Meathead Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) I really don't think you can compare Mark Anderson to Kelsay. Anderson has never been a full time starter in his career and still managed to be a double digit sack guy twice (including last year). In Kelsay's complete seasons as a starter, he's only gotten between 2.5-5.5 sacks. That's not very impressive even when he was the full time guy. this discussion has been about value of a de. if the discussion was about the value of sack totals only then you would have a point. kelsay is the second best all around de on the team. he is also pretty good at applying pressure, though admittedly has a problem with finishing sacks against any team not named washington As far as being a "run stopper", this team has been absolutely awful against the run and for a long long time. 27th in Y/A last year. 32nd the year before that, and 30th the year before that. The numbers don't support your suggestion that this is something that Kelsay has excelled at. you dont judge one des run stopping ability based on team rushing stats, you base that on tackle totals and he has consistently been near the top of that list the last few years when not playing the disaster that was the linebacker experiment Kelsay has played the LDE position his entire career. Suggesting he can suddenly play RDE (where Anderson will start) is a bit of a reach. Right now, Kelsay is set up to spell Mario and behind him on the depth charts on the left side, whereas Merriman is set up to spell Mark and on behind him on the depth charts on the right side. and to complete the being wrong trifecta, buddy recently confirmed what ive told yall all summer that kelsay will play rde on early downs, anderson plays later/passing downs, and kelsay will switch sides when spelling mario. its probably inaccurate to call either player a starter really, but kelsay will likely end up with at least as many if not more plays than anderson Edited July 25, 2012 by Meathead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You herd it hear last Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Problem is for both of 'em, is that there is little or NO chance of starting, so all the reps will come with the two's. If they don't DOMINATE, then it's gonna be bye-bye for one of those guys. Unless of course...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Here's the thing, WEO -- I DO defend my posts with facts and logical opinions. You refuse to engage in a civil discussion, though -- it's as if you're just disgusted that someone could take an optimistic viewpoint. The Kelsay thing is a great example -- I get fed up with all of the "cut Kelsay" bullcrap so I post SPECIFIC QUOTES from the Bills coaches explaining why they value him. I'm called a homer for that -- what gives? You are really picking nits here. First, there are always fans who disagree with draft picks, but clearly the GM believes in them or he wouldn't be making the selections...right? Second, tell me the last time you heard a GM call out a 2nd rounder and 3rd rounder, two years after they were drafted, as needing to "get it done now." If that's not accepting responsibility for the picks and demanding accountability, I don't know what is. Buddy knows he was the guy who drafted them. That, my friend, is most certainly a breath of fresh air. Better to just ignore WEO. He ads nothing to the discussion. He'll vanish by midseason. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoretalk Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 this discussion has been about value of a de. if the discussion was about the value of sack totals only then you would have a point. kelsay is the second best all around de on the team. he is also pretty good at applying pressure, though admittedly has a problem with finishing sacks against any team not named washington you dont judge one des run stopping ability based on team rushing stats, you base that on tackle totals and he has consistently been near the top of that list the last few years when not playing the disaster that was the linebacker experiment and to complete the being wrong trifecta, buddy recently confirmed what ive told yall all summer that kelsay will play rde on early downs, anderson plays later/passing downs, and kelsay will switch sides when spelling mario. its probably inaccurate to call either player a starter really, but kelsay will likely end up with at least as many if not more plays than anderson Thanks Meathead ... you couldn't have made it more clear to those who have this blank stare look and hatred for Kelsay. No one ever claimed he was Pro Bowl material but he is definitely a decent starting defensive end (who should never have played linebacker) who throughout his career has consistently put pressure on quarterbacks and been effective in doing his part in run defense (How many times do we see him crossing the field to make tackles!). No he doesn't have a sack total to be worthy of but he has been recognized by different coaches running different schemes and by his teammates as a quality team member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Better to just ignore WEO. He ads nothing to the discussion. He'll vanish by midseason. PTR And he will not be welcomed in my group of FANS to "kiss ass with the homers when all of this result in a winnong (sic) season." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meathead Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 and as others have pointed out, i would say at 5.5-ish mil per hes slightly overpaid for his field performance, but more than makes up for it with his professionalism and awesome team ambassador posture on a successful team he would be beloved, but hes had the bad luck to be the most visible player in the dark decade and gets way way way too much blame for that as a result hes been getting better and better the last few seasons (when not playing lb) and should finally silence most of his critics with what i expect will be easily his finest season yet. and with the other big stars demanding most of the attention i wouldnt be surprised to see him post his biggest sack total either. im gonna set the over/under at 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Thanks Meathead ... you couldn't have made it more clear to those who have this blank stare look and hatred for Kelsay. No one ever claimed he was Pro Bowl material but he is definitely a decent starting defensive end (who should never have played linebacker) who throughout his career has consistently put pressure on quarterbacks and been effective in doing his part in run defense (How many times do we see him crossing the field to make tackles!). No he doesn't have a sack total to be worthy of but he has been recognized by different coaches running different schemes and by his teammates as a quality team member. Classic idiotic argument about "hating". Read the thread. Who said they "hated" Kelsay? Every comment I've made is about whether Kelsay is worth the roughly $5.5 million price tag he's costing the team per year. This means one of two things. Your reading comprehension is absolutely awful or you just decided to read one post and jump to conclusions from that. Either way, I'll stick by my original point. Besides a blind opinion, provide proof definitive that Kelsay was a good "run stopper". On that point, I have just as much evidence as you do (an opinion) but one that's backed by the fact that the Bills defensive line has been the worst in the NFL over the last 5 years combined. Kelsay is part of that formula whether you like it or not. You can think that somehow offsets his pedestrian sack numbers, but I don't believe it for a second. No one ever said he wasn't a high effort guy. No one ever said he was a good team mate. I'm not sure where that comes from, but it's simply not grounded in any fact. As for him "crossing the field to make tackles", that's a joke. Let's look how he stacks up against even just his own team mates. 2011 - 13th in tackles with 25. Barnett lead the team with 78. 2010 - 8th in tackles with 46. Poz led the team with 103. 2009 - 8th in tackles with 41. Poz led with 87. 2008 - 10th with 33. Poz led with 87. 2007 - 8th with 34. Crowell and DiGiorgio tied for lead with 86 each If you then went to solo tackles for the season, you would see that he barely averages over 1 per game. He's not the one generally even making first contact. He's cleanup after someone else starts the hit. Is Kelsay a good guy? Sure. Is he good for the locker room? Also sure. He's respected by his peers and works hard. To suggest he's even the 2nd best DE on this team now is laughable. It will be sad for us if he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) 2011 - 13th in tackles with 25. Barnett lead the team with 78. 2010 - 8th in tackles with 46. Poz led the team with 103. 2009 - 8th in tackles with 41. Poz led with 87. 2008 - 10th with 33. Poz led with 87. 2007 - 8th with 34. Crowell and DiGiorgio tied for lead with 86 each If you then went to solo tackles for the season, you would see that he barely averages over 1 per game. He's not the one generally even making first contact. He's cleanup after someone else starts the hit. Is Kelsay a good guy? Sure. Is he good for the locker room? Also sure. He's respected by his peers and works hard. To suggest he's even the 2nd best DE on this team now is laughable. It will be sad for us if he is. 30-40 tackles a season puts him on par with the same numbers generated by Jason Babin, John Abraham, and Osi Unemyiora. Not saying he is as good as ANY of those guys, but that is the typical tackle range for DEs. Different positions are supposed to make more tackles, such as MLB. So Im comparing him to other DEs. Those were just the first 3 off the top of my head. Edited July 25, 2012 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 30-40 tackles a season puts him on par with the same numbers generated by Jason Babin, John Abraham, and Osi Unemyiora. Not saying he is as good as ANY of those guys, but that is the typical tackle range for DEs. Different positions are supposed to make more tackles, such as MLB. So Im comparing him to other DEs. Those were just the first 3 off the top of my head. You just proved my point for me. For all the talk about Kelsay being a "run stopper", he doesn't have any more tackles than the guys you mentioned. The difference is that those guys have the tackles, plus are experts at rushing the passer. Take out sacks and their solo tackles are roughly equal. Those guys you mentioned had a combined 36.5 sacks with a low of 9. Kelsay hasn't even sniffed that in his career. When you take out the sack leaders and take out the guys with a lot of tackles but no sacks, what are you left with? Answer: An average DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) Here's the thing, WEO -- I DO defend my posts with facts and logical opinions. You refuse to engage in a civil discussion, though -- it's as if you're just disgusted that someone could take an optimistic viewpoint. The Kelsay thing is a great example -- I get fed up with all of the "cut Kelsay" bullcrap so I post SPECIFIC QUOTES from the Bills coaches explaining why they value him. I'm called a homer for that -- what gives? You are really picking nits here. First, there are always fans who disagree with draft picks, but clearly the GM believes in them or he wouldn't be making the selections...right? Second, tell me the last time you heard a GM call out a 2nd rounder and 3rd rounder, two years after they were drafted, as needing to "get it done now." If that's not accepting responsibility for the picks and demanding accountability, I don't know what is. Buddy knows he was the guy who drafted them. That, my friend, is most certainly a breath of fresh air. We'll agree to disagree on Buddy's intent. As for the Kelsay thing, I will only reiterate there was no real "cut Kelsay" movement when you started and, weeks later, bumped that thread. Better to just ignore WEO. He ads nothing to the discussion. He'll vanish by midseason. PTR Irony and unintentional humor often go hand in hand, as we see in Promotional Robot's latest.. I don't think I'll vanish. Didn't last year. Never have. Edited July 25, 2012 by Mr. WEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 You just proved my point for me. For all the talk about Kelsay being a "run stopper", he doesn't have any more tackles than the guys you mentioned. The difference is that those guys have the tackles, plus are experts at rushing the passer. Take out sacks and their solo tackles are roughly equal. Those guys you mentioned had a combined 36.5 sacks with a low of 9. Kelsay hasn't even sniffed that in his career. When you take out the sack leaders and take out the guys with a lot of tackles but no sacks, what are you left with? Answer: An average DE. Yes, he is an average DE. And there should be no issue justifying that an average, 8 year veteran DE with good character gets paid roughly $5.5mil/season. We aren't that far apart in our arguments. You just say he isn't worth it. Some of us say he is. I think if you look at his stats, his character, and average salaries around the league, it is a fair contract. None of us are saying he is great, just like you never said you hate him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AReed Deep For6 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Why would Buddy say its now ok for Carrington to get as big as he wants? Don't you want your Dline to be as big as possible in the 3-4 than 4-3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Why would Buddy say its now ok for Carrington to get as big as he wants? Don't you want your Dline to be as big as possible in the 3-4 than 4-3 Carrington was playing DE and even OLB sometimes, so no. You want your interior to be big stuffers. But not your outside guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 And Vince Young too. Was listening to WGR this morning and Buddy said that there is a big gap between Thigpen and Young. It could very well be the other way around but from how they were talking about it they think it is Young that has catching up to do. WGR Interview That would be terrible. Hopefully its Young that's ahead of Thigpen. Otherwise, we need another QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 It's just real hard to give too much credit for people not liking a draft pick the instant they heard it. Especially for players with less name recognition or who play an out-of-favor-position-of-the-day. For a kick re-read the comments about the second round draft pick of Byrd who's arguably a top 10 safety in the NFL. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/87947-round-2-pick-42-jairus-byrd-cb-oregon/ Lots of people instantly hated that pick. I don't give them much credit at all. I'm sure that knee jerk reactions aren't unknown. On the other hand, to lump absolutely everyone that doesn't like a particular pick into the same bucket and say they are all know-nothings is surely an over generalization. There are some fans that are pretty dedicated and do do a bunch of homework. I don't recall them all having a football woody for the Troup pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 The "big deal" is that GMs rarely will publicly admit their failures (or potential failures) two short years after drafting a player. By specifically calling out Troup and Carrington (Nix was not asked about them; he was only asked a generic question about "2nd and 3rd year players"), Nix sent the message he will not give "his" early draft picks excessive time to develop. That's pretty significant, and far from "benign and obvious." This is very true about GM's in general. I know Dimitrof here in Atl is taking heat for keeping some of his draft picks around too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobot Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 I think you are right. Spencer Johnson is a very good fit for the Miami 4-3 that Wannstedt runs. +1 Spencer is coming into camp in the best shape of his life, and is taking names. Book it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 (edited) Yeah but your act wears thin. It seems like you argue just for the sake of arguing. It is a noticeable & pretty significant point E is making. Nix is calling out 2nd & 3rd round picks that he drafted. Very few GM's call their own picks into question so early in their careers. Nix is confident & secure enough to do this. He was also candid about stating the excuses are over, it is time to start winning some ball games. Unlike some posters, I actually don't mind some of your posts but you do seem overly pessimistic most of the time almost as if you rather see the Bills lose & be able to B word about it then have them win & be happy about the team. If your a Bills fan & can't be optimistic going into training camp after the offseason we have had you probably should look for another team to route for. I agree. Weo, to me your one of the posters on here that is actually refreshing sometimes because your not a huge homer but this post is right. E was simply stating it was a relief that our GM can admit when he's wrong and he's not afraid to do it. Will cut bait from his first highly drafted picks if they don't step up. Yes it's nothing we ALL don't already know. But there's really no argument here. We all know it. E was just saying how nice it was to finally have this as a GM. If you hate on Nix or Troupe or Cardington that's fine but this isn't the post for it. I also agree with what's posted above. As a Bills fan, if you can't be excited about the team this year after the offseason we've had then maybe it's time to rither give up all together or just start finding another team. And that goes for anyone. I get how people can say they won't get too excited until more than half the season is underwraps. Last year was devastating. What's the point of following them so closely thought if you won't allow yourself to get excited just before fhe season starts after a killer offseason? Is it so people can just claim theyvwere fans all along when everyone starts jumping on the bandwagon again? If your still doubting after this year there's no hope. We couldn't do anything larger than what we did besides maybe signing Manning but at 36 and after multiple injuries he was suspect. Let's all just enjoy this ride as Bills fans together. I'm even going to stop talking bad about Brad Smith and the Wildcat. Best formation ever!!!!! Will win us games all on it's own and welcome it with open arms. Edited July 26, 2012 by mrags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Spencer Johnson is the reason why I think there is a REALLY good chance that Troupe and Carrington get cut....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eball Posted July 26, 2012 Author Share Posted July 26, 2012 FWIW, Buddy isn't the only one putting the pressure on Troup and Carrington. From Gailey's interview last night: On Troup, Carrington and the defensive tackle position: "Anybody that is going into their third year, it is time for them to step up. I think they will. I think they will give their very best effort. As you said, there is a lot of great competition. That is going to be a very difficult decision when it comes down to it. I think we have some good players in that area. Whoever produces and plays the best are the guys we are going to keep." That last part, I think, underscores my point about the organization in general. It doesn't matter who you are, in what round you were drafted, or how you were acquired. Produce, or we will find someone who will -- immediately. That's been lacking in Buffalo for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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