Hasselbeck vs Hoge on the Saints

[Beerball]

Agree on all accounts. Hback was trying to steer his arguement away from the main questions regarding Vilma and to the process of the NFLPA and the league. The players signed the CBA stating Goodell was the judge and jury, end of story. You cannot argue any further. You know what you signed, deal with it for 9 more years. The players make the league go round and get paid handsomely to do so, Hoge mad a great point regarding how quick they are to complain about being in pads but wouldn't stick their necks out for their "fellow players" nean while the first guy to take a dirty shot and gets injured will point to the bounty scandle and sue the league eventually. That is why they had to come down so hard.

Probably already stated here somewhere & this isn't directed at you, but the Vilma suspension was in effect more severe than the one SP received. Payton can coach and coach and coach, 20, 30 or more years once you add up the entirety of his career. Vilma has how many as a player? Maybe 10, 12-13 at the outside. He's lost a bigger piece of his career than his boss and that doesn't sit right with me.

[NoSaint]

Skip Bayless-esque for sure. Spout off just to spout off. Hoge has many valid points and he did get concussed many times. He just rubs me the wrong way for some reason. Ill stay in the camp that both had good points cut the suspensions in half and lets move on. Thank god this didn't happen to Buff players this site might blow up.

 

Honestly that's likely where I fall. I just was bugged by the people that thought he was an authority of any variety, on anything.

[Mr. WEO]

The players did not sign away due process pertaining to work related claims. That is the foundation of the taft-hartley act that governs collective bargaining. You can't sign it away. The players, may be wrong, but it is up to the finder of fact to present a case and the opportunity for redress before passing judgement. The police investigate all the time, then they indict, then prosecutors try, and Judges and or juries adjudicate. In collective bargaining you can streamline process but not subvert. Goodell is a lawyer he knows this. His ego allows him to ignore it.

 

 

 

no just a copper kettle.

if you are a lawyer, you would realize that Goodell, a lawyer, and all the other lawyers who work for him probably already considered any exposure that you suggest above and deemed it insignificant.

 

You would also recall that all the lawyers in the NFLPA agreed to this process and haven't successfully challenged it in the past. D. Smith is still learning the care of the colostomy Goodell gave him last spring. What's he going to say--"hey, you can't do that"?

 

The simple conclusion here is that the case against these guys is so well documented and so overwhelming that the NFL is very comfortable putting the hammer down on them.

 

They can "present their case" on Monday at their appeal. They will then be informed of what evidence has been amassed against them. Since they are all denying it, there is absolutely no chance for a successful appeal.

[Mr. WEO]

Turns out Vilma requested a meeting with Goodell before the punishment was announced. But Then he backed out of his request......on the advice of his lawyer.

 

Oops.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Say what you will about Hoge and the way he dresses, etc.

 

I just wanted to point this out again and state that the ignoring of concussions was a very common thing not so long ago (Hoge played from 1987-1994). I often state that there are many classes of players with regard to the concussion issue.

 

"During a game against the Chiefs in Kansas City, Hoge received a concussion and, five days later, the team doctor approved him to resume playing during a telephone call without examining him to determine if he had recovered; he was still suffering post-concussion symptoms.

 

Hoge sustained another concussion several weeks later, and had to be resuscitated after he stopped breathing. He spent 48 hours in the intensive-care unit and was forced to retire due to brain injury. Hoge had to learn to read again and experienced memory loss, confusion and headaches. He later sued the Bears team doctor and won a $1.55 million judgment."

[BUFFALOTONE]

The players did not sign away due process pertaining to work related claims. That is the foundation of the taft-hartley act that governs collective bargaining. You can't sign it away. The players, may be wrong, but it is up to the finder of fact to present a case and the opportunity for redress before passing judgement. The police investigate all the time, then they indict, then prosecutors try, and Judges and or juries adjudicate. In collective bargaining you can streamline process but not subvert. Goodell is a lawyer he knows this. His ego allows him to ignore it.

 

 

 

no just a copper kettle.

Vilma actions were categorized under conduct unbecoming that in turn leaves the sole power of judge and jury up to the commissioner and that was agreed upon by Mo Smith and the NFLPA. Had it been any other type of incident Art Shell and Ted Cottrell would have been included as mediators to discuss the punishment for infractions committed. That being said the league makes way too much money and hasty show that they are protecting the players and that they are no turning a blind eye or softening on these issues which could lead to permanent brain or career ending injuries. It was a just punishment and has been under review for years.

[Awwufelloff]

Wow, I always thought Hoge was out there. Now I understand why.

 

Wow...He almost died because of the concussions received in the NFL...People who have not played in the NFL should not be NFL analyst IMO...There opinions mean nothing really.

[reddogblitz]

I thought it was funny when that football player said if you're in the Army , and a general gives you an order you have to do it no matter what. In the Army (or Marines or Navy or Air Force or Coast Guard) if a general gives you an unlawful order you are not to follow it. In fact, you can be convicted of a crime for following it. Stick to football kid and leave the armed forces to the real men (and women).

 

Wasn't "just following orders" the defense of the German guards at Nuremberg? Sorry, that argument doesn't fly here either.

 

I hope Goodell sticks to his guns on this one.

 

Put me on Hoge's side.

Edited May 4, 2012 by reddogblitz

[CodeMonkey]

Hasselbeck is right. This is bigger than the saints bounty deal. There are alot of branches to this.

I doubt the "branches" will be investigated much.

In my opinion neither the NFL or King Roger really want to know how pervasive this was/is.

They just want it to be over and go away.

[biglukes]

I thought it was funny when that football player said if you're in the Army , and a general gives you an order you have to do it no matter what. In the Army (or Marines or Navy or Air Force or Coast Guard) if a general gives you an unlawful order you are not to follow it. In fact, you can be convicted of a crime for following it. Stick to football kid and leave the armed forces to the real men (and women).

 

Wasn't "just following orders" the defense of the German guards at Nuremberg? Sorry, that argument doesn't fly here either.

 

I hope Goodell sticks to his guns on this one.

 

Put me on Hoge's side.

Wait a minute, did you just post the premise of "A Few Good Men"?

[NoSaint]

Obviously I hear one side of the arguments a lot louder in the news here (and I get that) but some interesting arguments starting to bubble from the nflpa - including the fact that the new CBA might not allow for any punishment of players for pre 2011 offenses. Leaving Hargrove and fujita totally untouchable if found true, and the others a big question mark (other than emails from a man in jail promising money he couldn't give at the time, and the "I've got the first one" comment on the 9ers speech - there's really not evidence that's surfaced outside 2009). Obviously anyone hates the "yea I did it but you can't do anything" argument - just noting the dynamic.... Unless I guess maybe they suspend them for not cooperating in the 2011 investigation initially, and not for anything in 2009?

 

Further, it the nflpa submitted the Hargrove statement - youd think they'd be pretty confident About what was in it- ie not the offenses that players are denying. That leaves Gregg and unnamed sources.

 

Not to mention the conduct vs on field distinction being debated. And whether goodell will get the appeal.

 

And the investigator that was called out in federal court for screwing will smith in star caps being the one to nail him again here. You'd think the nfl would keep him far away for appearances sake. Rumblings that the players turned down a meeting with the nfl a few weeks ago because it was actually a meeting with him. Honestly I was a bit surprised to hear the nfl still kept the people tied to the star caps disaster around.

 

If nothing else, it's an interesting process playing out. Has potential to set a ton of precedent in how the nfl handles things.

 

 

Heck even Shapiro from the Miami mess coming back up saying that he paid vilma bounties in college. Quite the web coming out.

Edited May 5, 2012 by NoSaint

[purple haze]

Thought I was okay with the suspensions until I heard Hasslebecks take. Merrill Hoge seems a lil ridiculous to me here. For a guy that played 1 year or so he seems to have too much Skip Bayless in him....Check this out let me know what you think.

 

He played much longer than one year and he was forced to retire because of concussions. He was actually a very good running back. ran and caught the ball well.

[justnzane]

I think Goodell really is sticking it to the Saints to a much higher degree than necessary. Payton's and William's suspensions, I am fine with, but I believe everyone elses should be halved. The fact that the Saints are being saddled with a harder punishment than the Pats* for Spygate doesn't sit right with me as much as Goodell putting harder penalties on the players than the coaches.

 

This is isn't the same as the soldiers of the SS killing Jews at Nuremburg so i think the soldiers following orders is appropriate to state in this secenario. Thus, the players should receive as harsh of penalties for taking part in a system that was more widespread around the league than what Goodell wants you to believe.

[MichFan]

I completely agree with Hoge on this one. Hasslebeck looked like an over emotional whiner and had every counter argument quickly refuted. I hate the characterization of unions that Hasselbeck espouses -- reactive and working counter to management. It is juvenile. Most American unions are well beyond this way of thinking, unions that still operate this way are dragging their companies down. The NFLPA needs to be very careful about defending these players given the storm clouds that are gathering concerning litigation by former players.

[Mr. WEO]

I think Goodell really is sticking it to the Saints to a much higher degree than necessary. Payton's and William's suspensions, I am fine with, but I believe everyone elses should be halved. The fact that the Saints are being saddled with a harder punishment than the Pats* for Spygate doesn't sit right with me as much as Goodell putting harder penalties on the players than the coaches.

 

This is isn't the same as the soldiers of the SS killing Jews at Nuremburg so i think the soldiers following orders is appropriate to state in this secenario. Thus, the players should receive as harsh of penalties for taking part in a system that was more widespread around the league than what Goodell wants you to believe.

"SS killing Jews at Nuremburg"??