section122 Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Players don't need to be involved and all refs don't need to be involved. A few refs doing the right games could easily do this. It doesn't need to be a huge thing just a couple people could pull it off. Depending on where they are on the field a ref could call pi or not, call holding or not, or make strange calls on reviews. The less people involved the less mouths available to talk about it. Again I have no idea who would pull strings but in a billion dollar industry it would be extremely naive to not think there is some corruption. Whether that involves fixing games is a tough question to answer. Unfortunately I don't think it would surprise many people If it were true... Or else this thread would not still be alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Players don't need to be involved and all refs don't need to be involved. A few refs doing the right games could easily do this. It doesn't need to be a huge thing just a couple people could pull it off. Depending on where they are on the field a ref could call pi or not, call holding or not, or make strange calls on reviews. The less people involved the less mouths available to talk about it. Again I have no idea who would pull strings but in a billion dollar industry it would be extremely naive to not think there is some corruption. Whether that involves fixing games is a tough question to answer. Unfortunately I don't think it would surprise many people If it were true... Or else this thread would not still be alive This thread is now running on the fumes of "if pro wrestlers could be in on scripted wrestling matches (to the complete surprise to some fans), the NFL players could be also"--you know, same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Pretty simple, really, nothing too complicated. Someone bribes a ref who has a weakness of some kind--drug addiction, gambling addiction, a wife/mistress who wants more than he can afford or just plain greed, for ex. Many potential culprits--gamblers (tougher to spot, since it would be about points and not outcome and "winners and losers" would float, but do it too many times at your own risk of being exposed or booted as an official), TV execs wanting a popular team in the playoffs, for ex., or a billionaire owner who can't stand losing, all come to mind. Toughest part is probably knowing who to approach without getting the whistle blown on you, so you'd need to do your homework. Not saying it has happened, but after Donaghy and the Serie A scandal (multiple team officials and refs) it is idiotic to say positively that it can't happen in football, despite what WEO says. In fact, someone about 10 years ago wrote a book naming games that were fixed, I believe. Mainly '70's era stuff. I recall reading it at lunch at a bookstore in the bargain bin, but was too cheap to buy it. Personally, how else can you explain things like watching a ref look right square at Pats* defenders grabbing Marcus Pollards's shoulder pads in that AFCCG a few years back on successive plays without a flag? Had that Tivoed and watched it over and over. He had an unobstructed view of what was clearly holding (the guy had so much jersey on one play that Pollard about had his head jerked clean off), yet no flag. How does one explain something like that benignly? Again, not saying it happened or is happening, but something that already has happened in similar sports is certainly by definition in the realm of the possible at least. Sorry if any of this has already been discussed, just catching the end of the thread here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Pretty simple, really, nothing too complicated. Someone bribes a ref who has a weakness of some kind--drug addiction, gambling addiction, a wife/mistress who wants more than he can afford or just plain greed, for ex. Many potential culprits--gamblers (tougher to spot, since it would be about points and not outcome and "winners and losers" would float, but do it too many times at your own risk of being exposed or booted as an official), TV execs wanting a popular team in the playoffs, for ex., or a billionaire owner who can't stand losing, all come to mind. Toughest part is probably knowing who to approach without getting the whistle blown on you, so you'd need to do your homework. Not saying it has happened, but after Donaghy and the Serie A scandal (multiple team officials and refs) it is idiotic to say positively that it can't happen in football, despite what WEO says. In fact, someone about 10 years ago wrote a book naming games that were fixed, I believe. Mainly '70's era stuff. I recall reading it at lunch at a bookstore in the bargain bin, but was too cheap to buy it. Personally, how else can you explain things like watching a ref look right square at Pats* defenders grabbing Marcus Pollards's shoulder pads in that AFCCG a few years back on successive plays without a flag? Had that Tivoed and watched it over and over. He had an unobstructed view of what was clearly holding (the guy had so much jersey on one play that Pollard about had his head jerked clean off), yet no flag. How does one explain something like that benignly? Again, not saying it happened or is happening, but something that already has happened in similar sports is certainly by definition in the realm of the possible at least. Sorry if any of this has already been discussed, just catching the end of the thread here.... Never said it can't happen. Jus tsaying it's, for me, to long a leap from an blown/missed/dumb call to "the fix is in". TV executives have already paid for the next 20 years of NFL. ANd people here aren't talking about a rogue ref with an addiction. They are talking about institutionalized game fixing. My problem is that, instead of REAL explanations of how it is working that the games are fixed, posters are giving: "It happened in the NBA" (a single ref calling extra fouls to affect the spread for himslef and some low level mobster) "it happened in Serie A " (European/international soccer is rife with scandal and bribery--this is well known and essentailly part of European day to day life. "It happened in 'prefessional' wrestling" (yes, someone did shore up their argument with that). I need more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ (not THAT RJ) Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I think it is very unlikely that games are fixed on any grand scale. What is certainly true, however, is that the officiating in NFL games is very uneven, and the unevenness is much more obtrusive in football, where missed calls (or blown non-calls) can have such a vital impact on games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 (edited) Never said it can't happen. Jus tsaying it's, for me, to long a leap from an blown/missed/dumb call to "the fix is in". TV executives have already paid for the next 20 years of NFL. ANd people here aren't talking about a rogue ref with an addiction. They are talking about institutionalized game fixing. My problem is that, instead of REAL explanations of how it is working that the games are fixed, posters are giving: "It happened in the NBA" (a single ref calling extra fouls to affect the spread for himslef and some low level mobster) "it happened in Serie A " (European/international soccer is rife with scandal and bribery--this is well known and essentailly part of European day to day life. "It happened in 'prefessional' wrestling" (yes, someone did shore up their argument with that). I need more. Easy, best example is the Bills/Bengals game this year. The Bills were favored by 3.5 points and their offense had been on fire. Vegas takes a ton of bets in favor of the Bills to cover. With the Bills up by 7 in the 4th and driving to go up by 2 scores, Stevie Johnson makes a catch on 3rd and 1 right in front of an official. But one of the back judges over rules the call and says no catch. Killing the drive and giving the Bengals the ball where they proceed to tie it up. Next, with the score tied and Bengals ball, Dalton scrambles on 3rd and 3 and is taken down short of the 1st Down marker. The refs still call a 1st down. It takes a booth replay to overturn the call on the field. But the Bengals still go on to kick the game winner. The Bengals had OBVIOUS help winning that game, or at least keeping it close. You can call it a conspiracy theory, whatever. I'll call it being naive. It's not fixing, it's point shaving. Edited December 29, 2011 by DrDareustein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Easy, best example is the Bills/Bengals game this year. The Bills were favored by 3.5 points and their offense had been on fire. Vegas takes a ton of bets in favor of the Bills to cover. With the Bills up by 7 in the 4th and driving to go up by 2 scores, Stevie Johnson makes a catch on 3rd and 1 right in front of an official. But one of the back judges over rules the call and says no catch. Killing the drive and giving the Bengals the ball where they proceed to tie it up. Next, with the score tied and Bengals ball, Dalton scrambles on 3rd and 3 and is taken down short of the 1st Down marker. The refs still call a 1st down. It takes a booth replay to overturn the call on the field. But the Bengals still go on to kick the game winner. The Bengals had OBVIOUS help winning that game, or at least keeping it close. You can call it a conspiracy theory, whatever. I'll call it being naive. It's not fixing, it's point shaving. At this point id lend more credence to examples of us getting undeserved wins. Surely this goes both ways if it's Vegas and not just the NFL pushing big markets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 At this point id lend more credence to examples of us getting undeserved wins. Surely this goes both ways if it's Vegas and not just the NFL pushing big markets? Who knows. Im not saying my example is perfect, or even correct. Just that it's easy to find reasons and examples. Regardless, I'll say that whether you think it's Vegas, a League Conspiracy, or just innocent bad calls, the first step in solving the problem is simply making them full time employees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Who knows. Im not saying my example is perfect, or even correct. Just that it's easy to find reasons and examples. Regardless, I'll say that whether you think it's Vegas, a League Conspiracy, or just innocent bad calls, the first step in solving the problem is simply making them full time employees. I'd agree with that AND having penalties review-able with the same rules as having plays review-able already in place. And before WEO weighs in with the who reviews the call to cancel the penalty, I say someone in the league booth or as Buffalo Barbarian suggested earlier in the thread: There would need to be a separate review committee instead of refs so there isn't any conflict of interest.Each game is reviewed afterwords anyway so they could punish refs who make outrageous calls just like they do for players with helmet to helmet hits. Having some transparency in place would make the league more credible and fans that much less to B word about in the fairness of the refereeing of games. Which is really what this whole issue is about in the first place. How many message boards have threads about refs losing the game for their team, after virtually every game, every week? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Who knows. Im not saying my example is perfect, or even correct. Just that it's easy to find reasons and examples. Regardless, I'll say that whether you think it's Vegas, a League Conspiracy, or just innocent bad calls, the first step in solving the problem is simply making them full time employees. Actually, I asked for evidence of institiuionalized game fixing and you stepped up with thsi game as the "best example". Now you say it may not even be a correct example....yet it's easy to "find reasons and examples". Not convincing. I'd agree with that AND having penalties review-able with the same rules as having plays review-able already in place. And before WEO weighs in with the who reviews the call to cancel the penalty, I say someone in the league booth or as Buffalo Barbarian suggested earlier in the thread: Having some transparency in place would make the league more credible and fans that much less to B word about in the fairness of the refereeing of games. Which is really what this whole issue is about in the first place. How many message boards have threads about refs losing the game for their team, after virtually every game, every week? My guess is just this one. Anyway, if the league is "in on it", what good would there be in having a "league" person in the booth reviewing these calls? How would that make it more "transparent" for the fans? And this "full time ref" talk is odd. If you think refs are "in on it", how would making them "full time employees" add to transparency? Wouldn't they be even more beholden to their "full time" employer than they are now? Other than the commish and his staf, there are no "full time employees" of the NFL. None of this is going to eliminate bad calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRHater69 Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 It's the calls that swing games that have me suspecting the integrity of officials. Ed Hoculi in the Denver San Diego game a few years ago blew it big time and cost a game at the end. How about Phil Lucket screwing up the coin toss on Thanksgiving. Or, as mentioned up thread, the "Just give it to him" fiasco in New England....don't even get me started on the tuck rule...did you know the ref of that game didn't officiate another Raiders game for several YEARS. Then there was the Browns/Jaguars game where the official reviewed a play AFTER the ball had been snapped. If you want to go back a few years, anyone remember Jerry Bergman when he flagged Pat Toomay for unsportsmanlike conduct while he was trying to get to a loose ball? That call ruined a Bills comeback effort against Miami and that little arrogant SOB Bergman had the nerve to send in pictures of the so called "penalty" to the Currier Express......actually I'm kinda sorry I found this topic, my blood is boiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'64 Bills Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I think the officials are under huge pressure to protect QB's, stop helmet-to-helmet contact and generally make the game "prettier" from NFL management. It is affecting the calls on the field. Hockey with the new concussion rules is going the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 Morrison Illegal contact in the third was BS, guess pats need that first round bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 1, 2012 Author Share Posted January 1, 2012 I guess tackling our defenders isn't holding either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NastyMan Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 I guess tackling our defenders isn't holding either. There was a lot of holding calls on the Pats that weren't called and some crazy holding calls on Andy that seemed harmless to me. I was very disappointed in the game calling in the second half. Plus if they are going to flag SJ for lifting up his shirt in the endzone then Hernandez should have been flagged to for prancing around. The NFL needs to get a grasp on this. I think they should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it is not directly intended for someone on the other team or someone in the league. A little dance, lifting up your shirt, come on. Seriously... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 1, 2012 Share Posted January 1, 2012 There was a lot of holding calls on the Pats that weren't called and some crazy holding calls on Andy that seemed harmless to me. I was very disappointed in the game calling in the second half. Plus if they are going to flag SJ for lifting up his shirt in the endzone then Hernandez should have been flagged to for prancing around. The NFL needs to get a grasp on this. I think they should be allowed to do whatever they want as long as it is not directly intended for someone on the other team or someone in the league. A little dance, lifting up your shirt, come on. Seriously... not agreeing with the rule doesnt mean it was enforced wrong. stevie is dumb for taking the same exact call multiple times. once could be ignorance of the rule which is bad, but understandable.... this is like his 4-5th celebration penalty and 2nd for this exact act. now you want the refs to keep up on storylines to know what messages on the shirt are offensive to other players? i know this one seems silly but its a hardline rule for a reason. simple to follow. just like going to the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 That game went well beyond incompetent WRT the calls and non-calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Rob Ray just said on GR that the 99 stanely cup was fixed when he saw Bettman talking to an a official durring I think game 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts