The Big Cat Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I have to agree with Nix and therefore disagree with you about the CB's. The talent at CB is fine and depth is above average. Try comparing the Bills CB talent to other teams around the league. Then tell me how the Bills stack up in the front 7? Or QB? Or WR? I am not part of the needy-needy-needers on this board who are always sweating how the team can balance it's way into a one time wildcard appearance so they can die happy. But the truth is that the Bills have a pretty good secondary. Capable corners supported by two safeties who wouldn't have been out of place at the pro bowl. I don't think anything I've said runs contrary to what Nix said. In fact, I'd argue quite the opposite. But to your point, scraping the barrel only gets you so far... When you consistently rely on the draft for building late round depth, you end up with a situation like we have right now at OT. Ask a Pittsburgh Steelers fan what happens when your CB's are a bargain-bin liability. Our situation at tackle is quite analogous to what they've had in the way of CB the last half decade. And with Pittsburgh, even there seemingly mechanical front seven has difficulties covering that glaring weakness. So pick your poison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wagon Circler Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I would despise ANY DEFENSIVE BACK picked at #10. The Bills need DE or OLB desperately. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bouds Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Coples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 THE problem is this team needs a CB in a major way. THIS year's draft is weak when it comes to top tier pass rushers. Last year in the 3rd and 4th rounds there were arguably better than some 2012 first round picks like Dontay Moch and Sam Acho (whose brother is. Available and we should draft.) If Blackmon, Reid, Kalil are gone. Its going to be Dre Kirkpatrick So just understand that now in January. The Bills will have two good corners with a healthy Kirkpatrick and Williams and not much else at CB. ALSHON JEFFREY could be an option there too but its shaping up that DB is a realistic possibility and #10. the odds are pretty short that this will happen. You will get no arguement here that the Bills need help at corner. I do think Kirkpatrick has a solid future in the NFL. I just do not see him as being ready to help this team next year. I would not mind him in round 2 either although I doubt he will be there. I do think they need to draft OT, a front 7 defensive player or a WR number at number 10 or trade out of the position. If all else fails and Kirkpatrick is the BPA they should take him but I would hate the pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r00tabaga Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Claiborne (LSU) declaring makes this an even better conversation! He is the top CB prospect...ahead of Dre Kirkpatrick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1B4IDie Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Claiborne (LSU) declaring makes this an even better conversation! He is the top CB prospect...ahead of Dre Kirkpatrick. Yeah Claiborne is likely gone before 10 which means 6'2" KIRKPATRICK should be there. I personally would take Upshaw or Reif or Mike Adams. But I'm telling you right now it might end up being Kirkpatrick. you don't find corners like that in the 2nd round or when trading back. Edited January 13, 2012 by Why So Serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r00tabaga Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Yeah Claiborne is likely gone before 10 which means 6'2" KIRKPATRICK should be there. I personally would take Upshaw or Reif or Mike Adams. But I'm telling you right now it might end up being Kirkpatrick. you don't find corners like that in the 2nd round or when trading back. Walterfootball.com has us getting OLB C.Upshaw in Rd.1(a reach he says, but a perfect fit), OT M.Adams in Rd.2 (a steal IMO), Streeter WR from Miami in Rd.3 & Wisconsin's QB Wilson with the 1st of our (2) 4th Rd picks. Sounds great to me! Edited January 13, 2012 by r00tabaga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 But this is the kind of tunnel vision I'm talking about. This regime (if you count 2009 as part of the Nix-era) has used "high" picks so far on Byrd and Williams. The OLD regime used "high" picks on McKelvin, Whitner and (if 3rd rounders are considered "high") Youboty. It's an area of need and so far the new regime has a tremendous DB hit rate compared to the drafts of yore. I understand being disappointed by not getting the player/position you wanted, but to isolate a position of loathing based on an arbitrary bias ingrained from a bunch yahoos who have since been set free by this organization is self-flagellation! What position did I want?? I never mentioned that I HAD to have a passrusher. But if the best player isn't a passrusher then i'm perfectly happy with a fat slob runstopper or a solid o lineman. the good teams build from the inside out.--We had very good CBs a few years back---with our usual horrible line play--and it got us nowhere. --If an exceptional corner is out there at maybe 3 and at a stretch 2 then OK. #1 should go to the line or LBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Who then? Upshaw? Coples? Both of them are not top talent, freak of nature Pass rushers that you would want to take with the #10 overall pick. Upshaw will be a great backer, but I don't see him as a QB slaying pass rushing specialist. This team has no pass rush. Their starting OLBs are a so-so DE (not noted for speed) and a decent backup DT. Mel Blount and Deion Sanders would give up TD passes while QBs such as SANCHEZ pick them apart with 7 seconds, let alone Brady. One thing the Bills have proven is that if you are going to build from the secondary, you are going to build a team that loses football games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1B4IDie Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This team has no pass rush. Their starting OLBs are a so-so DE (not noted for speed) and a decent backup DT. Mel Blount and Deion Sanders would give up TD passes while QBs such as SANCHEZ pick them apart with 7 seconds, let alone Brady. One thing the Bills have proven is that if you are going to build from the secondary, you are going to build a team that loses football games. Thanks Captain Obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
first_and_ten Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I despise any pick that Ralph Wilson has anything to do with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) This team has no pass rush. Their starting OLBs are a so-so DE (not noted for speed) and a decent backup DT. Mel Blount and Deion Sanders would give up TD passes while QBs such as SANCHEZ pick them apart with 7 seconds, let alone Brady. One thing the Bills have proven is that if you are going to build from the secondary, you are going to build a team that loses football games. I made this argument circa week four, and I stand by it: When Williams and Merriman were health this team DID have a pass rush. We weren't getting sacks, but by God we were getting turnovers. And if you watch those games, the sacks would have come, had the refs called just a single hold on any of the three dozen half-nelsons Williams and Merriman were forced to drag into the backfield on any given play. Edited January 13, 2012 by The Big Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDaDdy Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Dre Kirkpatrick CB Alabama. He does not look NFL ready to me. Kind of a thin lanky body. He did not tackle well against LSU. He had a great play on Special teams during the championship game but he looks like a guy who would spend his first two seasons on IR to me. I do think he will be a very goood nfl player .. Someday. Anyone who is not CLEARLY the 1st or 2nd best in the draft at a position of need. IMO the only positions of need worth consideration in the first round for OUR team that is already 2 years into it's rebuilding process are: Pass Rusher (DE or OLB) LT WR Out of that group you take whichever guy will be a day 1 starter for your team. Spending a first round draft pick on a development guy or someone to challenge at a position you personally don't think we are good enough at is a waste of time, talent and retards the rebuilding process. Edited January 13, 2012 by PDaDdy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Anyone who is not CLEARLY the 1st or 2nd best in the draft at a position of need. IMO the only positions of need worth consideration in the first round for OUR team that is already 2 years into it's rebuilding process are: Pass Rusher (DE or OLB) LT WR Out of that group you take whichever guy will be a day 1 starter for your team. Spending a first round draft pick on a development guy or someone to challenge at a position you personally don't think we are good enough at is a waste of time, talent and retards the rebuilding process. I agree with you by the way I just checked the Bleecher report and Dre Kirkpatrick is on their overated 2012 draft pick list. "Too stiff in the hips, product of the system at Alabama". Kiper also does not have him in the top 10. On the other hand McShay does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Thanks Captain Obvious. I'm sorry that my post made you a little hostile. My point is that there are units on this team in far worse shape than the secondary. How about a LB unit with one credible starter for instance? A first round corner would be a continuation of a stupid philosophy and would most certainly result in more losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm sorry that my post made you a little hostile. My point is that there are units on this team in far worse shape than the secondary. How about a LB unit with one credible starter for instance? A first round corner would be a continuation of a stupid philosophy and would most certainly result in more losses. Look, I agree with you on a lot of things. And I'm still willing to give you the benefit of the jury-being-out on Spiller. HOWEVER, your obsession with The Bills "obsession" with using high draft picks on DB's has no basis in reality. Since 2006, the Bills have used picks in the first three rounds on the following: LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1B4IDie Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I'm sorry that my post made you a little hostile. My point is that there are units on this team in far worse shape than the secondary. How about a LB unit with one credible starter for instance? A first round corner would be a continuation of a stupid philosophy and would most certainly result in more losses. The point of this thread and the question on the table was, "who specifically would you pick to address the pass rusher issue at the #10 pick, specifically who." So thanks for your insight that the Bills have no pass rusher, everyone knows that. How specifically can we resolve this. Besides "Just draft the best pass rusher". Well guess what in 2012 draft. I don't know if there is any as in 1 "best pass rusher" So if you can't draft the "best pass rusher" at #10 what do you do? Take the best overall LB, like Upshaw. That probably won't be a 15 sack guy, but is more like a 6.5 sack guy but a great overall backer. Or do you get a "best pass rusher" later in the draft like Emmanuel Acho that could be there in 3rd or 4th round. Probably 3rd since he is higher regarded than his Brother Sam that went in the 4th in 2011. I loves Sam Acho and he had 6 sacks through last part of the season. Emmanual could be a great situational pass rusher that could give you double digit sacks if used probably. So thats why I said "captain obvious" We know the pass rush sucks, it just looks like there may not be a fix to that problem at the #10 overall pick in the 2012 draft. So if that is the case what do you do? If you think that isn't the case than WHO specifically would you take at #10 overall to fix the pass rushing problem? Edited January 13, 2012 by Why So Serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I made this argument circa week four, and I stand by it: When Williams and Merriman were health this team DID have a pass rush. We weren't getting sacks, but by God we were getting turnovers. And if you watch those games, the sacks would have come, had the refs called just a single hold on any of the three dozen half-nelsons Williams and Merriman were forced to drag into the backfield on any given play. No, not really. Week 2 Jason Cambell had 323 yards as the Bills D spotted OAK 21 points in the first half. The Bills came back and won despite the D gicving up another 14 in the 4th Q. Week 3 Brady threw for 387 yards and 4TDs as the Bills D spotted them a 21 point halftime lead. Brady had 4 ints but he had plenty of time to throw on 3 of them. Week 4 Dalton has nearly 300 yards as the Bills are outscored 20-3 in the second half. Week 5 Vick throws for 315 yards 2 TDs. He had 4 pciks, two were tipped passed, only ony came as he wass pressured/hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 We know the pass rush sucks, it just looks like there may not be a fix to that problem at the #10 overall pick in the 2012 draft. So if that is the case what do you do? If you think that isn't the case than WHO specifically would you take at #10 overall to fix the pass rushing problem? There are a lot of options imo. If Upshaw is able to produce "6.5" sacks, this would absolutely take blockers away from players such as Dareus and Edwards (who I happen to think is good). You see, Moats gets some sacks, but he can't seal off the edge. He is a situatiuonal pass rusher, or else he would always be on the field. Batten is not procucing at all. So Upshaw would add sacks, pressure, AND help vs. the run. Not too shabby imo. But, if they really don't think he is worth a 10 (a team that took Whitner at 8 and Spiller at 9 mind you), how about trading down? The last time we did it (2001) it worked. Even our second round pick could probably get us another 1st in 2013. There is no need to race to the podium and take the supposed "bpa," if taking him will not produce wins and build a solid team. I am an Alabama fan and think that Kirkpatrick will be a fine corner, but one who would rot on a team with no pass rush. I would rather they take Hightower, let alone Upshaw. Barnett and Hightower would be absolute beasts on the inside in a 3/4, wouldn't you say? The very last thing the Bills should do is draft a db or rb at 10. Even a wideout wouldn't be wise imo. Give me an OLB, LT, or trade down. Why keep losing? Jmo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 We call them shiny hood ornaments. Can't stand them in the 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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