truth on hold Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) IMO bills front office has been a rudderless ship for a while now. Ralph put the clamps on nix after botched extensions for merriman and Williams Edited December 30, 2011 by Joe_the_6_pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog69 Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 $7.5 is probably a bit more than I personally think he is worth. I would say he is in the $6m range. But if they get him signed for $7.5per year or less (especially for 4-5 years or more), I would be thrilled with it and I would think it is a fair deal for both sides. He's not quite worth that money yet, but hopefully by the end of the contract he is underpaid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Can someone please explain to me why we even care if the Bills end up overpaying the guy by $1-$1.5 million a year? They're WAY under the cap. There is no other WR remotely as good as SJ on the roster. If they cut him and draft his replacement, it will be more of the wheel-spinning we've seen over the last decade, and they'll have the youngest WR corps in the league. So again, why are we debating whether the Bills should draw a line in the sand at $6 million and not pay a cent more. It ain't your money. Please, tell me why you care. I need to know. Because if you keep overpaying players you will eventually get up to the cap. And the Bills need so much help all over the field they need cap space available to sign good players. Overpaying average players is just not a good idea. If there was no cap I wouldn't care at all if Ralph paid him 6 mil or 60 mil a year. Exactly. As far as I'm concerned, pay Stevie whatever it takes to keep him. This team is better with him than without - it's really that simple. Whatever it takes is just plain silly and naive. If he asked for 10 mil a year for 5 years all guaranteed you would be for that? Come on man. You sound like he is the best receiver in the NFL instead of the best receiver on a team that hasn't sniffed the post season for 12 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellDressed Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 not quite In this situation, the Bills aren't falling all over themselves trying to re-sign a guy thats already decided he wants to "go home" to play (Drury) while the other guy is jumping up and down yelling at the front office to atleast make an offer before he hits FA because he truly wants to stay here (Briere) I should've said a little more. If we let #13 walk...... We've entered Briere Drury II Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 $7.5 is probably a bit more than I personally think he is worth. I would say he is in the $6m range. But if they get him signed for $7.5per year or less (especially for 4-5 years or more), I would be thrilled with it and I would think it is a fair deal for both sides. He's not quite worth that money yet, but hopefully by the end of the contract he is underpaid. what he said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Because if you keep overpaying players you will eventually get up to the cap. And the Bills need so much help all over the field they need cap space available to sign good players. Overpaying average players is just not a good idea. If there was no cap I wouldn't care at all if Ralph paid him 6 mil or 60 mil a year. When the Bills get anywhere close to being near the cap, we can concern ourselves with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
You herd it hear last Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 7.5 million is the sign-up fee for 2012's IR list... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zulu Cthulhu Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 $7.5 is probably a bit more than I personally think he is worth. I would say he is in the $6m range. But if they get him signed for $7.5per year or less (especially for 4-5 years or more), I would be thrilled with it and I would think it is a fair deal for both sides. He's not quite worth that money yet, but hopefully by the end of the contract he is underpaid. I'd like to know how you came up with the number you think SJ is worth. Maybe you are a NFL talent evaluator, maybe you negotiate million dollar contracts daily. If you do, that's great. I know I don't. But I do know that the people that do these contracts use other players' contracts and performances to establish a value for their player - the existing market establishes the baselines for negotiation. It's really the fairest way to do it. So again I bring up Mike Thomas of JAX, who signed an extension in October. He resigned for $18 million total, 9 guaranteed over three years. Now, Buffalo and Jacksonville are comparable as franchises - both aren't marquee teams, both are in similar cap situations (way under), and both teams' receiving corps could be seen as hindered in recent years by mediocre to low QB play. Both have excellent running backs who factor into the passing game. In 3 years of full time action(-1 game), Thomas has 157 rec for 1690 yards and 6 TDs, with 10.8 yds/catch. He's missed 4 games over those 3 years. In 2 years of full time action(-1 game), SJ has 154 rec for 2037 yards and 16 TDs, with 13.2 yds/catch. He's missed no games. SJ has thoroughly out-played his counterpart in Jacksonville, surpassing Thomas's three year totals in two years. He should be making double the amount Thomas just signed for. That's fair in my book. Now you can make up any BS excuse you want about how the Thomas deal doesn't compare, shouldn't apply, etc... But I guarantee the people in the room actually doing the negotiation will be using that recent contract as a comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog69 Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 (edited) I'd like to know how you came up with the number you think SJ is worth. Maybe you are a NFL talent evaluator, maybe you negotiate million dollar contracts daily. If you do, that's great. I know I don't. But I do know that the people that do these contracts use other players' contracts and performances to establish a value for their player - the existing market establishes the baselines for negotiation. It's really the fairest way to do it. So again I bring up Mike Thomas of JAX, who signed an extension in October. He resigned for $18 million total, 9 guaranteed over three years. Now, Buffalo and Jacksonville are comparable as franchises - both aren't marquee teams, both are in similar cap situations (way under), and both teams' receiving corps could be seen as hindered in recent years by mediocre to low QB play. Both have excellent running backs who factor into the passing game. In 3 years of full time action(-1 game), Thomas has 157 rec for 1690 yards and 6 TDs, with 10.8 yds/catch. He's missed 4 games over those 3 years. In 2 years of full time action(-1 game), SJ has 154 rec for 2037 yards and 16 TDs, with 13.2 yds/catch. He's missed no games. SJ has thoroughly out-played his counterpart in Jacksonville, surpassing Thomas's three year totals in two years. He should be making double the amount Thomas just signed for. That's fair in my book. Now you can make up any BS excuse you want about how the Thomas deal doesn't compare, shouldn't apply, etc... But I guarantee the people in the room actually doing the negotiation will be using that recent contract as a comparison. Relax Dude. It's just my opinion. But with regard to your comparison to Mike Thomas, it is clear to me that you aren't an NFL talent evaluator negotiating multi-million dollar deals either. None of us are. When teams sign players they don't simply compare him to one player and sign him for a contract that corresponds to his value versus that player. Stevie will be compared to all current and past NFL players and will be offered a contract that the Bills think is fair. It seems reasonable to me that the Bills would be offering $5-6m and it is reasonable that Stevie is asking for $7.5 or more. If he goes to UFA, he'll get the money. Somebody will pay it regardless of whether or not he is truly worth it or not. Stevie will be this year's Bernard Berrian or TJ Houshmanzadeh. I'd like the Bills to keep him but I don't really want them to overpay. I say that because they don't tend to spend up to the cap and they need to be smart about using their limited payroll budget to get as many good players as possible. They have lots of needs. I would love to see Stevie say, but if he goes, I think he can be replaced fairly easily by somebody like Brandon Lloyd or some other cast off receiver. BTW - How sad is it that you are comparing our Bills to the Jags? Edited December 30, 2011 by Maddog69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zulu Cthulhu Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Relax Dude. It's just my opinion. But with regard to your comparison to Mike Thomas, it is clear to me that you aren't an NFL talent evaluator negotiating multi-million dollar deals either. None of us are. When teams sign players they don't simply compare him to one player and sign him for a contract that corresponds to his value versus that player. Stevie will be compared to all current and past NFL players and will be offered a contract that the Bills think is fair. It seems reasonable to me that the Bills would be offering $5-6m and it is reasonable that Stevie is asking for $7.5 or more. If he goes to UFA, he'll get the money. Somebody will pay it regardless of whether or not he is truly worth it or not. Stevie will be this year's Bernard Berrian or TJ Houshmanzadeh. I'd like the Bills to keep him but I don't really want them to overpay. I say that because they don't tend to spend up to the cap and they need to be smart about using their limited payroll budget to get as many good players as possible. They have lots of needs. I would love to see Stevie say, but if he goes, I think he can be replaced fairly easily by somebody like Brandon Lloyd or some other cast off receiver. BTW - How sad is it that you are comparing our Bills to the Jags? I agree, it is sad comparing the two teams, but that's unfortunately where we are. The Thomas deal was just one example I gave; of course other players' deals, especially recent ones, will be cited. I don't mind if the Bills overpay Stevie a bit, I suppose that's where the disagreement in this whole thread lies. The Bills always seem ready and willing to extend their mediocre players like Pears and Kelsay, it seems odd to me they would play hardball with one of their better, most popular players. And yes, I think $5-6 mil is a lowball offer for a player with Stevie's production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 When the Bills get anywhere close to being near the cap, we can concern ourselves with that... By then you have overpaid players on your roster with 3-4 years left on contracts and it is too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Whatever it takes is just plain silly and naive. If he asked for 10 mil a year for 5 years all guaranteed you would be for that? Come on man. You sound like he is the best receiver in the NFL instead of the best receiver on a team that hasn't sniffed the post season for 12 years. See now, you're completely making stuff up. Stevie's agent is on record as saying he wants $7.5mill/yr; not $10. But, ok, I'll play along... read below. When the Bills get anywhere close to being near the cap, we can concern ourselves with that... Exactly. We're no where near the cap AND we have to spend considerably more just to get to the new league minimum. Who are we going to spend that money on? Let Stevie walk and hope to find a FA of equal or better caliber to spend the money on? Why not just pay the player that's actually produced for the Bills, has chemistry with our QB, and likes the other players and the City? Even if you have to "overpay"; what's the big deal. Until they start overpaying every player, we don't have a problem. Honestly, if Ralph is cheap... it's only because he's giving many of the fans exactly what they're asking for. Pay the man. (freddie too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 By then you have overpaid players on your roster with 3-4 years left on contracts and it is too late. If they're good players you can trade them and get some value back while dumping the cotnract. If the contracts are properly structured and it's not all guaranteed at the end, they get cut. This isn't that hard for other teams to arrange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog69 Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 There are a few problems with overpaying a player like Stevie 1.) The Bills do not and will not spend to the cap so saying they have cap room is irrelevant. They have a specific and limited player budget so they cannot afford to overpay guys just to keep them. They have too many holes. That extra $1-1.5m per year for Stevie could be used to get a veteran backup OL or could be the difference between landing a UFA and just missing. They have to be smart about their spending unless Ralph sells the team to Pegula. 2.) Overpaying for one payer sets a bad precedent. You will end up like the Sabres with guys like Hecht, Pominvillem Gaustad, Miller, etc making WAY too much money. 3.) If you are going to overpay, you do it for elite players. If you have to pay a few million extra to get a superstar, then you do it. Stevie is not a superstar, He is a run of the mill WR with potential. 4.) RALPH IS CHEAP. He won't overpay for anybody. (Sorry, had to throw that in there) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 He's worth 8.5 ...... His numbers suffered because of QB play C'mon man. We could say his numbers are inflated because he wasn't playing across from a decent Z and the WR corps was injured. We could say his numbers are inflated because Chan is a pass-happy galoot. The numbers are what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnyBacker Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Pay the man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Tuesday Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 There are a few problems with overpaying a player like Stevie 1.) The Bills do not and will not spend to the cap so saying they have cap room is irrelevant. They have a specific and limited player budget so they cannot afford to overpay guys just to keep them. They have too many holes. That extra $1-1.5m per year for Stevie could be used to get a veteran backup OL or could be the difference between landing a UFA and just missing. They have to be smart about their spending unless Ralph sells the team to Pegula. Ok, so the Bills shouldn't overpay for Stevie because it would interfere with their cheapness? Really that's what you're going with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog69 Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Ok, so the Bills shouldn't overpay for Stevie because it would interfere with their cheapness? Really that's what you're going with? their cheapness is well known and it is not about to change. My point was that Nix has to maximize what he can get out of the budget he's given. He cannot afford to overpay, especially for less than elite talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Best Player Available Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 their cheapness is well known and it is not about to change. My point was that Nix has to maximize what he can get out of the budget he's given. He cannot afford to overpay, especially for less than elite talent. Two words blow your theory to pieces: Chris Kelsay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zulu Cthulhu Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 There are a few problems with overpaying a player like Stevie 1.) The Bills do not and will not spend to the cap so saying they have cap room is irrelevant. They have a specific and limited player budget so they cannot afford to overpay guys just to keep them. They have too many holes. That extra $1-1.5m per year for Stevie could be used to get a veteran backup OL or could be the difference between landing a UFA and just missing. They have to be smart about their spending unless Ralph sells the team to Pegula. 2.) Overpaying for one payer sets a bad precedent. You will end up like the Sabres with guys like Hecht, Pominvillem Gaustad, Miller, etc making WAY too much money. 3.) If you are going to overpay, you do it for elite players. If you have to pay a few million extra to get a superstar, then you do it. Stevie is not a superstar, He is a run of the mill WR with potential. 4.) RALPH IS CHEAP. He won't overpay for anybody. (Sorry, had to throw that in there) This is 100% wrong, complete fantasy. Amazing what some people can cook up in their minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostradamus Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 their cheapness is well known and it is not about to change. My point was that Nix has to maximize what he can get out of the budget he's given. He cannot afford to overpay, especially for less than elite talent. Not resigning Johnson for slightly below market rate completely undermines the credibility of the franchise. Nix has stated he is building the team through the draft. Johnson is a shining example of how a team can build through the draft. When 7th rounders become 1,000 yard receivers, it goes to show that it is possible to build a team through the draft. But, how can you build a team through the draft when you let your successful draftees walk after their first contract?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 They singed the 3rd string/4th wr to 4 mil/ yr right? This team needs 2 wr upgrades already to get a faster slot and better second outside wr. If they dont retain Johnson make it 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXL Franchize Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 If this is Stevie's asking price then why isnt this done yet? You took the words right out of my mouth. This would be devastating to lose Stevie. He's so proud to be on the Bills and makes it known. Not to mention he gets it done on the field. 7 million is fair....why isn't it done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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