RyanC883 Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 Some guys with higher salaries like Kolb, Pears, maybe Brad Smith should be gone too I would agree with that. They are all backup players making too much. Need to draft well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBUffalo Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 (edited) Base salary and cap hit aren't the same thing... With that said, Mario will "restructure" his deal. Basically he got a two year deal with the chance for more that will almost 100% be picked up. So, to make him feel more secure, they'll restructure his salary into roster bonuses that he'll receive up front that will bring his cap number down. Edited September 11, 2013 by DStebb716 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted September 11, 2013 Author Share Posted September 11, 2013 Base salary and cap hit aren't the same thing... With that said, Mario will "restructure" his deal. Basically he got a two year deal with the chance for more that will almost 100% be picked up. So, to make him feel more secure, they'll restructure his salary into roster bonuses that he'll receive up front that will bring his cap number down. nobody has said base salary and cap hit are the same. the only way Mario would accept a restructure is to ADD years, dollars and more upfront money, which the bills will not do. Mario has received so much money upfront that he doesn't care if they cut him, he gets to keep it all and will simply decline any restructuring talk. 3/15/2012: Signed a six-year, $96 million contract. The deal contains $50 million guaranteed, including a $19 million signing bonus and all of Williams' 2012 and 2013 base salaries. Another $4 million is available through incentives. Williams is eligible for an annual $500,000 workout bonus in years two through six. 2013: $6.5 million (+ $8 million option bonus), 2014: $1.9 million (+ $10.6 million roster bonus), 2015: $12.1 million (+ $1 million roster bonus), 2016: $11.5 million (+ $2.5 million roster bonus), 2017: $11.4 million (+ $3.5 million roster bonus), 2018: Free Agent http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3636/mario-williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted September 11, 2013 Share Posted September 11, 2013 (edited) I want to know how a team with so few stars on it is as close to the cap as we are. How can teams like the 9ers, Cowboys, Giants, Eagles, Packers, Pats (before this year) keep all of their players around while we cannot? Edited September 11, 2013 by peterpan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 I want to know how a team with so few stars on it is as close to the cap as we are. How can teams like the 9ers, Cowboys, Giants, Eagles, Packers, Pats (before this year) keep all of their players around while we cannot? here's a link to the player salary cap of every team, just click on the team helmet of your choosing: http://www.sportscity.com/nfl/salaries/dallas-cowboys-salaries/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) Maybe we are getting all tied up in semantics about what it means to "re-roll" unused cap room. The following link is to just a Seattle fan's blog, but it relays a tweeted explanation provided by Brian McIntyre (a guy who writes a blog on the nfl.com site). It shows that a team's unused cap room from 2011 can be carried over to 2012 and added to the league-wide standard cap for 2012. That higher, combined figure then becomes the team's adjusted cap for 2012. If the team spends less than its adjusted 2012 cap figure in 2012, it can then carry over the full amount of the unused 2012 adjusted cap to 2013. Each year a team can only roll over the unused part of that same year's adjusted salary cap to the next year, but there is never any need to subtract out the amount of unused salary cap from some earlier year. http://www.fieldgull...kings-rolloever No, I don't believe we are arguing semantics here.....I am saying that what you are saying is incorrect. The first link you provided states..... "I had erroneously hoped that a team could keep growing its adjusted salary cap, but alas -- it does reset and the rollover is pegged to the "base" NFL salary cap each year." He then goes on to analyze the Seahawks 2013 cap year. As the rule didn't come into effect until the 2012 season, the 2013 year was not dealing with a re-rollover situation. He does not comment on the 2014 cap year(or a re-rollover applicable year) apart from his initial quote above. For the life of me I can't find the official link that I had found previously (just a bunch of team focused "journalist" links), but the spotrac link I found clearly states.... "Does it continue to rollover like cellphone minutes? No. Rollover money from 2012 into 2013 is treated as "adjusted cap". Any unused "adjusted" money in 2013 cannot be rolled over again into 2014." The only way it can work as you are suggesting (that monies obtained from a previous rollover can be used in the following year), is if the "adjusted" money is reduced first when spending, leaving "actual" cap dollars to remain.....thus allowing them to be rolled over into the following years cap. This of course makes no logical sense as it would make the 2 quotes above irrelevant. I really want to be able to provide a link to an NFL source here to definitively clear things up as I don't like relying on logic on an internet forum(for obvious reasons). However, the 2 quotes above clearly suggest that the rule is in place to disallow "adjusted" cap dollars being re-rolled over into the following year. Edited September 12, 2013 by Dibs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Pretty sure Mario will be restructured...no way they allow an 18+ mil cap hit to hit the books and how will he feed his family?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) The first link you provided states..... "I had erroneously hoped that a team could keep growing its adjusted salary cap, but alas -- it does reset and the rollover is pegged to the "base" NFL salary cap each year." He then goes on to analyze the Seahawks 2013 cap year. [No, he doesn't, he goes on to analyze the Seahawks 2012 cap year - - see below] As the rule didn't come into effect until the 2012 season, the 2013 year was not dealing with a re-rollover situation. He does not comment on the 2014 cap year(or a re-rollover applicable year) apart from his initial quote above. 1 Take a closer look at what the Seahawk blogger wrote AFTER he communicated with McIntyre. Here's the relevant part: http://www.fieldgull...kings-rolloever In the Seahawks case, I deduce that they spent $99M in salary cap in 2011, since the NFL league cap was $120M and they rolled $21M. There are things called "adjustments," which I won't get into in this blog, but the 2013 Seahawks Adjusted Cap worked out to be $143M (it's not as simple as $120 + $21 = $141M).Right now the Seahawks are spending $134.5M in 2012 salary cap, and have $8.5M in cap room. If the Seahawks do not cut any of their 51 highest paid players out of the 89 currently on the roster, they will be able to roll $8.5M into 2013. The phrase I bolded above contains an obvious typo when you look at the numbers. Yes, the Seahawks blogger said that "the 2013 Seahawks Adjusted Cap worked out to be $143M" - - but that makes no sense. He wrote that blog entry on July 17, 2012, at a time when there was no way for him to know exactly what the 2013 Adjusted Cap figure would be. That's why his very next sentence states - - "Right now the Seahawks are spending $134.5M in 2012 salary cap, and have $8.5M in cap room." 134.5M spent in 2012 plus 8.5M in remaining 2012 cap room = $143M as the adjusted cap figure for 2012, not 2013. The first time I posted the Seahawks blogger's entry I inserted "[sic]" after the word 2013 to indicate that there was a typo in what the blogger originally wrote, because he must have meant 2012 at that point in the text. So in fact, although there was an obvious typo, the Seahawks blogger was indeed trying to analyze what you characterize as a "re-rollover" situation. He concluded that (1) the Seahawks rolled over $21M from 2011 to 2012, and (2) were on pace, if they didn't make changes for the remainder of 2012, to roll over the $8.5M unspent portion of the $143M 2012 Adjusted Cap to 2013. If the Seahawks blogger agreed with your interpretation of the rules, he would have concluded that the Seahawks were on pace to be unable to roll any $ over to 2013, because the $8.5M of 2012 Adjusted Cap room they had not yet spent was less than the $21M that the Seahawks rolled over from 2011 to 2012. 2. I wonder if the spotrac link you posted is simply trying to say, if we use the above Seahawks numbers as an example, that after the Seahawks rolled $21M from 2011 to 2012, they can't roll BOTH the unspent $8.5M and the previously rolled $21M into 2013. Note that the Seahawks blogger moronically initially thought that if the Seahawks rolled over 21M from 2011 to 2012, they could ADD the same 21M to what they were on pace to rollover from 2012 to 2013. 3. Although that interpretation of the spotrac link would reconcile the seemingly conflicting position of the ProFootballTalk link I posted earlier in this thread, I don't know if that's what spotrac meant. But I do know that the salary cap rules were the subject of prolonged bargaining between the NFL and NFLPA before the 2011 CBA was signed, and if any rule prohibiting what you call a "re-rollover" exists, it has to be in the CBA. If it's in there, I can't find it, so until somebody shows me a CBA provision to the contrary, I think you're wrong. 4. The CBA is not as long as the US Tax Code, but it's about as turgid, so I acknowledge that a prohibition against what you characterize as "re-rolling" could be hiding in there somewhere (with a pony ). I really want to be able to provide a link to an NFL source here to definitively clear things up as I don't like relying on logic on an internet forum(for obvious reasons). 5. Agreed. 6. Are you suggesting that the 2011 CBA was modified by the NFL and NFLPA in 2012? - - that may be the only way a new salary cap rule that wasn't mentioned in the 2011 CBA could arise later. Edited September 12, 2013 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 1 Take a closer look at what the Seahawk blogger wrote..... At this point I am willing to let this go and concede to concept that teams may well be able to re-rollover cap money.....even though it goes against the 2 explanatory quotes(maybe I'm just a bit thick to figure out what they meant by "adjusted" cap). Either way....all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Under Article 13, Section 6(b)(v) of the CBA: (v) Carrying Over Room. A Club may "carry over" Room from one League Year to the following League Year by submitting notice in writing signed by the owner to the NFL no later than fourteen (14) days prior to the start of the next League Year indicating the maximum amount of Room that the Club wishes to carry over. The NFL shall prompdy provide a copy of any such notice to the NFLP A. The amount of Room carried over will be adjusted downward based on the final Room available after the year-end reconciliation https://www.nflplayers.com/about-us/CBA-Download/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Under Article 13, Section 6(b)(v) of the CBA: (v) Carrying Over Room. A Club may "carry over" Room from one League Year to the following League Year by submitting notice in writing signed by the owner to the NFL no later than fourteen (14) days prior to the start of the next League Year indicating the maximum amount of Room that the Club wishes to carry over. The NFL shall prompdy provide a copy of any such notice to the NFLP A. The amount of Room carried over will be adjusted downward based on the final Room available after the year-end reconciliation https://www.nflplaye...s/CBA-Download/ Which begs the question of whether Ralph has submitted or will submit such a notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 Which begs the question of whether Ralph has submitted or will submit such a notice. they did from 2012 to 2013. the Bills had a "carry over" of $9.8 million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 they did from 2012 to 2013. the Bills had a "carry over" of $9.8 millionbu If the Bills carried over $9.8 cap money into this year then how much did they actually spend on salaries this year? Are they below their cash to cap salary model this year? It's gotten to the point that I don't particular care how the Bills or any team handles their cap strategy. Different franchises have different economic realities to contend with. For me it is not how the Bills or any other team maneuver within the cap structure but the bottom line is the product on the field. Just an observation but from a contract vs value relationship the Mario Williams contract is a really bad deal. When you don''t draft well you sometimes out of desperation have to fill a critical need at a premium price from the free agent market. I'm glad that he is on the team but his production is not near his contract cost. The Oakland A's have mastered the art of maximizing their limited resources better than any organization in professional sports. They have mastered the art of linking scouting to player production. A lot of organizatiions in the pro ranks talk about analytics but they have utilized that method better than anyone else. Without a doubt baseball is more conducive for statistical analysis than football. But if you look at their payroll and compare it to teams such as the Yankees, Blue Jays and Phillies their results are very impressive. The caliber of management usually trumps money spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 If the Bills carried over $9.8 cap money into this year then how much did they actually spend on salaries this year? Are they below their cash to cap salary model this year? ..... According to the following link we are at 1.108 ratio for cash2cap. http://www.overthecap.com/nfl-cash-space.php?Year=2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 According to the following link we are at 1.108 ratio for cash2cap. http://www.overtheca...e.php?Year=2013 Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shibuya Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Bills have 42 players under contract in 2014 our Salary cap with no additions or signs is $109,146,839... That includes dead money Doesn't include roll over from this years cap which is $19 million at this point. Assuming little change in the next years salary cap the Bills would have about $33 mil in cap space in 2014, give or take a million... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 According to the following link we are at 1.108 ratio for cash2cap. http://www.overthecap.com/nfl-cash-space.php?Year=2013 glad to see you back, btw. always appreciate your wealth of cap related links and thoughts. its a topic you obviously take a lot of time with and it shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) Bills have 42 players under contract in 2014 our Salary cap with no additions or signs is $109,146,839... That includes dead money Doesn't include roll over from this years cap which is $19 million at this point. Assuming little change in the next years salary cap the Bills would have about $33 mil in cap space in 2014, give or take a million... link ? what 42 players are you referring to ? Who is included in a team's Salary Cap? Team salary includes the amount a team pays its current or former players under their player contracts. The Salary Cap does NOT include pay to coaches, assistants, trainers, or other team employees. Only the highest 51 player salaries for a team count against the Salary Cap in the offseason while ALL player salaries of a team count in calculating the team total Salary Cap during the season. This includes a player that is on Injured Reserve (IR), Physically Unable to Perform (PUP), and the Practice Squad (PS). Practice Squad contracts are included in a team's Salary Cap during the season except in certain situations where a practice squad player is signed to another team's 53-man roster. http://nflsalarycapguru.com/ Edited September 12, 2013 by papazoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICanSleepWhenI'mDead Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 At this point I am willing to let this go and concede to concept that teams may well be able to re-rollover cap money.....even though it goes against the 2 explanatory quotes(maybe I'm just a bit thick to figure out what they meant by "adjusted" cap). Either way....all good. Well if you're thick, I am too. It's not uncommon to find conflicting opinions online about salary cap issues, maybe because the CBA is so hard to fully understand that there are only a few people who really understand all the details (I don't). If I see anything from a league or other reliable source that seems to definitively answer the question (either way), particularly if it cites to a CBA provision, I'll try to remember to come back and post it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterpan Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 here's a link to the player salary cap of every team, just click on the team helmet of your choosing: http://www.sportscit...wboys-salaries/ It was more a hypothetical question rather than mathematical. Like how can the Eagles afford to give Vick 100 mil, while having MCOY AND JACKSON ON 2ND CONTRACTS, JEREMY MACLIN, AND STILL F AFFORD TO PAY Peters the contract which we couldnt afford. Sorry for the typing I Im on a tBlet which sucks balls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Well if you're thick, I am too. It's not uncommon to find conflicting opinions online about salary cap issues, maybe because the CBA is so hard to fully understand that there are only a few people who really understand all the details (I don't). If I see anything from a league or other reliable source that seems to definitively answer the question (either way), particularly if it cites to a CBA provision, I'll try to remember to come back and post it here. No worries, so will I. My "thick" comment was in frustration at being unable to have a definitive answer(at least in my head)......it really bugs me when that happens lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 So to sum it all up... Bills will have barely any money to sign free agents next year. Correct? CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 So to sum it all up... Bills will have barely any money to sign free agents next year. Correct? CBF I still think they are quite alright with regards to free agency, though likely not going crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 I still think they are quite alright with regards to free agency, though likely not going crazy. So pretty much like the free agent period we just experienced CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 So pretty much like the free agent period we just experienced CBF It depends if teams can re-roll their rollover or not. Being extremely rough with numbers.... As it stands, we are committed to 109m under the 2014 cap already. Add in Byrd(4m.....if he gets a long term contract), rookies(4m....pushes others off the top 51), Carrington, Chandler, Moats etc(9m?). That brings us to the estimated cap level of 126m. If rollover money can't be re-rolled we will still have another 9.5m to play with.......or another 19.3m to play with if rollover money can be re-rolled. It should be enough to grab a good FA or 2 IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 So pretty much like the free agent period we just experienced CBF yea, i would expect similar dealings. We wont need to slash and burn the roster but we can pick up a few vets, extend our guys as needed, etc... It depends if teams can re-roll their rollover or not. Being extremely rough with numbers.... As it stands, we are committed to 109m under the 2014 cap already. Add in Byrd(4m.....if he gets a long term contract), rookies(4m....pushes others off the top 51), Carrington, Chandler, Moats etc(9m?). That brings us to the estimated cap level of 126m. If rollover money can't be re-rolled we will still have another 9.5m to play with.......or another 19.3m to play with if rollover money can be re-rolled. It should be enough to grab a good FA or 2 IMO. and will likely see a guy or two retire or cut or restructure his numbers down.... really, we are in very comfortable shape even if you cant re-rollover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) Yes, we are in a good to very good cap situation in relation to the rest of the NFL no matter how you slice it. Only 10 teams have more cap room than the Bills next year, and most of those have 6-7 fewer players under contract, and one only has 28! Players under contract. Edited September 12, 2013 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 yea, i would expect similar dealings. We wont need to slash and burn the roster but we can pick up a few vets, extend our guys as needed, etc... and will likely see a guy or two retire or cut or restructure his numbers down.... really, we are in very comfortable shape even if you cant re-rollover. I agree. It will also be the perfect year to sign players onto big contracts as the first year in long term contracts can usually be made to be a relatively low cap hit. And with the concept that matter2003 just raised, that many teams will be struggling with their cap.....we might just be able to pick up a Good FA or 2 and not just the role fillers types that we picked up last off-season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Yes, we are in a good to very good cap situation in relation to the rest of the NFL no matter how you slice it. Only 10 teams have more cap room than the Bills next year, and most of those have 6-7 fewer players under contract, and one only has 28! Players under contract. I think many around here would be shocked by what other teams deal with annually managing the cap. If we sign anyone it's doomsday for our future in free agency on the board - truth is you can be very aggressive and still not have much in the way of issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted September 12, 2013 Share Posted September 12, 2013 Yes, we are in a good to very good cap situation in relation to the rest of the NFL no matter how you slice it. Only 10 teams have more cap room than the Bills next year, and most of those have 6-7 fewer players under contract, and one only has 28! Players under contract. 28! = 3.0488834461171384e+29 That is, seriously, a lot of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted September 12, 2013 Author Share Posted September 12, 2013 actually I think we will be in good shape salary cap wise. i'm going to predict around plus $25 million in available cap space to start free agency based on the following: plus $19 mil carry over plus $10 mil under the league cap (current $19 - 9 carry over from last year= $10) plus $10 mil saved by not signing any of our own UFA's (Chandler, Carrington, Branch, Moats, Legursky) plus $5 mil by cutting some big names (kolb, brad smith) plus $5 mil by cutting low level players minus $17 mil in automatic increases to core players minus $5 mil in rookie allotment minus $2 mil in Byrd's long term deal (over the current $7 mil tag value) if Byrd is traded, this turns into a plus $7 mil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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