truth on hold Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 And that sentiment is something the Romney campaign should be able to sell, would you agree? Why not try to own it? If some outsourcing happened under his watch then explain the situation that motivates business to do so and how you understand that well and want to enact policies to make America more competitive. Or you would just try and distance yourself from your own company even when there's clear ammo w/ the SEC filings...that seems less effective. If the tax issue isn't going away, why not just release them and say "there's the tax structure as is...we should reform it in following ways" and roll right into some specific plans for America regarding tax reform. They are going to have to outline a vision for America. If you are having trouble dealing with some fire then use it as a platform when all cameras are on you to talk about those issues and your vision for a plan regarding them. They said themselves...if you are defending you are losing....and then they just ... defend. Campaign wise the whole thing seems botched at this moment. "should" I don't know. But as stated previously I think this is the #1 battle ground because it speaks to Obama's greatest weakness and Romney's most important potential strength. I agree Romney has to do something to turn this around, and if I were part of his campaign Id be working 24/7 to figure it out. But as you say the mood of the country is anti-business with a particular contempt for Wall Street. One thing people arent getting is assessing Bain on how many jobs they created at companies they bought. When that has nothing to do with Private Equity. The only company Romney's performance should be assessed at is Bain, how much did they grow and how otherwise successful were they under his leadership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Now is unfortunately not really the time to try and teach economics, especially with the average persons 10 second attention span. You have to reduce issues to a way that you can communicate them to run for office. Now isn't really the time to just be realizing this as a Presidential campaign. And he was hammered (to be fair with far less money) on this in the primary and it lost him South Carolina ... later on you had Santorum going around proclaiming him the worst Republican to run against Obama ... Santorum is Santorum and I know the campaign hates him but they should at least listen to his attacks. He was trying to sell himself by saying Romney will have a difficult time selling himself over Obama b/c of Romneycare, wall street backlash, tax reform as a hot topic etc...this wasn't Santorum being a genius. This was Santorum stating the obvious. So from a campaign stand point you would think they would be ready to defend their own guy well on obvious points. Plant some seeds early, try and control the discussion, guard against potential pitfalls (taxes, the SEC filing)...but the discussion got away the tax/filing is currently hitting hard and the Obama referendum isn't going to be a campaign pitch if Obama uses these to continue to frame it as an actual election with 2 candidates where 1 is building the middle the class and the other is a rich outsourcing tax cheat who is nothing like average Americans. Now may not be the time to teach economics but he's got to be ready to sell what he's offering ... his economic vision with some level of detail and himself as a business man in a non-negative light. Edited July 17, 2012 by TheNewBills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dayman Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 "should" I don't know. But as stated previously I think this is the #1 battle ground because it speaks to Obama's greatest weakness and Romney's most important potential strength. I agree Romney has to do something to turn this around, and if I were part of his campaign Id be working 24/7 to figure it out. But as you say the mood of the country is anti-business with a particular contempt for Wall Street. One thing people arent getting is assessing Bain on how many jobs they created at companies they bought. When that has nothing to do with Private Equity. The only company Romney's performance should be assessed at is Bain, how much did they grow and how otherwise successful were they under his leadership. I don't know about that. I would sell Bain as a success as he has done and it should be easy...but you have to talk about the companies Bain bought and what those companies did b/c those are the jobs people understand and care about. He has to make the argument that Bain was valuable to the American economy. He did that alright round 1 w/ the general attacks on private equity flopping (although a lot of that was the Obama campaign botching the first round). But in this new wave he's getting drowned out. He needs to adapt and find a way to say "Look, I ran Bain. We did a lot of good. I know business. As for the specific examples the President wants to use against me, those show first hand I know what government policy means to the decisions of business decision makers. I'm ready to change policy so that those decisions benefit America more than they have in the past, so that shot callers make the decisions America wants them to make b/c they're the most profitable decisions." Then roll into some ideas you want to run on. It doesn't seem that hard. You have to expose yourself a little, it's true. But you will be exposed either way. YOu have to be proactive and then transfer the discussion to the policy you think will change the situation for the better from American workers perspective. To do this you need to come out with your vision, specifics...then you can sell that you are a business guy on their side. You can't basically expose yourself to a business record that didn't always grow American jobs without some specifics on the plan that show you are in fact trying to do that in office. Generally speaking though, you have to own what you are running on. If you want the discussion on Bain and not Mass...then you can't marginalize it and run from it. Hard as it may be, you have to sell the success/high points and then use the vulnerable examples as a chance to explain why your specific policy you want to enact as President will change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted July 17, 2012 Author Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) I agree with all that except discussing jobs at portfolio companies. Thats not a metric Private Equity firms judged themselves on, so trying to set it up as one now is doomed to fail ... I dont have all the numbers, but they very well have had more firings than hirings. Dead end path for Romney to go down. The PE firm Carlyle had good ammo to defend itself, showing the returns they got for investors and that those investors by and large were state pension funds and college endowments ... i.e. Bain delievered for its investors, for better, more secure retirements for retirees and better educations for our nations college youth. Thats the only societal benefit case one can make for PE. And then parlay that into he saw an opportunity to use Bain's consulting practice as a PE powerhouse, which he did. Hes an opportunistic capitalist who makes things happen, his skill is spotting economic opportunities and inspiring others to do same. He did it at Bain, he'll do it in the White House. Far better than a career lawyer-politician ever could, whose proven as much with 4 years of economic stagnation. I dont have all the answers, but something like that would be my framework. Take your chance and sink or swim with it, because trying to be apologetic or pretend the objective was portfolio company job growth is guaranteed "sink" IMO Edited July 17, 2012 by Joe_the_6_pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 You have to reduce issues to a way that you can communicate them to run for office. Now isn't really the time to just be realizing this as a Presidential campaign. And he was hammered (to be fair with far less money) on this in the primary and it lost him South Carolina ... later on you had Santorum going around proclaiming him the worst Republican to run against Obama ... Santorum is Santorum and I know the campaign hates him but they should at least listen to his attacks. He was trying to sell himself by saying Romney will have a difficult time selling himself over Obama b/c of Romneycare, wall street backlash, tax reform as a hot topic etc...this wasn't Santorum being a genius. This was Santorum stating the obvious. So from a campaign stand point you would think they would be ready to defend their own guy well on obvious points. Plant some seeds early, try and control the discussion, guard against potential pitfalls (taxes, the SEC filing)...but the discussion got away the tax/filing is currently hitting hard and the Obama referendum isn't going to be a campaign pitch if Obama uses these to continue to frame it as an actual election with 2 candidates where 1 is building the middle the class and the other is a rich outsourcing tax cheat who is nothing like average Americans. Now may not be the time to teach economics but he's got to be ready to sell what he's offering ... his economic vision with some level of detail and himself as a business man in a non-negative light. You may be right, but if Mitt Romney's tax records & Obama's war on business is resonating with people and picking up enough traction to overcome the abortion of a Presidency he's turned in thus far, we might as well cash in our chips and head for the hills because the American experiment is over. Envy has won out, symbolism has defeated substance, the golden goose has been slaughtered as retribution for an abstract concept, & the next step towards Idiocracy has been taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck_dodgers007 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Seems like Obama cares about America while Romney just cares about idiological free market principles that hurt the country. Imagine electing a president that only cared out Conservative free market ideology instead of our nation? Neither can I! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Seems like Obama cares about America while Romney just cares about idiological free market principles that hurt the country. Imagine electing a president that only cared out Conservative free market ideology instead of our nation? Neither can I! How fortunate for all of us then, that your premise that Mitt doesn't care about America, is laughably false. No matter how it seems to you................ . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I'm starting to think Obama. Both are off to disgraceful starts IMO with lies and smears, when America is owed real debate and discussion. Dems trying to demonize MR for heading Bain. So what? It's the private sector and he did what private equity firms do. Unless there's something illegal, nothing wrong with it. Matter of fact everything is right with it from an American success story perspective. MR doing his part running around saying BO is "soft on defense", promising to keep defense jobs in key states where it's a big part of the economy, even though it's wholly irresponsbile for a so-called "fiscal conservative" to be making any such budget promises when the Federal Government is on the financial precipice and defense is the #1 discretionary item. Major cuts in defense and entitlements are needed, and everyone freaking knows it. But I think the early rounds are starting to go to BO, with his campaign organizers showing better media war skills. BO will also be a better, more proven fighter than primary lightweights. To account for the lackluster economy, he'll point to the state of the nation he inherited from Bush. And he has plenty of "ammunition" to show he's more than willing to offer American lives and tax dollars for foreign wars. The supporters he aliented like gays and peaceniks will be easily wooed back (already saw with gay marriage), because they won't see Mitt as an alternative. I also think he'll be an animal in the debates and tear MR a new one, like Cheney did to Edwards in VP debates. Remember, Mitt never had to go one on one in primaries. One thing up for grabs given the sleazy starts is taking the high road and appealing more to Americans on an intellectual level. BO did it to Hillary in the primaries (the latter running a "promise the locals anything" campaign), and he did the same to the senile, paranoid, babbling old kook McCain. Be interested what others think. Obama wins if his campaign is able sustain the image that Romney is not trustworthy and not likeable. They are going "all in" on the tax records, and the more Mitt refuses full disclosure the more distrust in what he has done in the past. Romney is not that dynamic enough and has shown enough inconsistency in his position that the character assault will work. The more I talk to my young bretheren, the more people are disinterested in voting for the two established political parties. I hope that sentiment continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Obama wins if his campaign is able sustain the image that Romney is not trustworthy and not likeable. They are going "all in" on the tax records, and the more Mitt refuses full disclosure the more distrust in what he has done in the past. Romney is not that dynamic enough and has shown enough inconsistency in his position that the character assault will work. The more I talk to my young bretheren, the more people are disinterested in voting for the two established political parties. I hope that sentiment continues. Again, Romney is waiting for the debates. The election won't be won 4 months out and with rebuttals to attack ads. During the debates, if Barry is dumb enough to talk about Romeny's tax returns, Romney will say "release your college transcripts and the Fast & Furious documents. What have you got to hide, Mr. President?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Again, Romney is waiting for the debates. The election won't be won 4 months out and with rebuttals to attack ads. During the debates, if Barry is dumb enough to talk about Romeny's tax returns, Romney will say "release your college transcripts and the Fast & Furious documents. What have you got to hide, Mr. President?" I agree that Romney is waiting for the debates but disagree about Romney pushing for Obama's records The debates are when most undecided voters who aren't really paying attention will get their first real exposure to Romney. Going negative only re-enforces Obama's Perpetual Motion Presidential Campaign's portrayal of Romney as Mr Burns Edited July 17, 2012 by /dev/null Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) ...but as of right now it really seems kind of like the Romney campaign was not ready. I doubt this is true. That's not to say he's not handling it the way other people would like and it would certainly give the impression that he's not ready, but here's the thing: Romney didn't find massive success in business because he goes into something when he's not ready. While business people make mistakes, being unprepared is not a mistake made by the successful. (Yes, I know, successful people didn't get that way because of their own effort or because they were smart. ) My preference is for him to fight more because he looks like he's getting beat up, but I would tend to agree with someone like Brit Hume who suspects Obama is throwing the gun way too early while Romney is "keeping his powder dry." While I'm still warming up to Romney, I would not be surprised if he was letting Obama swing hard and expensively now, kinda like Clubber Lang in Rocky III* At some point you'll probably hear Romney mumble, "Yeah, well I ain't the one breathing heavy." Then...July, August, September, October job numbers...where a loss of jobs in any single month (and you know it's coming) would be the beginning of the end of Obama's mindless, self-absorbed, "you aren't successful on your own" reign of economic horror. *This Rocky III reference in no way fills our Rocky reference quota for the week. Edited July 17, 2012 by LABillzFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I agree that Romney is waiting for the debates but disagree about Romney pushing for Obama's records The debates are when most undecided voters who aren't really paying attention will get their first real exposure to Romney. Going negative only re-enforces Obama's Perpetual Motion Presidential Campaign's portrayal of Romney as Mr Burns Why? The issue is potentially having something to hide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I agree that Romney is waiting for the debates but disagree about Romney pushing for Obama's records He won't "push" for their release, but it should be brought up in response to the continuing drumbeat of the sycophant press for release of moe tax records by Gov. Romney. He doesnt legally have to release anything, so he should respond "I have released the last two years of my tax returns, and I find it hypocritical of the Obama campaign to call for more when they will not release Mr. Obama's records" Short and sweet. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) I doubt this is true. That's not to say he's not handling it the way other people would like and it would certainly give the impression that he's not ready, but here's the thing: Romney didn't find massive success in business because he goes into something when he's not ready. While business people make mistakes, being unprepared is not a mistake made by the successful. (Yes, I know, successful people didn't get that way because of their own effort or because they were smart. ) My preference is for him to fight more because he looks like he's getting beat up, but I would tend to agree with someone like Brit Hume who suspects Obama is throwing the gun way too early while Romney is "keeping his powder dry." While I'm still warming up to Romney, I would not be surprised if he was letting Obama swing hard and expensively now, kinda like Clubber Lang in Rocky III* At some point you'll probably hear Romney mumble, "Yeah, well I ain't the one breathing heavy." Then...July, August, September, October job numbers...where a loss of jobs in any single month (and you know it's coming) would be the beginning of the end of Obama's mindless, self-absorbed, "you aren't successful on your own" reign of economic horror. *This Rocky III reference in no way fills our Rocky reference quota for the week. I think Obama and Co. are trying to bait Romney into making a mistake like asking for Obama's college transcripts which in turn the Obama campaign and MSM would use to paint him as racist. Like, "Oooooh, so you don't think that Obama is smart. Why is that Mr. Romney? You don't think that black people are very smart, do you?" Romney needs to take the slings and arrows, dispute the claims in a respectful and dignified manner, then go ahead and make the bold pick of Chris Christie as his attack dog attorney/VP partner. I really think that Romney needs both "protection" and a "pulse". Christie would be able to hammer the left in a VERY effective manner. The Obama campaign/MSM are going to lie, cheat and steal to make Romney look like Darth Vader. For instance, when asked about the accusation of Romney being a possible felon, Chrisitie would pull out a great one liner like, "These accusations are silly. I can go to my neighborhood chuck e cheese and find a five year old with a longer rap sheet than Governor Romney." Edited July 17, 2012 by 1billsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 He won't "push" for their release, but it should be brought up in response to the continuing drumbeat of the sycophant press for release of moe tax records by Gov. Romney. He doesnt legally have to release anything, so he should respond "I have released the last two years of my tax returns, and I find it hypocritical of the Obama campaign to call for more when they will not release Mr. Obama's records" Short and sweet. That's what I meant. It would be a rhetorical question and one that would (should) end the questions about his tax returns. I think Obama and Co. are trying to bait Romney into making a mistake like asking for Obama's college transcripts which in turn the Obama campaign and MSM would use to paint him as racist. Like, "Oooooh, so you don't think that Obama is smart. Why is that Mr. Romney? You don't think that black people are very smart, do you?" Romney needs to take the slings and arrows, dispute the claims in a respectful and dignified manner, then go ahead and make the bold pick of Chris Christie as his attack dog attorney/VP partner. I really think that Romney needs both "protection" and a "pulse". Christie would be able to hammer the left in a VERY effective manner. The Obama campaign/MSM are going to lie, cheat and steal to make Romney look like Darth Vader. For instance, when asked about the accusation of Romney being a possible felon, Chrisitie would pull out a great one liner like, "These accusations are silly. I can go to my neighborhood chuck e cheese and find a five year old with a longer rap sheet than Governor Romney." So asking for college transcripts he had sealed is equal to racism? Yeah, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 That's what I meant. It would be a rhetorical question and one that would (should) end the questions about his tax returns. So asking for college transcripts he had sealed is equal to racism? Yeah, no. Pretty much anything is racism to the liberals these days, so asking for his college records would provide for them a fairly easy way to connect the phony "look, he's a racist" dots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Pretty much anything is racism to the liberals these days, so asking for his college records would provide for them a fairly easy way to connect the phony "look, he's a racist" dots. They can scream racism all they want in this case. It would look as silly as it usually does. Even moreso if Herman Cain released his transcripts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) He won't "push" for their release, but it should be brought up in response to the continuing drumbeat of the sycophant press for release of moe tax records by Gov. Romney. He doesnt legally have to release anything, so he should respond "I have released the last two years of my tax returns, and I find it hypocritical of the Obama campaign to call for more when they will not release Mr. Obama's records" Short and sweet. . He can say all that, and it is within his right to say that..but it only makes it look more like he is hiding something...and I think, given the crap that you post about the Obama campaign, that you would be fine with this response. John Stewart had a great line on the Daily Show, yesterday, about Mitt releasing a second year of his tax returns...the second year that he was running a campaign, so they will be expected to divulge nothing: "Just the two years when you knew you were running for president," Stewart said. "Nobody gives a [bleep] about those two years. It would be like if the Keith Richards autobiography was called 'My Years as a Movie Pirate.'" Edited July 18, 2012 by Buftex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted July 18, 2012 Author Share Posted July 18, 2012 Unless he did something illegal (which would be revealed by other means) I don't give a crap what he did with his taxes. Obama is hoping to make an issue out of him using off shore accounts or tax loopholes to pay lower tax rates than middle income wage earners. So what? I bet close to 100% of people in his income category did on advice of accountants and financial advisors. I wouldnt want someone so financially iiresponsible to have paid millions extra every year in taxes. But BO will use it to reinforce the case MR will pursue a regressive tax code. Its a good campaign tactic in this environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 He can say all that, and it is within his right to say that..but it only makes it look more like he is hiding something...and I think, given the crap that you post about the Obama campaign, that you would be fine with this response. John Stewart had a great line on the Daily Show, yesterday, about Mitt releasing a second year of his tax returns...the second year that he was running a campaign, so they will be expected to divulge nothing: "Just the two years when you knew you were running for president," Stewart said. "Nobody gives a [bleep] about those two years. It would be like if the Keith Richards autobiography was called 'My Years as a Movie Pirate.'" John Stewart is full of schit. Romney ran for the senate. He ran for governor. He ran for president 4 years ago. I'm surprised you are quoting him when it is so obvious he is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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