Bill Polian's top 4 qualities in a franchise QB

[Orton's Arm]

Anyways EA, I've said about Barkley on several occasions that his ball placement and accuracy is good, his timing is good, his understanding of the offense is good, everything is good,

 

except his arm strength.

 

Some people think it's a minor point.

 

I'm not one of those people.

 

As I said earlier, I can't think of an NFL QB with such a weak arm having any kind of decent career except for Chad Pennington.

 

Yeah Montana had a weak arm but that was 20 years ago.

 

I could be wrong about Barkley like I've been wrong about many players. We'll see.

 

You may well be right about his arm strength. The game I watched didn't provide any data on the subject, one way or the other.

 

If a QB's arm strength falls below a certain minimum threshold level, then you have to pay a lot of attention to it. If a QB's arm strength is above that minimum threshold, then it's not as big an issue.

 

If I were the Bills, I would have used some of my time with Barkley to have him make a series of increasingly difficult throws. (Difficult from the perspective of arm strength, that is.) If he did well on a test like that, the correct response would be to draft him 8th overall. If he did poorly, then you have to evaluate how much of that poor performance is the result of lingering effects of the injury/incomplete rehab, and decide what to do from there.

[Kelly the Dog]

Anyways EA, I've said about Barkley on several occasions that his ball placement and accuracy is good, his timing is good, his understanding of the offense is good, everything is good,

 

except his arm strength.

 

Some people think it's a minor point.

 

I'm not one of those people.

 

As I said earlier, I can't think of an NFL QB with such a weak arm having any kind of decent career except for Chad Pennington.

 

Yeah Montana had a weak arm but that was 20 years ago.

 

I could be wrong about Barkley like I've been wrong about many players. We'll see.

I have read several people mention what the Bills said about Barkley in the draft luncheon and took it to mean the Bills were likely to draft him (or Nassib). I watched that luncheon and to me, it seemed like they wouldn't draft him because they thought he had a weak arm. Of course they are not going to come right out and say it, but when asked directly about it, Whaley didn't really answer, and was diplomatic. Here are the words, but I thought watching it it was even more pronounced.

 

"We believe he has a chance to be successful with his skill set" does NOT seem to me to be a franchise QB statement or a ringing endorsement.

Q: What do you see out of Matt Barkley from USC as a top prospect?

Buddy Nix: I will briefly (talk about him) and then I will let Doug talk about him. We went to see all of those guys and had them in here. I have seen them a lot more than I have seen my wife in the last three months (jokingly). He is a brilliant guy; very smart. He picks it up in a hurry. He has played in a good league.

Doug Whaley: To add to the fact that he has been on the big stage for a while, he has produced. And I think the best thing about him is he knows how to get the ball to his playmakers. That is, I think, one of the best qualities he has and a good trait to have in a quarterback.

Q: Does Barkley have the arm to whip it through a Buffalo wind?

Doug Whaley: In our opinion, a guy that does not have an outright cannon can still get away with it with having timing, being able to anticipate throws, being able to have knowledge of defenses, when to throw to a spot and when to adjust his throwing motion to get the most out of what he has. A perfect example of that is Joe Montana. Joe Montana did not have the strongest of arms. He is still arguably one of the best quarterbacks in NFL history.

Q: You are saying Matt has all of that?

Doug Whaley: We believe he has a chance to be successful with his skill set.

Buddy Nix: You know a lot of people say that, I do not know who they are. A lot of it…that old boy a year ago was the number one guy. Then he got hurt and I do not know how much that affected him. Neither do a lot of people. They probably do not either.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Kelly the Dog

[OCinBuffalo]

Thanks for the link to the videos. I just watched Barkley's game against Stanford in 2011. The thing which stood out to me in that game was the lack of pass protection! He almost never had a clean pocket to step into. Most of his throws were short--but there was almost always at least one defender applying pass pressure when he threw the ball.

 

I'm not saying the pass protection was a complete failure. I don't recall any cases in which a defender rushed untouched to the quarterback. The OL gave him a little time--but not much time at all! Under the circumstances, he looked to me like a quarterback responding appropriately to a lack of pass protection. I saw few if any wasted opportunities for him to wait for deeper throws to open up. Had he waited much longer on just about any of those plays, they would have resulted in sacks. As it was, I don't recall him taking any sacks, despite the fact his OL was greatly over-matched.

 

I saw a small number of intermediate throws in that game. It didn't look like he had much chance to step into those throws, due to an abundance of defensive pressure on the quarterback. Most of his intermediate throws looked very accurate.

 

I didn't see any deep throws. But neither did I see a single legitimate opportunity for him to throw deep. Not one! His OL was getting dominated that badly. That game didn't allow me to conclude anything--either positive or negative--about his arm strength.

Fine analysis.

 

Now...let me ask you this:

 

Do we want a guy who arm strength is, per your work, inconclusive?

 

Wouldn't we want a guy who we KNOW has a good arm? It doesn't have to be a great one(cue the Jeff Geoge, or more recently, Jemarcus Russel, meme), but at least, by watching one game, don't we want to come away with "there's no doubt the guy can throw"?

 

 

And...I agree with Kelly the Dog, if we've learned to speak Nixley properly, then the above means: "Ain't no way in hell".

[Awwufelloff]

I think pocket presence and the ability to make quick decisions are extremely important...especially if your offensive line is sub-par. Obviously any QB drafted in the first few rounds has the ability to throw the deep ball, but what seperates the best from the "pure athletes" is decision making.

[BuffaloFan68]

I have a couple of physical traits that I like to also consider. 1) Should be at least 6'4" & 2) Hands should be at least 10". Of course there are always exceptions and this year it is Geno Smith. If we are not going to get or take Geno than I hope we get a big QB. I'm a little worried that Barkley wouldn't do well in the Buffalo winds.

 

I really want WR Patterson at 8, he's a cross between Stevie Johnson & Marshawn Lynch.

[Brainiac21]

I have read several people mention what the Bills said about Barkley in the draft luncheon and took it to mean the Bills were likely to draft him (or Nassib). I watched that luncheon and to me, it seemed like they wouldn't draft him because they thought he had a weak arm. Of course they are not going to come right out and say it, but when asked directly about it, Whaley didn't really answer, and was diplomatic. Here are the words, but I thought watching it it was even more pronounced.

 

"We believe he has a chance to be successful with his skill set" does NOT seem to me to be a franchise QB statement or a ringing endorsement.

i totally agree with you, though it seems we're in the minority. maybe i'm just in denial, b/c i really don't like what i've seen from Barkley all that much. over and over i see short throws, nothing special. given that i can't rally see much he does better than Nassib, i don't see why they would go for the unknown more than the known. even TYler Wilson in round 2 would seem to be just as good at whatever Barkley has.

[K-9]

I have a couple of physical traits that I like to also consider. 1) Should be at least 6'4" & 2) Hands should be at least 10". Of course there are always exceptions and this year it is Geno Smith. If we are not going to get or take Geno than I hope we get a big QB. I'm a little worried that Barkley wouldn't do well in the Buffalo winds.

 

I really want WR Patterson at 8, he's a cross between Stevie Johnson & Marshawn Lynch.

 

Eye spacing is important, too. And the length of the forhead from hairline to eyebrows. Oh, and point to point spacing between the ears both from in front of face (around the nose) and over the top of the skull.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BillsFan17]

Matt Barkley.

 

Say what you want about the kid's arm but the ball placement from Matt is the best in the class.

 

The Bills brass them selves has said you do not need a cannon to win in this league.

 

There have been plenty of players, whom on paper, have all the measurables you look for in a prototypical QB. Yet, have failed because they didn't have it between the ears.

 

If you look at someone like Pennington whom didn't possess a "cannon" but was accurate and lead the Jets very well before the injuries. Matt has signature wins in his career that not many of these other prospects have too boot.

[K-9]

Matt Barkley.

 

Say what you want about the kid's arm but the ball placement from Matt is the best in the class.

 

The Bills brass them selves has said you do not need a cannon to win in this league.

 

There have been plenty of players, whom on paper, have all the measurables you look for in a prototypical QB. Yet, have failed because they didn't have it between the ears.

 

If you look at someone like Pennington whom didn't possess a "cannon" but was accurate and lead the Jets very well before the injuries. Matt has signature wins in his career that not many of these other prospects have too boot.

 

Everything about this kid screams, "good QB" except for the arm issue as it relates to his separated throwing shoulder. I wish I could say that's a small concern but it just isn't. It'll come down to what a particular team's medical opinion is. I keep thinking about how Miami didn't want to touch Brees after his surgery because their medical staff didn't feel good about it.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Kelly the Dog]

Everything about this kid screams, "good QB" except for the arm issue as it relates to his separated throwing shoulder. I wish I could say that's a small concern but it just isn't. It'll come down to what a particular team's medical opinion is. I keep thinking about how Miami didn't want to touch Brees after his surgery because their medical staff didn't feel good about it.

 

GO BILLS!!!

But Brees had shown to have a pretty strong arm in college and in his first 3-4 years on the Chargers. Barkley has never displayed an even reasonably strong arm and it's always been his one main issue.

[BillsFan17]

Everything about this kid screams, "good QB" except for the arm issue as it relates to his separated throwing shoulder. I wish I could say that's a small concern but it just isn't. It'll come down to what a particular team's medical opinion is. I keep thinking about how Miami didn't want to touch Brees after his surgery because their medical staff didn't feel good about it.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Exactly and Culpepper the guy with the "big arm" and the size you look for in a QB flamed out in Miami while Brees went on to do very good things with the Saints. Not just for the football team but for the community there.

 

I am not going to sit here and act like Barkley has the greatest arm in the world. However, few QBs in the NFL possess the "cannon" that so many folks covet. We had Losman who had the arm strength and arm talent but couldn't put it together.

 

Matt has touch, accuracy, high football IQ, knows how to get the ball to play makers and is the exact character Nix looks for in a first round pick. Helps that Matt started all four years...

Spiller- Played all four years.

Dareus- Started for all three years on campus at 'Bama

Gilmore- Four year starter at SC.

 

See a trend of the type of player Nix likes in his first rounder?

 

But Brees had shown to have a pretty strong arm in college and in his first 3-4 years on the Chargers. Barkley has never displayed an even reasonably strong arm and it's always been his one main issue.

Yeah, but people did not like Brees' deep ball or his accuracy stretching the field. No one will question Matt's ability to put the ball on a dime deep. Brees without a doubt had the better arm coming out but remind me how touted Brady's arm was coming out of college.

 

I think to much is being made about "arm strength" and not enough about touch and accuracy.

[Kelly the Dog]

Exactly and Culpepper the guy with the "big arm" and the size you look for in a QB flamed out in Miami while Brees went on to do very good things with the Saints. Not just for the football team but for the community there.

 

I am not going to sit here and act like Barkley has the greatest arm in the world. However, few QBs in the NFL possess the "cannon" that so many folks covet. We had Losman who had the arm strength and arm talent but couldn't put it together.

 

Matt has touch, accuracy, high football IQ, knows how to get the ball to play makers and is the exact character Nix looks for in a first round pick. Helps that Matt started all four years...

Spiller- Played all four years.

Dareus- Started for all three years on campus at 'Bama

Gilmore- Four year starter at SC.

 

See a trend of the type of player Nix likes in his first rounder?

 

 

Yeah, but people did not like Brees' deep ball or his accuracy stretching the field. No one will question Matt's ability to put the ball on a dime deep. Brees without a doubt had the better arm coming out but remind me how touted Brady's arm was coming out of college.

 

I think to much is being made about "arm strength" and not enough about touch and accuracy.

Personally, I don't want Barkley not so much because of his arm strength, although that's a factor, but because I think he sucks too much of the time, and I have seen him live several times.

[BillsFan17]

Personally, I don't want Barkley not so much because of his arm strength, although that's a factor, but because I think he sucks too much of the time, and I have seen him live several times.

I admit, I have not seen Matt in person. I have seen plenty of USC football because I am a USC fan. I was gotten to at a young age and the whole OJ went to USC blah blah blah...

 

I watched Matt from his win against Ohio State as a Freshmen to that huge win on the road against #4 oregon. I am almost 100% positive it was Kirk Herbstreit whom was calling that game... The way Matt played and the way they talked about Matt had me sold that what I was seeing was not just me. That others saw what Matt could offer the NFL.

 

The kid IMO can make every NFL throw. That is more than I can say for most any in this class. I haven't seen a whole lot of Nassib. A game here a game there, and of course youtube. Nassib to me is a player that has no business even being discussed in the same sentence as Matt.

[Garranimal]

Manning was clutch at UT?

Exactly....winner winner, chicken dinner.

 

What is Polian's qualification as a supreme QB selector, beyond ol' Fivehead?

 

Eye spacing is important, too. And the length of the forhead from hairline to eyebrows. Oh, and point to point spacing between the ears both from in front of face (around the nose) and over the top of the skull.

 

GO BILLS!!!

These were the key factors in drafting Peyton Manning, he set new overall standards for each. Peyton's forehead and Elway's chompers, if manning and elway had a kid, it could participate in the Macy's New Year's parade.

[OCinBuffalo]

Exactly and Culpepper the guy with the "big arm" and the size you look for in a QB flamed out in Miami while Brees went on to do very good things with the Saints. Not just for the football team but for the community there.

 

I am not going to sit here and act like Barkley has the greatest arm in the world. However, few QBs in the NFL possess the "cannon" that so many folks covet. We had Losman who had the arm strength and arm talent but couldn't put it together.

 

Yeah, but people did not like Brees' deep ball or his accuracy stretching the field. No one will question Matt's ability to put the ball on a dime deep. Brees without a doubt had the better arm coming out but remind me how touted Brady's arm was coming out of college.

 

I think to much is being made about "arm strength" and not enough about touch and accuracy.

Yes, but do we want to base our thinking on the exception, or the rule?

 

I just think the draft is such a crapshoot with regard to QB, you have to try to go with the known, rather than a projection.

 

And, yeah, 4 year starter is a known too.

[Kelly the Dog]

Exactly and Culpepper the guy with the "big arm" and the size you look for in a QB flamed out in Miami while Brees went on to do very good things with the Saints. Not just for the football team but for the community there.

 

Actually, what happened was, Brees was still hurt. Nick Saban lobbied hard to keep Brees but the doctors wouldn't clear Brees shoulder as being healed, so the Dolphins refused to sign him. It pissed Saban off and then they signed Culpepper. It wasn't because they wanted the bigger arm, it was because they thought Brees was still hurt.

[Armchair GM]

Honestly...Not to say that Gruden was incorrect...But that is an easily correctable "fault" in EJ's game...That's very coach-able...

 

Can't agree...fully. That type of "fault" upholds to the 3 major criteria for lapse...comfort, convenience and habit

Edited April 19, 2013 by Armchair GM

[HeHateMe]

Does "touch" fall under accuracy?... because Nassib fails miserably here. He likes to throw rockets at guys running across the middle 5 yards in front of him...

[Kelly the Dog]

Does "touch" fall under accuracy?... because Nassib fails miserably here. He likes to throw rockets at guys running across the middle 5 yards in front of him...

I think those are two completely different things. I also think Nassib is pretty accurate and is average at "touch", although some people don't like that he guns the ball on short passes and I do like it. His touch is erratic to me.

[reddogblitz]

I'm presently on the Barkley band wagon because of his accuracy. We've suffered through inaccurate/inconsistent QBs like JP and Fitz. Can you imagine what Coach Gailey's offense would have looked like with an accurate passer? IMHO accuracy is of supreme importance for QB. Even over "arm strength" and height and the size of his hands and running ability and 40 time and vertical jump, blah blah blah. Accuracy and leadership are the 2 most important attributes to me. I believe his arm to be strong enough. On one of the vids I saw, he threw a completion that traveled 45 yards in the air. That's long enough. He played in a pro style offense. He took snaps under center. I believe he could learn Hackett's system by September.

 

I wouldn't hate it if we ended up with Geno or Ryan or EJ, but Barkley is my choice.

 

Does "touch" fall under accuracy?... because Nassib fails miserably here. He likes to throw rockets at guys running across the middle 5 yards in front of him...

This may or may not be a problem. John Elway and Roger Staubach threw the football hard. WRs had to adjust to it, but they did.