:

 

http://www.buffalowins.com/buffalo-bills/articles/beyond-the-stats-from-weinke-to-ej-volume-iv.html

[Tcali]

great posts Tasker.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I am happy overall with Manuels play thusfar,

 

:blink:

 

even if you're a total homer he has been less than expected and poor overall.

[San-O]

Let's stop speculating and actually look at the stats for EJ's first 6 games. Great article:

 

http://www.buffalowi...-volume-iv.html

 

 

Here are some statistics compiled by Football Outsiders, which show E.J. ranked 30th or below in basically each of the 4 statisitical categories they have.

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/QB

[TXBILLSFAN]

I think Buddy Nix hiring Marrone and drafting EJ then stepping down was a very calculated move. I think it was Billick who said a GM becomes tied to the QB he selects and lives and dies by him. In the Bills case, Nix made his choices, then fell on his sword. While he may have had input, Whaley technically was not responsible for Marrone and EJ and could emerge unscathed if the current iteration of the Bills doesn't work out.

Let's not start this again -- this was Whaley's draft -- EJ is Whaley's pick -- to be honest, a 1st round QB is an organizational pick -- so, it's Marrone, Whaley and Brandon --- Buddy had input, but final decision was Whaley and with a 1st round QB -- it requires consensus --- this has been stated by several current and ex-GM's --

 

As for Manuel --- I agree with a lot of the posts -- here's my take:

 

Positives (+): Composure, Character, Quick release, Arm strength, Mobility/Athleticism and Confidence

Negatives (-1): Inconsistent Accuracy (I see this on ALL throws right now, short, medium and long) AND Decision Making (I think his failure to make the deeper throws and check down is a sign of poor decision making as much as anything)

 

Outlook: Uncertain. If he can't significantly improve accuracy he will wash out. I think decision making will come with more playing time, accuracy, I'm not as confident

[jumbalaya]

EJs biggest problem is he is made of glass and cannot stay on the field. It's not very good when you only play half the games. We will have to draft another QB #1 in 2014 because we won't know what we have in this guy, except that he can't stay on the field.

[IronyAbounds]

thank you for this link http://www.tomahawkn...l-florida-state ,it confirms what I thought when watching EJ in college

 

I too thank you for the link, It confirms in my mind that the Bills drafting EJ in the first round was a bridge too far. I was ready for Fitz to go, but given the lousy QBs in the 2013 draft and the Bills being under the salary cap this year, they would have been better off waiting a year to draft the franchise QB. As many have noted, they won't draft another QB in 2014, so unless EJ turns things around the Bills are stuck with mediocre QB play for the next few years.

[Boatdrinks]

I too thank you for the link, It confirms in my mind that the Bills drafting EJ in the first round was a bridge too far. I was ready for Fitz to go, but given the lousy QBs in the 2013 draft and the Bills being under the salary cap this year, they would have been better off waiting a year to draft the franchise QB. As many have noted, they won't draft another QB in 2014, so unless EJ turns things around the Bills are stuck with mediocre QB play for the next few years.

 

Don't you think IF there was a QB the Bills were hugely excited about that would be available in 2014, that they WOULD HAVE passed on drafting a QB in 2013 and shored up another position of need with a potential impact player? Perhaps they just aren't that impressed by any of them, or did not see them as being appreciably better. No one was exactly forcing them to take a QB. They had (still have) big needs at WR, TE and the OL, plus LB on the defensive side. There isn't exactly an Andrew Luck-type prospect in 2014. They must have felt 2013 was as good a time as any. Then there is the highly unlikely theory being thrown about that they drafted one knowing they could blame Nix if it didn't work out in 2013, then just use another first rounder in 2014. Which do you think is more likely?