Malazan Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 One point that should be taken into consideration by the state and county, the 7 game checks for each participating player (two teams x7 games) is taxed by New York and Erie county. That revenue can be chased away without some sort of effort to appease the NFL and the Bills. By allowing the stadium to fall below the perceived "NFL level of satisfaction", Erie county and the state will stand to lose a percentage of 742 large game day checks (2 teams x 7 games x 53 players per team) As much as the state and county taxpayers wring their hands about the costs, what are the losses that will be realized if the team moves by way of lost NFL gameday paychecks? This is not including ancillary losses like vendors (taxed by state and county), stadium workers (taxed by state and county), restaurants (taxed by state and county)and hotels (taxed by state and county). Watching the Islanders and local politicians here piss and moan about improvements and a new facility, if they don't figure something out, the Islanders owner will move the team, the county will lose that gameday tax enrichment from the players/ticket sales etc. Already teetering on bankruptcy, this would push them over. Where else are you going to find someone to fill the 41 dates assigned to the hockey team? There are just so many circuses and music performers willing to take the venue. Maybe if we bring back the lions and the Christians as a weekly headliner we could fill the coliseum for a few months, but we still wouldn't get much from the performers daily paychecks since few remain when the dust settles. At least there is one useful post in this thread now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbb Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 As long as taxpayer money, now largely deficit spending, subsidizes the organization and therefore helps pay salaries and line Wilson's pockets, the team owes "from whence those monies came" something. Agree or disagree, that's a fact. IMO they owe it back. Not really taking a position here. Just think it's funny that somebody says it's a fact, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 One point that should be taken into consideration by the state and county, the 7 game checks for each participating player (two teams x7 games) is taxed by New York and Erie county. That revenue can be chased away without some sort of effort to appease the NFL and the Bills. By allowing the stadium to fall below the perceived "NFL level of satisfaction", Erie county and the state will stand to lose a percentage of 742 large game day checks (2 teams x 7 games x 53 players per team) As much as the state and county taxpayers wring their hands about the costs, what are the losses that will be realized if the team moves by way of lost NFL gameday paychecks? This is not including ancillary losses like vendors (taxed by state and county), stadium workers (taxed by state and county), restaurants (taxed by state and county)and hotels (taxed by state and county). Watching the Islanders and local politicians here piss and moan about improvements and a new facility, if they don't figure something out, the Islanders owner will move the team, the county will lose that gameday tax enrichment from the players/ticket sales etc. Already teetering on bankruptcy, this would push them over. Where else are you going to find someone to fill the 41 dates assigned to the hockey team? There are just so many circuses and music performers willing to take the venue. Maybe if we bring back the lions and the Christians as a weekly headliner we could fill the coliseum for a few months, but we still wouldn't get much from the performers daily paychecks since few remain when the dust settles. Unless the players own property in Erie County, they aren't paying tax to the county. And there is no need to ask what would happen if the Bills move because they aren't moving. And losing 7 game checks worth of state taxes on a hundred guys is not going to break NYS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle flap Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) Unless the players own property in Erie County, they aren't paying tax to the county. And there is no need to ask what would happen if the Bills move because they aren't moving. And losing 7 game checks worth of state taxes on a hundred guys is not going to break NYS. EDIT: I was way off on those figures, my apologies if you read my previous post. I'll try to find accurate #s Edited July 18, 2012 by uncle flap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 What should Seniors get who pay into the system for decades? It's not like there is a job market for them. How easy is it for people who are senior citizens to find work in general? Unless you want to send people to death camps after they reach a certain age they will need some type of program. Seems to me a program based on their working contribution is fair. Even with that, many seniors still don't have a lot of money. You act like these seniors are buying mansions with their medicaid checks. SMH... Redistribution of wealth? Not really. It should at least be a subject of discussion - but it isn't. Personally, I don't think that we should allocate a huge share of the GDP to paying for expensive medical treatments to extend seniors' lives from the ages of 80-95. At some point you've got to say no. And as for the fact that they've paid in for so long, guess what? The young wage earners paying into the system now are almost assured never to get their fair share when they're senior citizens, because the entire system will be bankrupt by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 i think it just boils down to whether one wants the bills to stay. i have said many times on various other posts that who in their right mind thinks it is right to subsidize millionaire NFL owners? in theory it is ludicrous, but the reality is it has to be done in the bills and WNY 's case. i think seeing a tangible return on tax dollars i e: stadium improvements is a no brainer. again, people can piss and moan about needing bridges, roads, all the happy horsesh-t you hear when the this comes up, but i think erie county and NY state are already grabbing their ankles because they all know it is politically expediant to keep the bills here. and i totally agree with the premise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 i think it just boils down to whether one wants the bills to stay. i have said many times on various other posts that who in their right mind thinks it is right to subsidize millionaire NFL owners? in theory it is ludicrous, but the reality is it has to be done in the bills and WNY 's case. i think seeing a tangible return on tax dollars i e: stadium improvements is a no brainer. again, people can piss and moan about needing bridges, roads, all the happy horsesh-t you hear when the this comes up, but i think erie county and NY state are already grabbing their ankles because they all know it is politically expediant to keep the bills here. and i totally agree with the premise. My concern is that Ralph may pass while the negotiations drag on. Not being flippant (this time). The County needs to understand that this negotiation becomes a helluva lot more complicated if Ralph dies before a lease deal is struck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloFan32 Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 "The Bills understand the county's financial position." Are the Bills supposed to feel sorry for us? At what point does the sympathy for being a small market team begin and end? The Bills owe us nothing and as much as I am not a fan of negotiating in a way that gives away everything because we should take advantage of anything that the state can help us with and the NFL. Just don't tell me that we have to worry about our medicaid budget or other things that reinforce crazy entitlements because the Bills weren't thinking about those things when they signed Mario Williams. They were trying to win football games and bring value to an entertaining product that brings revenue to the area instead of suck the area dry and push John Galt away. My advice would be to our county executive would be to keep it simple. The Bills and what they bring and what we can provide back. Who is John Galt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guffalo Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 EDIT: I was way off on those figures, my apologies if you read my previous post. I'll try to find accurate #s NYS tax ratesfor the players checks 7-9% so if the NFL salary floor is 120 million per year, 8% of that would be 9.5 M per year, surely the state can figure out a way to waste that kind of money on frivolous items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle flap Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) NYS tax ratesfor the players checks 7-9% so if the NFL salary floor is 120 million per year, 8% of that would be 9.5 M per year, surely the state can figure out a way to waste that kind of money on frivolous items. I had to step out for a while. I did look around briefly earlier and found that according to different estimates the Bills stand to generate anywhere from $10 to $25 M per year. I couldn't find definitive breakdowns. Last fall, Chris Collins said the Bills generate around $10 M per year, but many other articles cite $15-$25 M (including ESPN, Buffalo News, Albany Times-Union, Artvoice, Rochester D&C). Again, I couldn't find a basis for those numbers, so I'm not sure how there is such a discrepancy. The $400 M figure was based on what the Bills would generate in taxes over the time of a 15 year lease or something like that. Obviously, that breaks down to over $25 M per year. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the article I saw some time ago, so I could just be remembering wrong, or the author/source could've been wrong. The point I was going for is that the state stands to lose money without the Bills, so over time, the $200 M or whatever they kick in will be recouped by the taxes generated, and then some. I realize now that that may not exactly be true, and I may have just seen some creative accounting somewhere. I know the counter argument is that the people of WNY would just spend their money on other things, so the sales tax and boost to the local economy would be the same, but the player and coaches salaries simply vanish- which is a direct loss to the state. I also saw somewhere that those taxes are collected on a per game basis at a rate of around 30%- different than an annually based individual rate like you posted. Also, it would be on the Bills players' and their opponents' checks when they play in NY. When the Bills play elsewhere, their game check is taxed by that state/municipality. I have to run again, so I apologize I don't have time to dig deeper and find the actual numbers or links to back this stuff up. I'll look again later tonight, but if you or anyone else has any other insight, please enlighten us. EDIT: Guffalo- you're right about the state rates- the avg of over 30% I mentioned is based on including the federal rate as well. I still can't find the breakdown for for the taxes generated by the Bills, but it seems the approximately $9.5 M is on point with what the Bills bring in beyond the sales tax generated by fans, and could be the basis for Collins's $10 M estimate. I think the Collins may not be including the additional money cited by other articles based on the idea fans would just spend that money on other things in the area, however there are still the taxes generated by visitors from other WNY/CNY counties, PA, and Canada. Perhaps that $ isn't significant. Too bad there isn't more data readily available on this subject. Edited July 19, 2012 by uncle flap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meark Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 It should at least be a subject of discussion - but it isn't. Personally, I don't think that we should allocate a huge share of the GDP to paying for expensive medical treatments to extend seniors' lives from the ages of 80-95. At some point you've got to say no. And as for the fact that they've paid in for so long, guess what? The young wage earners paying into the system now are almost assured never to get their fair share when they're senior citizens, because the entire system will be bankrupt by then. I wonder if you would feel the same way if you were 85 and needed surgery to survive another 5-10 years? That's a pretty !@#$ed up attitude.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 My concern is that Ralph may pass while the negotiations drag on. Not being flippant (this time). The County needs to understand that this negotiation becomes a helluva lot more complicated if Ralph dies before a lease deal is struck. absolutely..could not agree more! negotiations are negotiations, but the bottom line is WNY, the county, state, etc, are negogiating from a position of weakness, right or wrong, i sure hope they get it done and let the loudmouths have their say after the deal is done. i realize its taxpayers money, but my reality is that the bills need to stay whatever the ramnifications, tax dollars spent be damned, they waste enough as it is, let me have the bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I wonder if you would feel the same way if you were 85 and needed surgery to survive another 5-10 years? That's a pretty !@#$ed up attitude.. Actually I would feel that way, as do older folks in most other cultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAWNDO Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 absolutely..could not agree more! negotiations are negotiations, but the bottom line is WNY, the county, state, etc, are negogiating from a position of weakness, right or wrong, i sure hope they get it done and let the loudmouths have their say after the deal is done. i realize its taxpayers money, but my reality is that the bills need to stay whatever the ramnifications, tax dollars spent be damned, they waste enough as it is, let me have the bills. Good point. Everybody's tax dollars are spent on something they do not like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Who is John Galt? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=john+galt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 http://lmgtfy.com/?q=john+galt It's the first line of the book, he was joking. (I hope.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealityCheck Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Nor do I really care. Get rid of unions which artificially drive up labor costs, and you'll get rid of most of the outsourcing. Unions kill jobs. Astute deduction considering only 14% of labor is done by unions anymore, and that number is projected to be in the single digits by the end of this decade. Where do you stand on material costs since that is typically in the range of 2-4 times adjusted labor costs for major commercial construction? Are you one of the many that thinks the 200 million renovation estimate is simply labor costs? What about the bloated rental costs on heavy equipment, cranes, and man lifts? What about the fuel costs alone? How about the cost for architectural drawings that are typically engineering swiss cheese on a job sight. I see China as a good country to emulate. When you look at what you get for the price and then what the workers earn it is a win win for a guy like me. The quality of life for the average Chinese worker is excellent. American workers, union or typically otherwise, want way to much money no matter how you cut it. For example, how much would you want to get paid per hour to be an ironworker for 30 years? What ever that number is, it's way to much when I can use an illegal that I don't even have to insure properly. My view of prevailing wage is that it should be what ever a day laborer on the street corner will charge for the day. If that is not good enough for you then that is yet another job that an American won't do. I love how that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 The point I was going for is that the state stands to lose money without the Bills, so over time, the $200 M or whatever they kick in will be recouped by the taxes generated, and then some. I realize now that that may not exactly be true, and I may have just seen some creative accounting somewhere. It's amazing how mauch this argument is repeated. It makes no sense. If youtax the same group making the same amount of money at the same rate this year as next year, or the year after that, you don't make any "extra money". You get the same tax revenue as you get today--without the extra 200 million required for the stadium renovation. Unless renovating the stadium itself results in a lot more taxable income from the Bills, there is no way the renoavation can "pay for itself". I have seen nowhere published any evidence that this would result in a ton more money for NYS to tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHBillsFan Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 (edited) The quality of life for the average Chinese worker is excellent. American workers, union or typically otherwise, want way to much money no matter how you cut it. For example, how much would you want to get paid per hour to be an ironworker for 30 years? What ever that number is, it's way to much when I can use an illegal that I don't even have to insure properly. My view of prevailing wage is that it should be what ever a day laborer on the street corner will charge for the day. If that is not good enough for you then that is yet another job that an American won't do. I love how that works. When unions are a thing of the past, then who is going to be blamed for the lack of quality employment? Even the father of American finance, Alexander Hamilton, was against free trade and pure capitalism, because he knew of the negative effects. The very notion that capitalism means it be without feeling and unchecked is a joke. Edited July 19, 2012 by BmoreBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Info Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 How many teams around the league charge "personal seat licences" for the honor of being able to buy your ticket ... ever hear of the Bills even entertaining the thought??? It appears 15 charge some sort of PSL. Sport PSLs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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