Confirmation why defense has been so bad

[GaryPinC]

Certainly a lack of talent is another reason but OBD indirectly confirms:

 

http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2012/01/30/wannstedts-defense-keeps-it-simple/

 

I do believe Perry Fewell had the same problem when he was here (though lack of talent was magnified). I think the Giants were ready to run him out of town until he simplified things:

 

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2011/12/back_to_the_basics_giants_defe.html

 

Hopefully Wannstedt's leadership will give us a huge turnaround on defense next year.

[Danny]

Certainly a lack of talent is another reason but OBD indirectly confirms:

 

http://blogs.buffalobills.com/2012/01/30/wannstedts-defense-keeps-it-simple/

 

I do believe Perry Fewell had the same problem when he was here (though lack of talent was magnified). I think the Giants were ready to run him out of town until he simplified things:

 

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2011/12/back_to_the_basics_giants_defe.html

 

Hopefully Wannstedt's leadership will give us a huge turnaround on defense next year.

 

I do not doubt there is something to be said for simplifying a defense. But against the elite teams you better have a few wrinkles up your sleeve as well. Especially when it comes to your blitz packages. Otherwise you will be fine against some teams but the best ones will eat you up.

 

My mindframe has always been the better the players you have the more you can complicate things. I would have been happier if I heard Nix say that he will bring players in who can play in an advanced system rather that talk about how he brought in a guy who will simplify things for the players he has.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Danny

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I do not doubt there is something to be said for simplifying a defense. But against the elite teams you better have a few wrinkles up your sleeve as well. Especially when it comes to your blitz packages. Otherwise you will be fine against some teams but the best ones will eat you up.

 

My mindframe has always been the better the players you have the more you can complicate things. I would have been happier if I heard Nix say that he will bring players in who can play in an advanced system rather that talk about how he brought in a guy who will simplify things for the players he has.

Gotta disagree, When things are so complicated no one plays well getting back to basics will do wonders for this team and you can bet that many of our players will become great when they don't a million things to think about. Also I'm quite sure they can get creative when need be which will be to our advantage as well in that instead of being reactive will be able to attack which is again a simple plan.

[Danny]

Gotta disagree, When things are so complicated no one plays well getting back to basics will do wonders for this team and you can bet that many of our players will become great when they don't a million things to think about. Also I'm quite sure they can get creative when need be which will be to our advantage as well in that instead of being reactive will be able to attack which is again a simple plan.

 

Just so I'm clear, which part of what I posted do you disagree with?

 

Is it when I said a basic defense will get burned by the more elite teams (offenses)?

[maddenboy]

I do not doubt there is something to be said for simplifying a defense. But against the elite teams you better have a few wrinkles up your sleeve as well. Especially when it comes to your blitz packages. Otherwise you will be fine against some teams but the best ones will eat you up.

 

My mindframe has always been the better Smarter the players you have the more you can complicate things. I would have been happier if I heard Nix say that he will bring players in who can play in an advanced system rather that talk about how he brought in a guy who will simplify things for the players he has.

I also gotta disagree. Fixed your post.

 

Yes, with smarter players you can complicate things. But you gotta let players play. This is why schools like Notre Dame and Duke and (up until 2 years ago) Stanford never win. Its hard to find elite athletes who are also really smart. Especially on defense. Let 'em play. Find ball, kill ball. Simple.

[Meathead]

the biggest boost to this defense will come from not having that suck arse george edwards calling the shots

[Wayne Cubed]

I do not doubt there is something to be said for simplifying a defense. But against the elite teams you better have a few wrinkles up your sleeve as well. Especially when it comes to your blitz packages. Otherwise you will be fine against some teams but the best ones will eat you up.

 

My mindframe has always been the better the players you have the more you can complicate things. I would have been happier if I heard Nix say that he will bring players in who can play in an advanced system rather that talk about how he brought in a guy who will simplify things for the players he has.

 

I also have to disagree. The Bills scheme was so complicated this year that it didn't allow players, who are very naturally gifted, to excel at their positions. Take for example Sheppard, who by all accounts has a lot of football smarts and has great sideline to sideline abilities. He found himself out of position on occasion this year, but you could see on specific plays the talent is there. It was too much of this going from a 3-4 to a 4-3 to a 4-6 and not having stability in the scheme. Players start thinking to much about what scheme they are in, where they are suppose to be, where other people are suppose to be ect. They can't just play.

 

Unless of course you are talking about exotic and complex blitzes, which I think are different than having a complicated scheme. You can have a very basic, meaning the scheme isn't changing every down, defensive scheme but dial up exotic blitzes on specific plays. Take for example Dick LeBeau, the Steelers scheme through and through is a 3-4, thats what they draft for and thats the players they have. But he still dials up some complex and exotic blitz packages.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Wayne333

[Hazed and Amuzed]

I also disagree with those that disagree, so I guess I agree.

[Danny]

I also have to disagree. The Bills scheme was so complicated this year that it didn't allow players, who are very naturally gifted, to excel at their positions. Take for example Sheppard, who by all accounts has a lot of football smarts and has great sideline to sideline abilities. He found himself out of position on occasion this year, but you could see on specific plays the talent is there. It was too much of this going from a 3-4 to a 4-3 to a 4-6 and not having stability in the scheme. Players start thinking to much about what scheme they are in, where they are suppose to be, where other people are suppose to be ect. They can't just play.

 

Unless of course you are talking about exotic and complex blitzes, which I think are different than having a complicated scheme. You can have a very basic, meaning the scheme isn't changing every down, defensive scheme but dial up exotic blitzes on specific plays. Take for example Dick LeBeau, the Steelers scheme through and through is a 3-4, thats what they draft for and thats the players they have. But he still dials up some complex and exotic blitz packages.

 

Thank you sir You're right, the word smarter certainly is more accurate. On the other hand, just because a player is smarter doesn't mean they will be able to execute adequately. No problem..

 

 

 

I do not doubt there is something to be said for simplifying a defense. But against the elite teams you better have a few wrinkles up your sleeve as well. Especially when it comes to your blitz packages. Otherwise you will be fine against some teams but the best ones will eat you up.

 

My mindframe has always been the better smarter smarter and more skilled the players you have the more you can complicate things. I would have been happier if I heard Nix say that he will bring players in who can play in an advanced system rather that talk about how he brought in a guy who will simplify things for the players he has.

 

 

Hope that works.

[Danny]

I also have to disagree. The Bills scheme was so complicated this year that it didn't allow players, who are very naturally gifted, to excel at their positions. Take for example Sheppard, who by all accounts has a lot of football smarts and has great sideline to sideline abilities. He found himself out of position on occasion this year, but you could see on specific plays the talent is there. It was too much of this going from a 3-4 to a 4-3 to a 4-6 and not having stability in the scheme. Players start thinking to much about what scheme they are in, where they are suppose to be, where other people are suppose to be ect. They can't just play.

 

Unless of course you are talking about exotic and complex blitzes, which I think are different than having a complicated scheme. You can have a very basic, meaning the scheme isn't changing every down, defensive scheme but dial up exotic blitzes on specific plays. Take for example Dick LeBeau, the Steelers scheme through and through is a 3-4, thats what they draft for and thats the players they have. But he still dials up some complex and exotic blitz packages.

 

 

That's what i was going for. Well explained.

 

But i also think it more than just blitzing. Its disguising what you are doing. Giving a qb like Brady constantly different looks. Moving players around. San Fran and Baltimore do that alot. It seems the best defenses do. I guess im just apprehensive that the Bills will simplify it so that their players can flourish at playing the basics but after a couple weeks someone like Ben or Brady ect. will come along and be like "oh really? no problem"... because those guys have seen it all. Hope that makes more sense.

 

I also disagree with those that disagree, so I guess I agree.

 

I hope now that ive explained all that... those who disagreed wont completely disagree anymore and thus allow you to now agree with those who disagreed while still agreeing on what we agreed upon. Agree?

 

I apologize to the OP for taking over the thread and will now shush while you guys discuss further

[Doc]

Start off simple and once the players get that down, add complexity.

[1B4IDie]

Thank you sir You're right, the word smarter certainly is more accurate. On the other hand, just because a player is smarter doesn't mean they will be able to execute adequately. No problem..

 

 

 

I do not doubt there is something to be said for simplifying a defense. But against the elite teams you better have a few wrinkles up your sleeve as well. Especially when it comes to your blitz packages. Otherwise you will be fine against some teams but the best ones will eat you up.

 

My mindframe has always been the better smarter smarter and more skilled the players you have the more you can complicate things. I would have been happier if I heard Nix say that he will bring players in who can play in an advanced system rather that talk about how he brought in a guy who will simplify things for the players he has.

 

 

Hope that works.

Simple doesn't meam no wrinkles.

 

Simple means a play is practicied (it could be the most exotic blitz the world) a play is called and the play is run.

 

Simple means there are no longer 4 different pre snap reads and 10 different check with mes based on allignment.

 

Now obviously you can't simplify it to the level I describied but you can simplify the amount of reads and audibles that happen on a play.

 

That's the major compenent of simplify.

 

You can still have wrinkly allignments and wrinkly blitzes.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Why So Serious?

[CodeMonkey]

Hopefully Wannstedt's leadership will give us a huge turnaround on defense next year.

Ahhh yes another Bills offseason. This scheme and DC change changes everything! Forget that the Bills have spent the last 2 drafts and FA signings attempting to switch to the 3-4. All it takes is the Stache in charge! Never mind that as asst. HC last season he should have had considerable input into the defense.

 

I believe that Wannstedt is a better DC than G. Edwards will ever be and this switch is a good thing for the Bills. But to expect a complete turnaround simply because of this makes no sense (except to a contingent of impressively optimistic Bills fans I suppose). Now if they completely re-tool the D this offseason with several key strategic FA's and draft picks that is another matter altogether. But if it essentially the same players with a semi-new DC then I do not expect nearly as big of an impact as the OP is hoping for.

Edited January 31, 2012 by CodeMonkey

[Doc]

Ahhh yes another Bills offseason. This scheme and DC change changes everything! Forget that the Bills have spent the last 2 drafts and FA signings attempting to switch to the 3-4. All it takes is the Stache in charge! Never mind that as asst. HC last season he should have had considerable input into the defense.

 

I believe that Wannstedt is a better DC than G. Edwards will ever be and this switch is a good thing for the Bills. But to expect a complete turnaround simply because of this makes no sense (except to a contingent of impressively optimistic Bills fans I suppose). Now if they completely re-tool the D this offseason with several key strategic FA's and draft picks that is another matter altogether. But if it essentially the same players with a semi-new DC then I do not expect nearly as big of an impact as the OP is hoping for.

There's nothing to "believe." Wannstedt is a proven DC, Edwards was/is not (he's probably not even a good LB'er coach). And they don't need to "completely retool" the defense and add a bunch of players over the off-season. The 3-4 was a failure since the majority of players were always best-suited for a 4-3, and the only player drafted from the past 2 years who might not have a role is Carrington. They still need a pass-rushing 4-3 DE and another OLB.

[1B4IDie]

There's nothing to "believe." Wannstedt is a proven DC, Edwards was/is not (he's probably not even a good LB'er coach). And they don't need to "completely retool" the defense and add a bunch of players over the off-season. The 3-4 was a failure since the majority of players were always best-suited for a 4-3, and the only player drafted from the past 2 years who might not have a role is Carrington. They still need a pass-rushing 4-3 DE and another OLB.

 

Exactly. What picks were really wasted on the 3-4? Its really not that big of a transition as the Bills never really made it to a 3-4 in the 2 years it kinda tried.

 

Maybe Troup

Maybe Carrington

 

Although Carrington is big enough to maybe spell Dareus and Kyle Williams in the Middle of the 4-3 line. He'll be used in jumbo sets and because they already stand him on some plays at strong side LB, he could still be a strong side LB on running downs. So the Maybe is less with Carrington imo.

 

Troup is a wasted pick mostly because he is not a good football player and can't stay healthy so it doesn't really matter what scheme we play.

 

Shepp is another pick that has some ??? but only because of the lock-out, Who knew Barnett would sign with the Bills and be a freaking beast. Barnett is more of MLB than an OLB in a 3-4. So thats really the only area that we need to see how it will play out. I think Barnett may be able to play weakside OLB. I really don't know.

 

If we had signed Barnett before the draft like we would have in a non-lockout year we could have drafted a Rusher like Justin Houston in the 3rd instead of Shepp.

 

I keep looking at the 2011 draft and it was loaded with pass rushers from 1st round to 4th. Someone like Justin Houston would probably be a 2nd rounder in 2012 just because there are not as many pass rushers in the 2012 draft.

 

And like usually, the Bills will have to reach in the 2nd or 3rd if they're going to fill out their DEs.

 

The good thing is this year like most, we'll know if we signed any FAs before the draft. Which they're going to have to be major players in the DE and WR FA market if they want to improve in 2012. If they sit on their hand in the FAgency and take a nap at midnight then we'll know that we're in for another 7-9 season. It is that simple in my opinion.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Why So Serious?

[Doc]

Exactly. What picks were really wasted on the 3-4? Its really not that big of a transition as the Bills never really made it to a 3-4 in the 2 years it kinda tried.

 

Maybe Troup

Maybe Carrington

 

Although Carrington is big enough to maybe spell Troup and Kyle Williams in the Middle of the 4-3 line. He'll be used in jumbo sets and because they already stand him on some plays at strong side LB, he could still be a strong side LB on running downs. So the Maybe is less with Carrington imo.

 

Troup is a wasted pick mostly because he is not a good football player and can't stay healthy so it doesn't really matter what scheme we play.

 

Shepp is another pick that has some ??? but only because of the lock-out, Who knew Barnett would sign with the Bills and be a freaking beast. Barnett is more of MLB than an OLB in a 3-4. So thats really the only area that we need to see how it will play out. I think Barnett may be able to play weakside OLB. I really don't know.

 

If we had signed Barnett before the draft like we would have in a non-lockout year we could have drafted a Rusher like Justin Houston in the 3rd instead of Shepp.

 

I keep looking at the 2011 draft and it was loaded with pass rushers from 1st round to 4th. Someone like Justin Houston would probably be a 2nd rounder in 2012 just because there are not as many pass rushers in the 2012 draft.

 

And like usually, the Bills will have to reach in the 2nd or 3rd if they're going to fill out their DEs.

 

The good thing is this year like most, we'll know if we signed any FAs before the draft. Which they're going to have to be major players in the DE and WR FA market if they want to improve in 2012. If they sit on their hand in the FAgency and take a nap at midnight then we'll know that we're in for another 7-9 season. It is that simple in my opinion.

I don't know if we've seen enough of Troup healthy to say he's not a good football player. The thing is, with his back and his size, he might not ever be healthy.

[Max997]

hiring 2 first time co-ordinators didnt help either

[Dragonborn10]

All non-sense. Great players make a scheme look good. We don't have great players and we have few decent players. The defense sucks because they have drafted poorly for a decade and any good players left via FA. The Bills FO has been historically bad talent evaluators. And this group may be no better - remember Gailey started Edwards and Spiller/Lynch over Fitz and Jackson, almost benched Levitre, and played Kelsay at OLB.

That being said if Troup's back gets better he can help form a solid four man rotation at DT with Williams, Dareus, and Heard. He looked decent in pre-season last year. And I think Carrington has a shot at RDE. Kelsay(gulp) is servicable at LDE.

[hondo in seattle]

Simplicity and Complexity aren't an either-or choice. It's a continuum of choice. Defenses that are either too simple or too complex will fail. Nix and Gailey apparently think that Edwards was too far toward the Complex end of the continuum to bring out the best in his players.

 

Wanny will bring the Bills back toward the middle - complex enough to confuse offenses but simple enough that players can react quickly and play aggressively.

 

Sometimes simple defenses can appear complex through a few simple disguises.

[John from Riverside]

I brought this up earlier in the year and Wanstaddt (indirectly) and Gailey (directly) confirmed it to me.....

 

Edwards defense was hurting our players....

 

The instance I gave was Kelvin Shepard....

 

- When Kelvin first got on the field he was playing like his hair was on fire.....hitting everything that moved....playing aggressively and with no hesitation

 

- AS TIME WENT ON I saw him slow down and start to think (read and react) this is VERY bad for a linebacker that relies on his instincts to make plays.....which is what Kelvin is....a linebacker who is always around the ball in college and a ferocious player.

 

When you ask a player like that to take read what is happening and then react then he is already going to be too late.....and it showed as the year went on.

 

The simplifying of the defense will allow him to just react to what his instincts see......and move more quickly and more deliberately.

 

They totally needed to simplify this defense.....defense really isn't complicated.....coaches make it complicated thinking they are going to "outsmart" the OC......just tell each player what he is responsible for and turn them loose.