Idle speculation from ESPN

[3rdand12]

BPA, i am also, as you said thoughtfully enough, cautiously optimistic.

May i say this as my pinion? i think Wanny just stayed quiet last year and observed. i believe honestly he was hired for that.

After the season was over he presented his report. Thats why we have Mario and Anderson now. and Morrison too and maybe Scott to a degree. Should be fun to see what this years defense does in whole. I think Wanny is all in with us over a hand shake with Chan and Buddy. it might be a two year plan or more, but we gave him the leash lets let him pull it and see what is what this year. Very excited and cautiously optimistic? hmm... That's me!

[Doc]

I don't see why people need to believe that Wanny took over the defense last year. It has never been reported by anyone that that happened. And why wouldn't Chan just fire Edwards and promote Wanny?

[NoSaint]

But thats for another, higher position in teh same league. I don't know if the NFL has a rule (they do have the rule that you can't block a coach from taking higher position with another NFL team without your permission)that would keep a team from blocking a coach from taking a position in the college ranks.

 

Not sure if it's a point of note (ie not sure how much is true): I think it's they can't interview while under contract. In fact they can't even be contacted unless its for a vertical move unless granted permission. If they resign I think they can do what they want but would either be rolling the dice assuming they would be hired for the lateral move, or face tampering if it was proven they contacted before the resignation.

 

The short of it being I believe it's an nfl rule for teams not a contracted policy for coaches. Hence for instance the nfl penalizes the redskins for tampering with a haynesworth but the titans don't sue haynesworth for violating his contract (as a recent example of nfl tampering and contract procedure.

 

Bobby April was Assistant Head Coach when he was there the last couple years. Do you hold him responsible at all for the offense or defense? I don't. Often times, the title of Assistant Head Coach is just that, a title, and it is used to make the person with a great resume, like Wanny, look to the world as more important. It is just as likely an agent thing as a Wanny thing.

 

Doesn't it also have some implication about eligibility for outside interviews?

Edited April 11, 2012 by NoSaint

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Doesn't it also have some implication about eligibility for outside interviews?

I'm not sure about that either way. I do think, however, that an Assistant Head Coach position is NOT higher than an offensive or defensive coordinator position, and has no official hierarchy cache. I doubt that title affects lateral or moves up the chain. I don't know for sure though. Like for example, last year when Wanny was a LB coach and Assistant Head Coach, I would bet that a team could have asked to interview him for their DC position without getting the Bills permission because it would have been considered a move up from LB coach, and not lateral or a move down from AHC.

[NoSaint]

I'm not sure about that either way. I do think, however, that an Assistant Head Coach position is NOT higher than an offensive or defensive coordinator position, and has no official hierarchy cache. I doubt that title affects lateral or moves up the chain. I don't know for sure though. Like for example, last year when Wanny was a LB coach and Assistant Head Coach, I would bet that a team could have asked to interview him for their DC position without getting the Bills permission because it would have been considered a move up from LB coach, and not lateral or a move down from AHC.

 

Not sure about wanny specifically, but I believe it holds some cache. If I remember correctly we promoted April to ST/asst head so that he couldnt be interviewed for anything short of head coach, as it would be the only vertical move available. When it comes to position coaches instead of coordinators, I'm not sure.

[Doc]

A coach who is given the title of assistant head coach can only be hired away for a head coaching position unless the original team gives permission for him to leave.

[NoSaint]

A coach who is given the title of assistant head coach can only be hired away for a head coaching position unless the original team gives permission for him to leave.

That's what I thought but I wasnt sure about position vs coordinators. I was under the impression this is true though.

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/25/sports/football/stormy-honeymoons-for-two-new-nfl-coaches.html

 

Schiano, the head coach at Rutgers from 2001 through 2011, was hired by the Buccaneers on Jan. 26, late in the N.F.L. hiring cycle. He was denied permission by other teams to interview several coaches for the Buccaneers’ vacant coordinator positions.

 

* * *

 

Schiano said Thursday that he was surprised to be denied access to his top coaching candidates. When he left the N.F.L. 13 years ago, “it was kind of an unspoken rule that if you had advancement, you could move from club to club,” he said. “But I also understand that abuse leads to restrictions.”

 

Schiano noted that teams had kept their top assistants from interviewing elsewhere by granting them “half-baked titles,” an odd choice of words for someone who just hired a special assistant himself.

 

I found a link to an undated copy of the NFL's anti-tampering policy - - can't vouch for its accuracy, but FWIW:

 

http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/2009%20NFL%20Anti-Tampering%20Policy.pdf

 

Under Contract After Season. If an assistant coach’s playing season,

including postseason if applicable (excluding Pro Bowl), is over and he is

under contract to his club for the succeeding season or seasons, one of the

provisions below—“Head-Coaching Opportunity” or “Lateral Move”—

whichever is applicable, must be observed:

 

1. Two Tiers of Coaching Staffs. For purposes of this Anti-Tampering Policy,

each coaching staff is divided into two tiers: (1) head coach, and (2) all assistant

coaches.

 

Although each individual club is permitted to use whatever structure and titles it

desires for its coaching staff, the two tiers described here will be adhered to for

administration of this Policy.

2. Head-Coaching Opportunity. If a club is interested in discussing its head

coaching position with an assistant coach whose playing season (excluding Pro

Bowl) is over, and who is contractually obligated to another club, the assistant

coach’s employer club must permit the coach the opportunity to discuss, and

possibly accept, such employment through March 1 of any year. After March 1,

the employer club is under no obligation to grant such permission, but it may be

voluntarily granted at the employer club’s discretion during the off-season.

 

* * *

 

3. Lateral Move. If a club is interested in discussing an assistant coaching

position with an assistant coach who is contractually obligated to another

club at any time prior to the opening of the employer club’s training

camp, it will be considered a lateral move, and the employer club is under

no obligation to grant the coach the opportunity to discuss the position

with the interested club. At the discretion of the employer club, however,

such permission may be voluntarily granted.

 

Schiano's comments about teams using "half-baked titles" seems to indicate that teams are at least claiming that an "assistant head coach" falls under the "head coach tier." As I read it, other teams could prevent Schiano from interviewing their current assistant coaches and coordinators (even without "half-baked titles") for the Buc's vacant coordinator positions because the NFL anti-tampering policy divides all coaches into only 2 categories - - (1) a head coach tier, and (2) everybody else. So by definition any assistant position coach, offensive or defensive coordinator, or even grand imperial pubah of special teams is interviewing for a lateral move (for purposes of the anti-tampering policy) if he interviews for a vacant coordinator position.

 

Anybody read it differently?

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

Found another consistent source - - apparently the rule used to be that an assistant coach could always interview for a coordinator job because it was considered a promotion, but that is no longer the rule:

 

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/bucs/content/nfl-teams-will-continue-be-permitted-block-assistants-under-contract

 

Current rules allow teams to forbid their assistant coaches to interview for other jobs, unless that job is for a head coach position. The rules used to allow coaches to interview if the new job was considered a promotion, but McKay said too many teams took advantage.

 

“There was so much manipulation going on with assistants and designating new titles,” McKay said. “If a coach decided to sign a multi-year agreement, he understands when he signs that multi-year agreement that he may not be able to move unless the team grants him permission.”

Edited April 12, 2012 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Didn't the last Arkansas coach leave the NFL less than a year after signing a long term contract?

 

Of course you can leave for a college school. You can do anything you want.

 

Regards,

Bobby Petrino

Bobby Petrino resigned from the Falcons. That is true.

 

What you're not pointing out is that the Falcons and owner Blank accepted his resignation as well they should have.

 

Thirteen weeks into his first season in Atlanta, sporting a 3-10 record and on the verge of a player revolt, yes, Blank accepted his resignation.

 

I was talking about a scenario where the Bills would want to keep Wanny… very different from the Petrino situation.

 

Apples and oranges, IMO.

 

On the other hand, some of the recent links in this topic (thanks ICSWID) suggest an assistant can leave for a head coaching job. FWIW, none of the links seems to distinguish between an NFL head coaching job and a college one.

 

 

 

And then there's this:

 

New York Jets

Soon after Super Bowl XXXI, Belichick (and most of the Patriots assistant coaches) migrated with Parcells to the New York Jets. Belichick served as assistant head coach and defensive coordinator for the Jets from1997 to 1999. When Parcells stepped down as head coach in 1999, he had already arranged with team management to have Belichick succeed him. However, Belichick would be the New York Jets' head coach for only one day. When Belichick was introduced as head coach to the media—the day after his hiring was publicized—he turned it into a surprise-resignation announcement. Before taking the podium, he scrawled a resignation note on a sheet of loose leaf paper that read, in its entirety, "I resign as HC of the NYJ." He then delivered a half-hour speech explaining his resignation to the assembled press corps.^[10]

 

Soon after this bizarre turn of events, he was introduced as the New England Patriots' new head coach; the team had tried to hire him away from Parcells/the Jets in the past. Parcells and the Jets claimed that Belichick was still under contract to the Jets, and demanded compensation from the Patriots. NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue agreed, and the Patriots gave the Jets a first-round draft pick in 2000 in exchange for the right to hire Belichick.^[11]

 

 

Also, when Gruden desired to leave Oakland for Tampa Bay, he was traded for compensation:

 

Tampa Bay Buccaneers

 

After compiling a 40–28 win-loss record (including playoffs) in four seasons with the Raiders, Gruden replaced the firedTony Dungy as head coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 2002, via a high-stakes trade that included Tampa Bay's2002 and 2003 first-round draft picks, 2002 and 2004 second-round draft picks, and $8 million in cash.^[1] The trade took place for a number of reasons, including Davis' desire for a more vertical passing attack rather than Gruden's horizontal pass attack, the fact that Gruden's contract would expire a year after the trade, and Davis' uncertainty over whether Gruden was worth as much money as his next contract was sure to pay him.^{[citation needed]} Gruden signed a five-year contract with the Buccaneers worth $17.5 million.

 

 

 

Anyways, the question in my mind (and it hasn't been resolved to my satisfaction) is what happens when a coach wants to leave his job for another one and his present team, doesn't want him to leave?

 

[NoSaint]

Right sjbf - those are both head coach to head coach and the nfl has rules about that. The nfl rules fall on the teams, not on coaches in the case of tampering. To get out of the contract, the coach can quit and possibly have to pay back some money but simply, they quit. im not sure in an nfl to nfl head coach swap how long they retain the rights to be able to stop someone from going to their next nfl team but i dont think this extends out to anything outside the nfl.

 

The nfl can't place rules on who college teams reach out to. They can't fine colleges, or take picks.

 

Some dollars might change hands due to the contract being ended early but it's not like DW couldn't go to Arkansas (he won't, but....)

Edited April 12, 2012 by NoSaint

[CodeMonkey]

I don't see why people need to believe that Wanny took over the defense last year. It has never been reported by anyone that that happened. And why wouldn't Chan just fire Edwards and promote Wanny?

There is no more reason to think Wanny took over the defense than there is to think that as asst. head coach he had no involvement in it.

Aren't Gailey and Edwards buddies from before the Bills? If so, that might be way Gailey didn't want to can him.

 

A coach who is given the title of assistant head coach can only be hired away for a head coaching position unless the original team gives permission for him to leave.

Or if he had an escape clause in his contract.

[Doc]

There is no more reason to think Wanny took over the defense than there is to think that as asst. head coach he had no involvement in it.

Aren't Gailey and Edwards buddies from before the Bills? If so, that might be way Gailey didn't want to can him.

I can't see that they worked together before. But I don't see why Wanny would have taken over the defense at any point but near the end of the season given it was Edwards' play book, scheme, and the players he'd chosen. And he'd shown a willingness to cut Edwards mid season, so why not Edwards?

Or if he had an escape clause in his contract.

True.

[DefenseWinzChampionshipz]

The question is whether Chixley would let him out of his contract if he wished to leave.

 

Contracts mean absolutely nothing when it comes to coaches or at least the reason why I believe that is because of what happened to us with Kevin Costner... Did Ralph let HIM out of his contract or did he just breach it?

[CodeMonkey]

I can't see that they worked together before. But I don't see why Wanny would have taken over the defense at any point but near the end of the season given it was Edwards' play book, scheme, and the players he'd chosen. And he'd shown a willingness to cut Edwards mid season, so why not Edwards?

I agree with you in that I don't think Wanny took full control of the defense.

But I also think that as assistant HC he almost certainly (or at least should have) had input into it. How much, we will probably never know for sure.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Contracts mean absolutely nothing when it comes to coaches or at least the reason why I believe that is because of what happened to us with Kevin Costner... Did Ralph let HIM out of his contract or did he just breach it?

Good point.

[Buftex]

I have not read this thread in it's entirety, so forgive me if this has been said. First, I was under the impression that Wannestedt wanted back in the NFL, not college. Also, whatever the contract may or may not say, I seriously doubt the Bills would deny Wanny a chance to take a head coaching job anywhere, if he wanted it. I am not rooting for that to happen, just sayin'

[eball]

With respect to Arkansas, I read this morning that Petrino "texted" his apology to the AD several days before he was fired. Nothing says sincerity like a text message.

 

"Jeff, sry abt the whore and wreck. just smh over it. we r still good rght?"

[apuszczalowski]

The question is weither the Bills have to grant permission for one of their coaches to interview for a college job or not. If the other team was an NFL team, then there are rules that permission is not needed if the move is a vertical move (co-ordinator to HC, Asst HC to HC, etc). I don't think the Bills can deny anyone in college from speaking to their coaches, but I think they can hold the coach to their contract if they decided they wanted to leave while still under contract. Wanny would have to quit/resign to take the college position and possibly face some financial penalties that could be in the contract for not fullfilling it (have to pay back some of it), where as if it was a HC job in the NFL he would not face any penalties. Most of the time teams will let coaches leave if they are going to a position higher then what they currently hold and its a better situation for them.

 

So it all comes down to if Wanny feels being a College HC again is better then staying in the NFL as a D-coordinator and Asst. HC. Him leaving after just starting the position in Buffalo would look like a dick move to the fans here, and possibly might look bad on him in the future for another NFL position if a team feels he may not be trustable in staying long term

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Well, this story broke 4 days ago.

 

While I think the fact that Wanny said he was happy to no longer be a college head coach and was looking forward to working in the NFL again (when the Bills hired him) and the fact of his personal friendship with Gailey is comforting….

 

I'm a bit disturbed that there hasn't been any statement by the team or Wanny disavowing his interest in the Arkansas job.