Sisyphean Bills Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 You don't have to be a genius to figure out that smart coaches play to players' strengths and not weaknesses. When you have less talent and coach it down the results are very predictable. A good system is a system that maximizes the talents of players on hand. The idea of having Kelsay or Carrington playing in open space as LBs is an absurdity. Truth. Goes hand in hand with the comments that the better DCs simplify things and let the players play. Some coaches coach from their play book; other coaches look at their players and design the schemes to the strength of the talent and let them play that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Even if you blame nix - the only chance we missed was maybe Brooks reed vs Aaron Williams? We never had the shot at the talent you'd expect This. There was no way to fix EVERYTHING in a matter of 2 years. We've just started their 3rd offseason, and already looking much better. Our needs are much more focused and specific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertpaul49 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I think the biggest reason it didn't work and the core reason that the Bills have struggled for the last ten years is that it takes time to accumulate the talent to play the different schemes. The Patriots and Steelers developed their teams over time and have had a lot of veteran players. The Bills have been in the habit of cleaning house. It is also helpful when a team has a scheme that other teams do not use since there will be less competition for players. The Patriots had done a good job of finding players that fit their scheme without having to break the bank. Remember when the Patriots would sign people at the end of free agency for relatively small contracts? Of, course, they used three very high draft picks on defensive linemen, which was the foundation of the defense. As far as 3-4 vs 4-3, I remember a lot of posters saying they preferred the 3-4 and happy Gailey made the change after Dick Juron. Now granted, Meatball has only gotten better and finding outside linebackers has been a problem. I'm happy since the Bills are going in the right direction. I could not stand all the years where the only positive thing we could say was addition by subtraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Teams already figured out the 34 btitzing schemes and we just didn't have good enough guys to run it. "I really believe the game has changed some," he said. "Ten years ago, eight years ago, when all the fire zones and blitzes became a big, big factor, you were able to scheme and trick guys and pick up a lot of sacks because offenses weren't ready to handle it. Now the good offenses are." "You've got to attack a protection and make 'em block you one on one," Wannstedt said. "If you have good enough players, better players, and they win one on one, you get sacks and pressure. If your players aren't good enough, you can run the same blitzes as other teams, but you aren't going to get the pressures." Dave Wannstedt http://www.buffalone...e?twobillsdrive the Bills did not run many complicated zone blitz packages - that stuff was way beyond our coaching capability they basically lined up 3 DL on 5 OL and watched them get destroyed because they had no LB help. when switching to a 3-4 it always helps to have a coach that has done it before and actually is skilled at running teh intriciies of the zone blitz with out itu - you should get killed up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Truth. Goes hand in hand with the comments that the better DCs simplify things and let the players play. Some coaches coach from their play book; othher coaches look at their players and design the schemes to the strength of the talent and let them play that way. The Bills were hit with the double whammy: the lack of talent and the lack of good coaching. The former DC received a lot of harsh criticism, some of it justified and some not. The bottom line is that he didn't have much talent to work with. It seems that some coaches work hard to prove how smart they are (Gregg Williams & Ryan brothers) instead of, as you noted, simply work to put the players in the best situation to succeed. Sometimes when one over thinks a situation you end up outsmarting oneself. Edited March 18, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Even if you blame nix - the only chance we missed was maybe Brooks reed vs Aaron Williams? We never had the shot at the talent you'd expect Well I'd have to rewind to the 2010 draft and see who was available in the 2nd and 3rd rounds when we drafted Troup and Carrington… both of whom I still hold out hope for. Also I would have drafted Sheard before Brooks Reed last year but your point is the same. I'm in the group of people who criticize both the talent level and the decision to move to a 3-4… though I believe it's more about the talent. However the Bills have stated several times that they'll draft the best players possible and devise a scheme around them and that's ultimately what everyone should want them to do. I sure hope they don't pass up a better player (for instance an OLB) just because he now doesn't fit a 4-3 scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 The coach last year was problem #2 IHMO. Injuries (on both sides of the ball because the D was on the field so much more)and inexperienced back ups #1, one cool thing it turns out the last 2 seasons a lot of guys got to play and get some experience and time to gel. Obviously BN gets a bit of the blame as we didn't get a OLB that could rush but I guess that took time and opportunity (betting on Merriman was a mistake). Wanny has a good resume and should help and the talent is almost there. Every team has holes to fill and weaknesses. This is a youngish team so that will help, we do have time(although THIS is supposed to be THE year). We are not done yet, I actually think the D will still be a weakness for a while and it maybe next year before it is top 10. But top 15 is well within reach if we get some sustained health. Schemes and personnel take time to adjust to change. The last 2 years are a testament to that. I actually think it is more important to have a knock out offense first and ours should improve this year too. The injury thing is a big deal. We are not GB of a couple years ago yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 The Bills were hit with the double whammy: the lack of talent and the lack of good coaching. The former DC received a lot of harsh criticism, some of it justified and some not. The bottom line is that he didn't have much talent to work with. It seems that some coaches work hard to prove how smart they are (Gregg Williams & Ryan brothers) instead of, as you noted, simply work to put the players in the best situation to succeed. Sometimes when one over thinks a situation you end up outsmarting oneself. I don't know. Rex Ryan was able to quickly identify that Aaron Maybin had a single skill -- rushing the passer from the outside -- and that skill would be maximized in a scheme that tried to overload the zone from which he was rushing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cocktosten Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I know there is a Buddy love-fest going on here but how is he not entering into this conversation? Last time I checked he's in charge of personnel. He thought the Bills would be okay going into the season at OLB with a chronically injured has been and Chris freeking Kelsay. His backup plan? Two 6th round, D1AA players (Batten/Moats) and an undrafted practice roster player (Coleman)? Buddy's gotta be held accountable for this. Edwards hands were tied. Who else was he going to throw in there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I know there is a Buddy love-fest going on here but how is he not entering into this conversation? Last time I checked he's in charge of personnel. He thought the Bills would be okay going into the season at OLB with a chronically injured has been and Chris freeking Kelsay. His backup plan? Two 6th round, D1AA players (Batten/Moats) and an undrafted practice roster player (Coleman)? Buddy's gotta be held accountable for this. Edwards hands were tied. Who else was he going to throw in there? Again, care to share the other options? I don't know. Rex Ryan was able to quickly identify that Aaron Maybin had a single skill -- rushing the passer from the outside -- and that skill would be maximized in a scheme that tried to overload the zone from which he was rushing. He also had a better secondary allowing for Aaron to get there in 8-9 seconds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Angel Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 If you take bad linebackers and put them at defensive and take and average DTs and DEs and put them in at linebacker..you are asking to suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Spencer Johnson, Danny Batten, Chris Kelsay, Arhtur Moats and Shawn Merriman playing OLB were the reason that it didn't work. Nothing more, nothing less. Dont forget 305 pound Alex Carrington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cocktosten Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Again, care to share the other options? There were a ton of guys in the 2011 draft that would've fit nicely. Reed, Houston and Ayers off the top of my head. The Pats picked up Carter and Anderson who had 20 sacks combined. Manny Lawson was sitting out there forever. Antwan Barnes and Fujita as well. I'm not saying that these guys would've been great but they would've been way better than anything that was out there in 2011. Edited March 18, 2012 by John Cocktosten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 it's amazing how many people working at McDonald's have such belief in their ability to run an NFL franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 IMO it didn't work because of three things, and all three were big things that alone could have thwarted the attempt. In no order of importance... 1] Chan hired the wrong DC in George Edwards who lacked the experience, pedigree and smarts for the job. 2] The cornerstones in the middle were both hurt, Kyle Williams and Terrell Troup drafted #2 3] They simply didn't have the skill or the resources to make it work in 1-2 years, and if we stayed with the 4-3 we would have had the exact same problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cocktosten Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 it's amazing how many people working at McDonald's have such belief in their ability to run an NFL franchise. What do you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 What do you do? Burger King. There were a ton of guys in the 2011 draft that would've fit nicely. Reed, Houston and Ayers off the top of my head. The Pats picked up Carter and Anderson who had 20 sacks combined. Manny Lawson was sitting out there forever. Antwan Barnes and Fujita as well. I'm not saying that these guys would've been great but they would've been way better than anything that was out there in 2011. The Patriots defense sucked and was one of the worst in the history of the league. The reason, however, and the reason Carter and Anderson put up so many sacks, was because the Pats offense was one the of best in the history of the league, teams playing against them were often playing from behind or having to pass on most every play to keep up in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cocktosten Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Burger King. The Patriots defense sucked and was one of the worst in the history of the league. The reason, however, and the reason Carter and Anderson put up so many sacks, was because the Pats offense was one the of best in the history of the league, teams playing against them were often playing from behind or having to pass on most every play to keep up in the game. I hate BK. Carter's 10 sacks came in his first 13 games. I guess the Bills couldn't have used 20 sacks when they got 29 all year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I hate BK. Carter's 10 sacks came in his first 13 games. I guess the Bills couldn't have used 20 sacks when they got 29 all year. Except I sincerely doubt that Carter and Anderson would have had 10 sacks combined playing on the Bills. Teams are looking at both of them as average free agent players even after those seasons. And while it's easy to say it's because they are getting old, that didnt stop Abraham from getting serious money. You don't really think that Carter and Anderson, playing on the Bills, would have had 8-10 sacks each, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirate Angel Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Burger King. The Patriots defense sucked and was one of the worst in the history of the league. The reason, however, and the reason Carter and Anderson put up so many sacks, was because the Pats offense was one the of best in the history of the league, teams playing against them were often playing from behind or having to pass on most every play to keep up in the game. Yup, when you play the Pats your playing Tom Brady....the rest of the team is fairly pedestrian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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