Kyle Williams and calling out Bills effort

[eball]

ummm, word of caution: this isn't a college team. these aren't college players. it's one thing to take a my way/highway approach in college. another to do so in the NFL when guaranteed contracts and practice limitations (days, hours and contact) are in place.

and before someone suggests that it's a new coach's perogative to rid team of chaff, well then that was my concern going into a coaching change in the first place: how many Bills fans sign up for more rebuilding?

 

just a few thoughts.

 

jw

 

I think concerns about Marrone being too "tough" for an NFL roster are overblown. Colleges have just as many (if not more) restrictions placed on practice time; those kids are coddled. Does no one think Marrone's experience as an assistant coach on NFL teams coached by Bill Parcells and Sean Payton showed him what works and what doesn't from a disciplinary standpoint?

 

I feel certain this is no repeat of Gregg Williams and his blowhorn. But we shall see.

[RyanC883]

Actually they went 4-7 his first year, then 8-5 the next year. Then 5-7 in year three, and another 8-5 to round it out.

 

And I don't think only 6 scholarship players left the first year, but I'm not sure. I know the number is around 22 for the first 2 years combined.

 

Your right about the records, but I'm pretty certain that 6 scholarship players left in the first year. The main point is that the Syracuse program was MUCH better when Marrone left. He also instituted a good strength and conditioning program. Gee, think we could use that around here!

 

As an example, I think Shiano(sp) in Tampa a hard ass doing it the wrong way. My gut is he is fired after next season. OTOH, many examples of "disciplinarians/no no nonsense/hard ass/ whatever adjective you prefer" coaches like Parcells, Belicheck, Tomlin, being highly successful.

 

Some do it the right way, some do it the wrong way. You can add Cower to your list above as an example of the right way. Marrone was liked by his players in NO and Syracuse, and has experience in the NFL. No reason to think he won't do it the right way. Remember when some where grumbling about Coughlin being "too tough," then he went out and won two Super Bowls. Sign me up for that.

[peterpan]

If true, slackers will be GONE will Marrone in charge. He purged the Syracuse roster when he took over. Most of it was voluntary. But he expects 100% every down, every play. 6 scholarship players left his first year. Team went 8-5. First winning season they had since 2001.

 

Thats why I like Marrone.

 

I wonder if Dareus was one of the guys? He sure was invisible out there for being as talented as he is. (I know his brother died, Im just saying)

 

ummm, word of caution: this isn't a college team. these aren't college players. it's one thing to take a my way/highway approach in college. another to do so in the NFL when guaranteed contracts and practice limitations (days, hours and contact) are in place.

and before someone suggests that it's a new coach's perogative to rid team of chaff, well then that was my concern going into a coaching change in the first place: how many Bills fans sign up for more rebuilding?

 

just a few thoughts.

 

jw

 

FWIW College teams have strict restrictions on practice days/times/contact too.

 

Tom Caughlin Made a big deal about that type of thing too. It had mixed results in the locker room. They did win two superbowls, but I really am not sure its realated.

[NoSaint]

 

As an example, I think Shiano(sp) in Tampa a hard ass doing it the wrong way. My gut is he is fired after next season. OTOH, many examples of "disciplinarians/no no nonsense/hard ass/ whatever adjective you prefer" coaches like Parcells, Belicheck, Tomlin, being highly successful.

 

yea - the anonymous players coming out that "those college coaches need to go back to coaching kids" is not a good sign for his future.

[hondo in seattle]

on the other hand, Marrone has never been an NFL head coach. ruling over a college program, whether you're Nick Saban or Jeff Quinn or Doug Marrone is one thing. a so-called "student athlete" has very little recourse if he's benched or has his scholarship stripped or is suspended. at the NFL level there's far more nuance required, i think.

 

and, i wasn't making any comparisons here to Chip Kelly, nor attempting to suggest i favored Chip Kelly over any of the other candidates. i didn't.

 

and to San Jose's point, Marrone might have NFL experience, but it's as an assistant coach. i would suggest to say that there's a difference being an offensive coordinator and a head coach.

 

all i'm saying is these are words of caution.

 

i exchanged texts today with a very prominent Bills fan, who is excited about this decision.

fine, i said, you can be. good for you.

trouble is, i've been around this new coach block one too many times, and been fooled by hype and expectations and 5-2 and 4-1 starts to know better. i intend to start making my mind up at say this point next year.

 

call me skeptical, i wrote. maybe i'm from Missouri these days: you know, the show me state.

 

jw

 

I wouldn't use the work "skeptical." I think "jaded" might be a better word. I hate to say it, John, because I usually find you to be a clear, balanced voice of reason. But I wonder if too many dashed hopes and unfulfilled expectations have turned you into a Debbie Downer???

 

There are just as many reasons to think Marrone will succeed as fail. Why focus on the latter? Marrone isn't Chan, DJ, Mularkey or Greggo. The only connection is that he now coaches the Bills. Yet it seems Marrone's new connection with that uninspiring group of men already taints his image in your mind. Just because he's a Bill now doesn't mean he'll fail.

 

We'll find out in time. But, for now, I'm glad we made a change and am hoping for the best.

 

Lots of great NFL teams were run by very strict coaches. Belicheck, Coughlin, Parcells too name a few. They were very harsh and wouldnt put up with any crap and theyre players didnt quit or run home to mommy...

If he is strict and harsh too bad. If he isnt who cares.. Whatever it takes to Win a Superbowl.

..

 

Yeah, you can be a no-nonsense coach in the NFL. Marrone likes to confront mistakes when he sees them. He confronts forcefully. But I don't get the impression he demeans his players in the process. Parcells would actually go too far and did publicly denigrate players, and he still won a lot of games. Given that Marrone played in the NFL for a couple years and coached for 7, I don't worry that he'll be too tough and aggressive for NFL egos.

Edited January 7, 2013 by hondo in seattle

[Delete This Account]

I wouldn't use the work "skeptical." I think "jaded" might be a better word. I hate to say it, John, because I usually find you to be a clear, balanced voice of reason. But I wonder if too many dashed hopes and unfulfilled expectations have turned you into a Debbie Downer???

 

There are just as many reasons to think Marrone will succeed as fail. Why focus on the latter? Marrone isn't Chan, DJ, Mularkey or Greggo. The only connection is that he now coaches the Bills. Yet it seems Marrone's new connection with that uninspiring group of men already taints his image in your mind. Just because he's a Bill now doesn't mean he'll fail.

 

We'll find out in time. But, for now, I'm glad we made a change and am hoping for the best.

 

 

 

Yeah, you can be a no-nonsense coach in the NFL. Marrone likes to confront mistakes when he sees them. He confronts forcefully. But I don't get the impression he demeans his players in the process. Parcells would actually go too far and did publicly denigrate players, and he still won a lot of games. Given that Marrone played in the NFL for a couple years and coached for 7, I don't worry that he'll be too tough and aggressive for NFL egos.

 

trying not to be a downer, but i wonder how this "exhaustive" and "leave no stoned unturned" search lasted less than a week and failed to identify some of the candidates that are now available to be interviewed and candidates still coaching in the playoffs.

all i'm saying is that being skeptical makes me wonder whether things have changed. these are questions that are unanswered at this point. and after 13 seasons of missing the playoffs, what benefit of the doubt have the Bills earned.

even Russ Brandon said the team's reputation has been "tarnished."

it's not as if i'm paving new ground here.

 

jw

[eball]

trying not to be a downer, but i wonder how this "exhaustive" and "leave no stoned unturned" search lasted less than a week and failed to identify some of the candidates that are now available to be interviewed and candidates still coaching in the playoffs.

all i'm saying is that being skeptical makes me wonder whether things have changed. these are questions that are unanswered at this point. and after 13 seasons of missing the playoffs, what benefit of the doubt have the Bills earned.

even Russ Brandon said the team's reputation has been "tarnished."

it's not as if i'm paving new ground here.

 

jw

 

But the search DID result in landing what some have described as the "hottest" candidate not named Chip Kelly out there. That is certainly a marked change from anything this organization has done since, maybe, the Cornelius Bennett trade?

[Kelly the Dog]

As a player and as an assistant coach and as a coordinator, Marrone has spent 3x as much time dealing with NFL players than with college players. Yes, his only time completely in charge where he could do what he wanted to do was in college, and he jettisoned the guys who wouldn't work. But he would have to be a total idiot, after 10+ years in the NFL, to treat NFL players like he treated college players, and there is zero to believe this guy is a total idiot.

[Fan in San Diego]

trying not to be a downer, but i wonder how this "exhaustive" and "leave no stoned unturned" search lasted less than a week and failed to identify some of the candidates that are now available to be interviewed and candidates still coaching in the playoffs.

all i'm saying is that being skeptical makes me wonder whether things have changed. these are questions that are unanswered at this point. and after 13 seasons of missing the playoffs, what benefit of the doubt have the Bills earned.

even Russ Brandon said the team's reputation has been "tarnished."

it's not as if i'm paving new ground here.

 

jw

 

If they wait till after the SB to interview every last person, everyone previously interviewed will be hired. It's kind of a catch 22 I guess.

[Russ 'Em]

i think we're a little off topic here. at least one poster here suggested Marrone was very good at getting rid of the slackers at Syracuse. i don't know how that translates at the NFL level.

and any coach that's incapable of getting rid of slackers, be it in college, NFL or high school for that matter, isn't long for the job in the first place.

 

jw

 

So are you arguing that he will be able to or he won't?

[RyanC883]

trying not to be a downer, but i wonder how this "exhaustive" and "leave no stoned unturned" search lasted less than a week and failed to identify some of the candidates that are now available to be interviewed and candidates still coaching in the playoffs.

all i'm saying is that being skeptical makes me wonder whether things have changed. these are questions that are unanswered at this point. and after 13 seasons of missing the playoffs, what benefit of the doubt have the Bills earned.

even Russ Brandon said the team's reputation has been "tarnished."

it's not as if i'm paving new ground here.

 

jw

 

What playoff coaches remain that would be an improvement over Marrone? Having someone with NFL experience, and HC experience is difficult to find, unless you go with a "retread." The only retread worth acquiring appears to be Lovie Smith, who the Bills interviewed, liked, but liked Marrone more. Also, Marrone was apparently sought after by the Browns and Eagles. Imagine that, a coach choosing us over other teams. Would have been impossible a few years ago. Peter King had Marrone listed as one of the top 5 college coaching candidates for NFL jobs in a MMQB article earlier this year. I understand your pessimism after 13 years of futility, but things are about to change. You'll love Marrone and his approach after he's here.

Edited January 7, 2013 by RyanC883

[hondo in seattle]

trying not to be a downer, but i wonder how this "exhaustive" and "leave no stoned unturned" search lasted less than a week and failed to identify some of the candidates that are now available to be interviewed and candidates still coaching in the playoffs.

all i'm saying is that being skeptical makes me wonder whether things have changed. these are questions that are unanswered at this point. and after 13 seasons of missing the playoffs, what benefit of the doubt have the Bills earned.

even Russ Brandon said the team's reputation has been "tarnished."

it's not as if i'm paving new ground here.

 

jw

 

JW, I think they did "leave no stone unturned." I've got to assume the Bills decided to fire Chan weeks ago and began their due diligence then. After vetting several candidates, they narrowed down the list to the guys who were interviewed. But I suspect Marrone was already a top choice before they sat down with him. Russ and Buddy seemed genuinely excited at the presser today. I really think this is the guy they truly wanted.

 

We won't know for a while if Marrone was a good choice. But I see no reason yet to question it. There are reasons to believe he'll succeed and, as a fan desperate for good news, I'll focus on those until he gives me reason to doubt him. Let's hope he never does.

 

If Kyle Williams was correct when he said some players were slacking, it reflects poorly on Chan's leadership. Marrone seems like a guy who could fix slackers. According to one report, Marrone choose the Bills because he thought there was more talent to work here with than at his other option(s). This could be a confirmation of Kyle's assertion: the Bills underperformed because of poor effort.

Edited January 7, 2013 by hondo in seattle

[Kelly the Dog]

 

If Kyle Williams was correct when he said some players were slacking, it reflects poorly on Chan's leadership. Marrone seems like a guy who could fix slackers. According to one report, Marrone choose the Bills because he thought there was more talent here to work here with than at his other option(s). This could be a confirmation of Kyle's assertion: the Bills underperformed because of poor effort.

Actually in the press conference, Marrone pretty much debunked that Schefter report about studying the teams and deciding the Bills had more talent. I assume he did watch some games of the teams, but he said he didn't really have much time for that.

 

I suspect that Chip Kelly was the #1 choice of the Bills, but then two things happened: Kelly was both wishy washy and lukewarm on the Bills, AND simultaneously, Marrone really impressed them, outshone the other candidates in the interviews combined with what they know about him and his experience, AND several other teams honing in on and being impressed with Marrone, too. They decided if they wanted him, they better pull the trigger quick or they will likely lose him.

[Cash]

Your right about the records, but I'm pretty certain that 6 scholarship players left in the first year. The main point is that the Syracuse program was MUCH better when Marrone left. He also instituted a good strength and conditioning program. Gee, think we could use that around here!

 

I'll take your word for it on the departures -- I do remember that the one year had way more than the other year, but don't remember which year it was.

 

Some do it the right way, some do it the wrong way. You can add Cower to your list above as an example of the right way. Marrone was liked by his players in NO and Syracuse, and has experience in the NFL. No reason to think he won't do it the right way. Remember when some where grumbling about Coughlin being "too tough," then he went out and won two Super Bowls. Sign me up for that.

 

Careful what you wish for -- Gregg Williams was a tough disciplinarian as well. I think most fans put way too much stock into things like how tough a guy is or how animated he gets on the sidelines. Tony Dungy and Bill Cowher have won the same number of Super Bowls.

[hondo in seattle]

Actually in the press conference, Marrone pretty much debunked that Schefter report about studying the teams and deciding the Bills had more talent. I assume he did watch some games of the teams, but he said he didn't really have much time for that.

 

I suspect that Chip Kelly was the #1 choice of the Bills, but then two things happened: Kelly was both wishy washy and lukewarm on the Bills, AND simultaneously, Marrone really impressed them, outshone the other candidates in the interviews combined with what they know about him and his experience, AND several other teams honing in on and being impressed with Marrone, too. They decided if they wanted him, they better pull the trigger quick or they will likely lose him.

 

Yeah, Kelly, I did hear him say that. That doesn't mean Marrone didn't do some homework to identify what team had better talent. Then again, maybe the report was just wrong.

 

As far as JW wondering if the the search was "exhaustive," Chris Brown reports the Bills met with Marrone 5 times:

 

"President and CEO Russ Brandon said over the course of last week the coach search committee met with Marrone five times. Brandon was clear that Marrone distanced himself from the rest of the pack with each subsequent meeting."

 

Kelly, I think your speculation about Chip Kelly might be right: he may have been rated higher initially but his wishy-washy attitude combined with Marrone's good interviews put Marrone on top.

 

I confess, I was not hugely disappointed when the Bills hired Chan. But there was all sorts of rumors swirling around back then about luring Cowher or Gruden out of retirement, etc. It felt like Chan was a consolation prize. This feels different.

Edited January 7, 2013 by hondo in seattle

[Tu-Toned]

This is sad to type but you play to his strenghts and find a way to motivate him. I am willing to bet Mario was never pulled aside once he got into college and especially the NFL and told we need more impact and better effort out of you. Thats the downside of showing a guy $100 million. Its the entitlement, I am an Orange fan from afar and really liked the direction Marronehad them going we will see if he can steer the Bills family trucksters.

Not to defend Mario too much here, cause I think he could have given a little more, but they same could be said for the coach, somebody should have pulled

Gailey/Stashe aside and demanded a better effort out of them before we got to this point, and I really believe it was equal, maybe a tad more, coaching/player performance. Marrone strikes me as the type that isn't going to expect anything more from his players than what he is expecting from himself, and that's an honest effort. If he can get that then it's on him to do the rest and put the players, and hence the team, in the best postion to succeed.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Tu-Toned

[BillsBytheBay]

 

 

Plus he started behind even before those.... You know, by getting fat.

where did this fat and out if shape stuff come from? The only place I've heard this is by posters. Link or something? When was this story? I've followed training camp... Why didn't hear this than?

[BillsBruce]

Boo Boo foot?

Other thread.

[Delete This Account]

there is always some untempered euphoria and chance for a "fresh start" that comes with each coaching hire. i was merely attempting to raise a nagging

concern that i have from my objective perspective as having now gone through five of these things.

 

anything and mostly everything that's said in these opening press conferences are quite often forgotten come September.

 

heck, someone here asked me to recall the previous four inaugural press conferences. for some reason, they were all relatively unmemorable.

 

in fact, i more recall what each coach said to me or in public on the days they were fired or resigned.

 

again, i'll wait until a year from now before making up my mind on Doug. could be a great guy. could be questions. i'm not sure just as of yet.

 

oh, and by the way, that was my question regarding the report of the time Marrone apparently committed in studying the teams he was interviewing with. ... geez, shefter was wrong.

 

jw

[NoSaint]

where did this fat and out if shape stuff come from? The only place I've heard this is by posters. Link or something? When was this story? I've followed training camp... Why didn't hear this than?

 

did you not see him with your own two eyes? he was like a blimp and ran like he was in quicksand the first half of the season. his conditioning seemed to improve with time.

Edited January 7, 2013 by NoSaint