Can Fitzpatrick be an upper echelon QB?

[San-O]

I don't think we can beat teams like the patriots, packers or giants with an offensive attitude like this. Our offense needs to be able to put points on the board and our quaterback definitely needs to be able to lead a game winning drive and come up big with clutch throws. what you described is a quaterback who "manages" the game and cannot carry a team. QBs that carry a team are the QBs that win superbowl. The days of Trent Dilfer are looking further and further away.

 

 

I think you AND JFH are both right: The days of game managers do seem further and further away, however Fitz is what we have right now, and if the Bills want to get a sniff this year, they need to go more with what is working for them and stop forcing the passing game.

 

I fault Gailey more than anything else. Going over some of the games logs in critical possessions/situations if revealing.

[eball]

I think you AND JFH are both right: The days of game managers do seem further and further away, however Fitz is what we have right now, and if the Bills want to get a sniff this year, they need to go more with what is working for them and stop forcing the passing game.

 

I fault Gailey more than anything else. Going over some of the games logs in critical possessions/situations if revealing.

You're going to have to refresh my memory here, because I don't recall ANY critical possessions/situations at the end of close games last year in which the playcalling was to blame.

 

KC -- n/a (rout)

Oakland -- check (huge comeback win with lots of late clutch plays)

NE* -- check (see above)

Cincy -- lost on last second GW FG (defense sucked)

Philly -- n/a (defense held; offense could run out clock)

NYG -- Fitz made two critical 4th Q mistakes on open throws to Stevie (playcalling not to blame)

Skins -- n/a (rout)

Jets -- n/a (rout the wrong way, and 1st game post-Fitz injury)

Cowboys -- n/a (rout the wrong way)

Fish -- n/a (rout the wrong way)

Titans -- n/a (got ball at own 11 with 1:13 to play)

Chargers -- n/a (rout the wrong way)

Fish -- offense scored on last three possessions

Broncos -- n/a (rout)

NE* -- n/a (rout the other way)

[truth on hold]

I think its unfair to Eli to compare Fitz to him.. Fitz was drafted 1 year after him and has accomplished nothing compared to the giant QB.

Fitz does not have Eli's arm. Thats the problem right there. Plain as day to see it.

[NoSaint]

Fitz does not have Eli's arm. Thats the problem right there. Plain as day to see it.

 

bingo.

 

fitz slid because there were some natural tools he doesnt have. he can still succeed but his ceiling is not as high as others.

 

every qb has limiting factors, and his happens to be his arm. its good enough to win, but not elite.

[mattsox]

Can he be? Sure.

 

Will he be? I'm not so sure... we still don't have enough quality offensive talent to make that determination based upon his past record, and if he was an upper echelon QB now he would elevate the play of his teammates. I doubt Fitz is capable of doing this if his accuracy problems and nagging injury problems continue.

 

Yeah, This is topic should be filed under wait and see...

[John from Riverside]

I don't think we can beat teams like the patriots, packers or giants with an offensive attitude like this. Our offense needs to be able to put points on the board and our quaterback definitely needs to be able to lead a game winning drive and come up big with clutch throws. what you described is a quaterback who "manages" the game and cannot carry a team. QBs that carry a team are the QBs that win superbowl. The days of Trent Dilfer are looking further and further away.

 

What I described is a team that doesn't put it all on the QB's shoulders.

 

Fitz still has to do his part.....there is no doubt about that.......this team WAS putting up points last year until injuries starting hitting us.....

 

- The Fitz rib thing has been done to death

- Stevie Johnson played with a groin issue nearly the whole year.....which got progressively worse

- TE got hurt

- Easley goes down

- Jones is in and out of lineup with injury

- We were playing LEVITRE at left tackle.....and the debocle at center

- We lose a RB putting up pro bowl numbers for the season

 

 

oh and while all of this was going on.....OUR DEFENSE WAS SUCKING OUT LOUD

 

 

Its not that this offense does not have the ability to play smart football and still put up points....then can and have SHOWN that when healthy they can......but when you put all of the parts together.....injuries.....poor defense....and lack of depth....eventually the team just fell apart.

 

There is NO REASON to think that this team cannot put points on the board.....they have shown they can do it.....only now when the offense has a bad day we hopefully have a defense that dominates their part and we still can win.

 

 

I feel REALLY good about this upcoming season.....I see a team that even if the offense gets off to a slow start.....the defense erases it until they find their flow....WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THIS TEAM HAD THAT.

[paintmyhouse]

It helps when you have receivers such as Burress, Hicks, Manningham and Cruz... Fitz has enjoyed no such advantage.

 

So, you think those guys develop into the players they are now with Fitzpatrick? Ugh. No way possible, Eli made those guys, Manningham will have no success in his new place. Manning kept Burress relevant for extra years as he got slow.

 

It's easy to look at the success of the team last year and assume it was all on Fitzpatrick. The fact of the matter is that it simply wasn't. The defense was absolutely horrendous, particularly on third and long. They simply couldn't stop anyone. This leaves the play calling coming from the sidelines to be aggressive to stay in games, and the resultant turnovers. Let's look at some facts here:

 

Fitzpatrick was the worst starter in the NFL in INT's, and the 5th worst starter in the NFL in INT percentage per pass attempt. If these turnovers are a result of poor mechanics and he gets them under control, then you can look at all the other metrics that support the notion that he could be in that upper echelon of quarterbacks. I would further define "upper echelon" as top-8. Here's why:

 

Despite being injured from essentially game 6 on, here's where he ended the season among starters:

 

TD's - 10th

Passing Yards - 11th

Completion % - 9th

Sacks - 1st

 

The real question that people aren't asking is an important one though. If we assume that the defense is vastly improved from last year, will the Bills still be running that same type of aggressive offense that they ran last year? While we won't know until that very first game against the Jets, I would say that I don't think so. If the Bills can get up on their opponents by 7-10 points, I think you'll see a lot more ball control offense with Jackson and Spiller and a lot more short to intermediate pass routes. At the end of the day, I would say we've seen improvement in 3 straight years from him and I have no reason to believe that Lee won't help him to improve further. The only question is by how much.

 

QB rating takes all those into consideration, and he was not close to the top, he was 22nd. You have to look at yards per game, not just yards, use the stat correct if you are going to use it. You don't even use correct stats in the same post. You talk about a TD percentage to show how he was not the worst. You don't even use apples and apples in your defense of him, that just shows how terible Fitzpatrick is.

[Billsrhody]

What I described is a team that doesn't put it all on the QB's shoulders.

 

Fitz still has to do his part.....there is no doubt about that.......this team WAS putting up points last year until injuries starting hitting us.....

 

- The Fitz rib thing has been done to death

- Stevie Johnson played with a groin issue nearly the whole year.....which got progressively worse

- TE got hurt

- Easley goes down

- Jones is in and out of lineup with injury

- We were playing LEVITRE at left tackle.....and the debocle at center

- We lose a RB putting up pro bowl numbers for the season

 

 

oh and while all of this was going on.....OUR DEFENSE WAS SUCKING OUT LOUD

 

 

Its not that this offense does not have the ability to play smart football and still put up points....then can and have SHOWN that when healthy they can......but when you put all of the parts together.....injuries.....poor defense....and lack of depth....eventually the team just fell apart.

 

There is NO REASON to think that this team cannot put points on the board.....they have shown they can do it.....only now when the offense has a bad day we hopefully have a defense that dominates their part and we still can win.

 

 

I feel REALLY good about this upcoming season.....I see a team that even if the offense gets off to a slow start.....the defense erases it until they find their flow....WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THIS TEAM HAD THAT.

 

Everyone uses the injury excuse.. for Fitz, Stevie, Fred, Wood, Bell, Jones, Merriman, Easley, Williams. But the truth is, guys get hurt. Players get hurt on every team, every year, no matter how good or bad. The giants lost Boss, Nicks was in and out of games, Bradshaw missed 4 games last year. The packers lost Greg Jennings, Ryan Grant.

 

Some Bills are going to get injured. I guarantee a starter on offense will get hurt at some point this year. You have to be good enough to overcome that.

[Gugny]

IMO opinion Fitz does not have to be a upper echelon QB in order for this team to win....

 

He simply needs to know his role and not press out of it.

 

- Throw the passes that you can throw accurately

 

- DONT FORCE IT.....hopefully now we have a defense that will keep us in games so we dont need to force the ball trying to make something happen. If its not there.....throw the ball away......let the defense (which we have put LOADS of talent on) keep us in the games.......I dont worry as much about them being on the field now because we have a quality DL rotation.......even when Mario and Kelsay come out for a blow...here comes Merriman and Anderson......even when Williams and Darius come out for a blow......in comes Heard, or Spencer Johnson, or Carrington, or Troup......I know the back names at DT dont WOW anybody.....but when you consider who will be playing NEXT to them at any given time......we will still be ok.

 

- We have a VERY nice duo of running backs....USE THEM

 

- This offensive line looks quite good on paper......it appears that we have depth as well......

 

 

I dont think Fitz needs to be all world in order to win....in fact I think that the bills have nicely set him up for success.

THIS!

 

Everyone uses the injury excuse.. for Fitz, Stevie, Fred, Wood, Bell, Jones, Merriman, Easley, Williams. But the truth is, guys get hurt. Players get hurt on every team, every year, no matter how good or bad. The giants lost Boss, Nicks was in and out of games, Bradshaw missed 4 games last year. The packers lost Greg Jennings, Ryan Grant.

 

Some Bills are going to get injured. I guarantee a starter on offense will get hurt at some point this year. You have to be good enough to overcome that.

There is not one team in NFL history that could have overcome the injury bug that bit Buffalo last year. That was beyond "normal course of business."

[Billsrhody]

There is not one team in NFL history that could have overcome the injury bug that bit Buffalo last year. That was beyond "normal course of business."

 

So we lost a great RB that got replaced by a good RB. We lost a good C and got average replacement play. We lost a great DT who got replaced by an average DT. The only other major "injury" is that our QB was banged up.

 

You dont think any team in NFL history could have overcome that? We weren't even close last year. It would be one thing if we were 9-7 and just missed the playoffs... but losing only a few guys and plummeting to 6-10 means that something else was wrong.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

For his career he has 68 TDs and 65 INTs.

 

That seams more of a decision issue than mechanics, IMO.

 

 

http://www.nfl.com/player/ryanfitzpatrick/2506581/profile

 

While I can see your point, having watched every game last year the predominant number of picks in my mind were the right wr's but under thrown. There was one against the jets where he threw into coverage trying to force something that just was not there, but it was the exception in my mind.

 

Favre and brees both demonstrate well that you can go up and down with season int totals. When you are not winning, you gamble more when you are winning and trust your D, punting is ok.

Edited July 16, 2012 by over 20 years of fanhood

[HOUSE]

He needs finger extension surgery

 

[John from Riverside]

Everyone uses the injury excuse.. for Fitz, Stevie, Fred, Wood, Bell, Jones, Merriman, Easley, Williams. But the truth is, guys get hurt. Players get hurt on every team, every year, no matter how good or bad. The giants lost Boss, Nicks was in and out of games, Bradshaw missed 4 games last year. The packers lost Greg Jennings, Ryan Grant.

 

Some Bills are going to get injured. I guarantee a starter on offense will get hurt at some point this year. You have to be good enough to overcome that.

 

Its interesting you bring up the Giants as an example.....you know what the Giants had? A DOMINATING DEFENSIVE LINE...

 

hmmmmmm

 

Personally I think your cherry picking to push your agenda

 

So we lost a great RB that got replaced by a good RB. We lost a good C and got average replacement play. We lost a great DT who got replaced by an average DT. The only other major "injury" is that our QB was banged up.

 

You dont think any team in NFL history could have overcome that? We weren't even close last year. It would be one thing if we were 9-7 and just missed the playoffs... but losing only a few guys and plummeting to 6-10 means that something else was wrong.

 

Your arguement is weak

 

- Freddie Jackson was one of the BEST running backs in the league last year....and he was replaced with a guy who while talented is still finding his way

 

- You dont thinking losing Eric Wood...having to shift a guy over to his spot.....then having to shift a backup into his.....along with being down to 3rd string LT isnt going to cause issues? Really?

 

- Our QB was banged up with an absolute lack of faith on anyone behind him.

 

And while your bitching about the QB...keep in mind that the real problem from last year....they LAST PLACE DEFENSE did have something to do with our record.

 

You CANNOT point at the QB and blame him for a losing season.....that is just simple minded

[Green Lightning]

Everyone uses the injury excuse.. for Fitz, Stevie, Fred, Wood, Bell, Jones, Merriman, Easley, Williams. But the truth is, guys get hurt. Players get hurt on every team, every year, no matter how good or bad. The giants lost Boss, Nicks was in and out of games, Bradshaw missed 4 games last year. The packers lost Greg Jennings, Ryan Grant.

 

Some Bills are going to get injured. I guarantee a starter on offense will get hurt at some point this year. You have to be good enough to overcome that.

 

Um the Giants were so-so, or at least not on anyone's radar to win the Superbowl, until they got their folks back from injuries. Then they dominated. Our guys never came back. It's way too early to judge Fitz. He had cracked ribs. If he tanks this year, we'll know the deal. If you ever cracked a rib, breathing is not easy much less playing QB in the NFL.

[ReturnoftheBuffaloBeast23]

Funny answer with some one who has maybe the most over rated QB in history as their avatar.

 

As for my answer to the question, yes. All of the injuries including Fitz's broken ribs happened around the same time, and it was a clear drop off. IF most every one stays healthy, there is no indication to say he cannot be a QB in the 6-12 range which isn't really the top echelon, but still is upper.

 

HAHA! Mike Vick is over rated? You probably think Tom Brady is over rated? C'mon Son a 3x Pro Bowler, Passing and Rushing records, Only person to beat Brett Favor in Lambeau under 20 degrees.. But that guy is overrated? I think thats more hate than fact... Back on Fitzgarbage what has he done to prove he is or will ever be upper echelon? Beat N.E. AND!!!!!! That was big but it was one game and how many ints did he throw last season compared to touchdowns (how do you throw 2 ints to the same player on the exact same play in the same game? See Giants vs Buffalo) ? Oh his ribs were cracked yep thats a great excuse to use keep using it... After he's replaced for VY this year I'm a comeback to this thread and see if you still think he is upper echelon.... #CHECK

[Fan in San Diego]

IMO opinion Fitz does not have to be a upper echelon QB in order for this team to win....

 

He simply needs to know his role and not press out of it.

 

- Throw the passes that you can throw accurately

 

- DONT FORCE IT.....hopefully now we have a defense that will keep us in games so we dont need to force the ball trying to make something happen. If its not there.....throw the ball away......let the defense (which we have put LOADS of talent on) keep us in the games.......I dont worry as much about them being on the field now because we have a quality DL rotation.......even when Mario and Kelsay come out for a blow...here comes Merriman and Anderson......even when Williams and Darius come out for a blow......in comes Heard, or Spencer Johnson, or Carrington, or Troup......I know the back names at DT dont WOW anybody.....but when you consider who will be playing NEXT to them at any given time......we will still be ok.

 

- We have a VERY nice duo of running backs....USE THEM

 

- This offensive line looks quite good on paper......it appears that we have depth as well......

 

 

I dont think Fitz needs to be all world in order to win....in fact I think that the bills have nicely set him up for success.

 

Hand the ball off to Fred Ex and CJ. He doesn't need to be throwing the ball like crazy.

[26TrapDraw]

It's easy to look at the success of the team last year and assume it was all on Fitzpatrick. The fact of the matter is that it simply wasn't. The defense was absolutely horrendous, particularly on third and long. They simply couldn't stop anyone. This leaves the play calling coming from the sidelines to be aggressive to stay in games, and the resultant turnovers. Let's look at some facts here:

 

Fitzpatrick was the worst starter in the NFL in INT's, and the 5th worst starter in the NFL in INT percentage per pass attempt. If these turnovers are a result of poor mechanics and he gets them under control, then you can look at all the other metrics that support the notion that he could be in that upper echelon of quarterbacks. I would further define "upper echelon" as top-8. Here's why:

 

Despite being injured from essentially game 6 on, here's where he ended the season among starters:

 

TD's - 10th

Passing Yards - 11th

Completion % - 9th

Sacks - 1st

 

The real question that people aren't asking is an important one though. If we assume that the defense is vastly improved from last year, will the Bills still be running that same type of aggressive offense that they ran last year? While we won't know until that very first game against the Jets, I would say that I don't think so. If the Bills can get up on their opponents by 7-10 points, I think you'll see a lot more ball control offense with Jackson and Spiller and a lot more short to intermediate pass routes. At the end of the day, I would say we've seen improvement in 3 straight years from him and I have no reason to believe that Lee won't help him to improve further. The only question is by how much.

This...good post

[Ramblin' Rob]

HAHA! Mike Vick is over rated? You probably think Tom Brady is over rated? C'mon Son a 3x Pro Bowler, Passing and Rushing records, Only person to beat Brett Favor in Lambeau under 20 degrees.. But that guy is overrated? I think thats more hate than fact... Back on Fitzgarbage what has he done to prove he is or will ever be upper echelon? Beat N.E. AND!!!!!! That was big but it was one game and how many ints did he throw last season compared to touchdowns (how do you throw 2 ints to the same player on the exact same play in the same game? See Giants vs Buffalo) ? Oh his ribs were cracked yep thats a great excuse to use keep using it... After he's replaced for VY this year I'm a comeback to this thread and see if you still think he is upper echelon.... #CHECK

 

No hate, I actually think he has been a mostly model citizen since getting out of prison. I also said, over rated, not bad. He is ok, but the next big game he wins will be his second. I will give you the rushing records, but what passing records? He has only topped 3000 yards twice in his career, and that also equals the number of Playoff wins he has. It also is the number of times he as had a passer rating over 90. Comparing brady and vick is wierd too, brady is tons better. Additionally I consider there to be about five truly upper echelon QB'S, Brees, Brady, P. Manning, Rothlisburger, and eli or maybe rivers. I say, and the numbers back it up, when healthy, fitz is in the next tier some where between 6 or 7 and 15 right where Vick is. it is up to you to define what Upper echelon means. To be clear, I dont think Fitz is as good as those guys listed above, but neither is Vick

 

You are misinformed if you think Broken ribs would not affect a QB'S throws. all of the injured lineman and WR's also will make a QB look a bit pedestrian as well. He was a top ten QB last year before all of those injuries on offense happened in the span of about 3-4 games. When he lost his protection (o=line), security blanket(FJ), and the health of his recievers(even stevie played on a bum groin) he had much worse numbers. And yeah, i get the fact that every team deals with injuries, but not that many and most organizations have better depth at those positions.

 

TO SUMMERIZE; vick is over rated, not bad(again, please provide any passing records). Fitz is under rated, not great. If forced to rate them against each other, i would rank vick higher. Injuries on a team with a lack of depth is more harmful than injuries on say NE OR NYG.

 

A final note, I don't get grown men calling people names like 'Fitzgarbage.' Win or lose, he has been great for Buffalo, grow up or at least use a little imagination.

Edited July 17, 2012 by RichmondRob

[Billsrhody]

Its interesting you bring up the Giants as an example.....you know what the Giants had? A DOMINATING DEFENSIVE LINE...

 

hmmmmmm

 

Personally I think your cherry picking to push your agenda

 

 

 

Your arguement is weak

 

- Freddie Jackson was one of the BEST running backs in the league last year....and he was replaced with a guy who while talented is still finding his way

 

- You dont thinking losing Eric Wood...having to shift a guy over to his spot.....then having to shift a backup into his.....along with being down to 3rd string LT isnt going to cause issues? Really?

 

- Our QB was banged up with an absolute lack of faith on anyone behind him.

 

And while your bitching about the QB...keep in mind that the real problem from last year....they LAST PLACE DEFENSE did have something to do with our record.

 

You CANNOT point at the QB and blame him for a losing season.....that is just simple minded

 

I'm not sure why you bothered going through and basically repeating everything I said. I said fred was great and admitted a drop off. I said wood was good and admitted a drop off. I mentioned that Fitz was banged up. Also I completely disagree that Fitz had a lack of faith. He was the only one who was every going to start. He had an absolute guarantee on his position. Who showed a lack of faith?

 

Our defense was last place in the league by any measure.. you who else had awful defenses though? The patriots and the packers. Why were they so successful? A good QB. Why is pointing at the most important position in team sports and blaming him for a losing season foolish??

 

Um the Giants were so-so, or at least not on anyone's radar to win the Superbowl, until they got their folks back from injuries. Then they dominated. Our guys never came back. It's way too early to judge Fitz. He had cracked ribs. If he tanks this year, we'll know the deal. If you ever cracked a rib, breathing is not easy much less playing QB in the NFL.

 

All I'm saying is I don't think Fitz will ever join that elite group of QBs. I agree that this year will tell us alot about how far he can bring this team. But if we lose another couple starts on offense and go 7-9, I hope people don't start using that as an excuse again.

[John from Riverside]

I'm not sure why you bothered going through and basically repeating everything I said. I said fred was great and admitted a drop off. I said wood was good and admitted a drop off. I mentioned that Fitz was banged up. Also I completely disagree that Fitz had a lack of faith. He was the only one who was every going to start. He had an absolute guarantee on his position. Who showed a lack of faith?

 

Our defense was last place in the league by any measure.. you who else had awful defenses though? The patriots and the packers. Why were they so successful? A good QB. Why is pointing at the most important position in team sports and blaming him for a losing season foolish??

 

 

 

All I'm saying is I don't think Fitz will ever join that elite group of QBs. I agree that this year will tell us alot about how far he can bring this team. But if we lose another couple starts on offense and go 7-9, I hope people don't start using that as an excuse again.

 

That is not how you presented your arguement and you know it.....you are presenting that we went from good to average.....as in a average guy should allow your team to win. In the end you state that it all falls back on the QB.

 

The bills have decided to go with 2nd teir QB in Fitz...he isnt horrible...he isn't a pro bowler...and instead biuld the team up AROUND him.

 

 

you are just trying to bash on Fitz....which frankly is a horse that is in the glue factor already.....personally I am hoping that my theory on the defense is true and that a defense that isn't swiss cheese allows us to run the ball more.....allowing Fitz to pick his spots to take chances...look better....and shut posters like you up....but...chances are we wont make the super bowl this year so you will still be out there bitching about the QB.