Perhaps we should stop calling it a "lack of depth"

[Coach Tuesday]

the coach and buddy didn't want evans because he was viewed as soft. Nothing to do with money

 

You are wrong. I'm not going to dig it all up for you, but it was clear at the time that the decision to trade Evans was made by Ralph's accountants, and Nix and Buddy grudgingly went along with it because they had no choice.

[colin]

truth rings out in this thread.

 

we could have kept -- greer, whitner, poz, cj ah you, hargrove, hangartern, and even with all the draft picks that haven't been good, we would have had a much much better team. there are many more players, but these are all guys who were at need positions who we let go WHILE THEY WERE FILLING NEED POSITIONS just to fill in again. another step back and you have lynch, fletcher, tko spikes, clements. if they kept these guys, even at contracts that would have seemed like too much, they would have made good positive contributions to our team and allowed us to spend draft picks on other needs. all the above guys with the possible exception of clements are good solid football players doing well in the nfl right now. if we kept half of them and spent 3 draft picks on something other than their replacements, we'd have a much much better team today, and even be competing for the playoffs.

 

at some point the bills have to figure out a way to keep good players, because we've had the guys come through here who were good enough to win.

[It's in My Blood]

the coach and buddy didn't want evans because he was viewed as soft. Nothing to do with money

 

The Bills traded Evans because he was a one trick pony in regards to running routes and they got great value for a declining WR on a young and rebuilding team.

[Ray]

It certainly is at least in part lack of investment.....letting Evans go at 3M per year and Handgartner as good center backup.....I dont buy the he can't play guard argument they gave.

[Webster Guy]

You are wrong. I'm not going to dig it all up for you, but it was clear at the time that the decision to trade Evans was made by Ralph's accountants, and Nix and Buddy grudgingly went along with it because they had no choice.

Agreed. You're not following the Bills if you think Evans was traded to improve the team. It was to improve the bottom line. Which is unfortunate because we basically traded Lee's salary for Brad Smith's salary, and now Brad the QB is out there running routes as our starting WR. A huge downgrade on an offense that didn't have much room to go down.

 

Veteran WR's are important to have at times like these when your QB is struggling badly. Gets back to the original point about recycling players, which was a very solid observation. This is a team treading water. Expect 500 seasons at best until we spend what other teams are spending, and that involves paying some guys a little more than you think they're worth.

 

Funny that last year's superbowl champs and the best team in the NFL is owned by shareholders, with a dynamic board of directors that make informed decisions and actively re-invest in their team. Proactive, planned guidance and thoughtful team direction, all in a market smaller than ours and look what they've acccomplished.

 

We have a 93 year old confused guy from Detroit. Is anyone surprised?

[Coach Tuesday]

The Bills traded Evans because he was a one trick pony in regards to running routes and they got great value for a declining WR on a young and rebuilding team.

 

I am not going to be able to prove to some of you that the Earth is round...

[FLFan]

My understanding is that they could have locked up Poz before the labor dispute/CBA expiration without those restrictions, but I could be wrong. As for Whitner, they could've locked him up earlier (or tried to) before the impasse occurred. And it certaily appeared as though they had a last crack at him before he signed with the Bengals/49ers but they declined to get involved.

 

As for disregarding Donahoe/Levy, I totally disagree. I'm not sure how you can say that it's irrelevant when we have it on good authority that Littman and Overdorf traded Evans away. It's the same group running this team, regardless of public appearances. I don't see any difference in how this team is run as opposed to the previous regimes. Steveie Johnson is going to walk - you watch. They'll draft his replacement in Round 1. Same old same old.

 

As for the draft, clearly they need to draft better, but I think the jury is still out on whether the Bills have indeed "whiffed." A counter-argument could be made that the Bills have drafted solid players but have failed to develop them and have failed to re-sign them. Whitner, Maybin and Evans are all high draft picks who are components of other teams' roster depth. McKelvin is sure to be next on that list, and perhaps Spiller after him. These players cannot be called busts right now - they just haven't been developed by the Bills. I don't see evidence of that changing, quite frankly.

 

Respectfully, you are wrong about Poz. They had no option prior to FA. As for Whitner, I think Wilson has played far better this year at SS than Whitner ever did, and I think Byrd is a better FS. Not sure I understand your comment about locking Whitner up before the impasse. The impasse was about him over valuing his services and voluntarilly cutting off negotiations to wait for FA. By the time he signed, the Bills had already locked up their plans with Wilson. I think they are better for it frankly.

 

Stevie Johnson may walk - we shall see. Perhaps someone will offer him a bloated contract he cannot say no to. I do know this - if he wanted to be here as he says he does, he would not have cut off negotiations. He has stars and $ in his eyes. He will be with the Bills if he wants to be, but I would not be surprised if he gets an offer well beyond his value. Should the Bills over pay to keep him? I am not so sure, although I woould like to see him stay.

 

Yes, an arguemnent could be made over developing players I suppose, but I would not use Whitner. He is a decent player, over drafted at number 8, who I think reached his limited potential when here. As I have already said, I think Wilson has outplayed him by a mile. Evans has contributed nothing to the Ravens. It was unfortunate that he had to endure such a revolving door of bad coaches and worse QBs in Buffalo, but those are the breaks. No problem with the Bills letting this one trick poney go. There was no way to predict that 3 of their top 4 receivers would go down with injuries fairly early. In hindsight, it would have been nice to have Evans obvioulsy, but I have no problem with the decision to cut him loose and go with the youth. As for Maybin, I am not sold. I still think he sucks frankly. He is not an OLB or a DE and a major whiff that high in the draft. The jets were able to pick him up off the street and make some use of him for a minimum salary, but there is no arguement to be made the he was a good investment of that high a draft choice. I hope McKelvin is next on the list. How much more evidence do you need that he cant play CB? Should we be extending him? If his contract is up, good riddance. If not, give him one more chance to contribute at the position. He is no better than the 4th best CB on this team right now. Spiller is not going anywhere.

[Ray]

I am not going to be able to prove to some of you that the Earth is round...

You won't so don't try. All planets revolve around the earth and not the sun. I am sure anyone can objectively say that Ruval Martin, Donal Jones and D Hagan are much better than Lee Evans.

[sllib olaffub]

I agree wholeheartedly with this post - lack of depth! When they're 30 million under the cap, when they've been pinching pennies for decades now - and, the reason nobody wants to come to Buffalo, the reason no coaches, no marquee players like Clabo will come here is exactly that - we don't invest in winning. Bottom line. Winning at all cost, at top priority isn't the Bills motto - that is the bottom line, that is all that needs said until it changes. They (Ralph, Littman, whoever else) will not use every resource available - they act handicapped - and face it, who wants to work for a handicapped football team when there are other teams with ownership like the Sabres have? That is what we need, and the sooner we see a change, the better!

[Damian]

The new CBA will force Wilson to spend more to meet the salary floor level, but that floor doesn't take effect until 2013...

[Coach Tuesday]

The new CBA will force Wilson to spend more to meet the salary floor level, but that floor doesn't take effect until 2013...

 

Even then, if this team spends at or near the floor, it'll be more of the same. It needs a serious infusion of resources to become competitive. And that won't happen under Ralph.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Coach Tuesday

[BillsVet]

Again, I know this isn't a new point - we all know where the Bills' struggles derive from. I just don't want the discussion about "lack of depth" to lose sight of what the issue really is. The Bills don't invest. They don't rebuild - they recycle. They are built to turn a profit for their ownership with minimal personnel expenditures, and they have succeeded in doing so. They are built to sell tickets in July and August. They are not built to compete in December and January.

 

Great thread OP. I would only add that the Bills have predominantly used the last 6 drafts to address significant needs at the expense of building elsewhere. A player is cut, no replacement is available, and they draft the new guy. How can anyone expect, even with a good draft record, for this model to work successfully especially that they're reluctant to sign their own? If Johnson departs and a receiver is drafted either 1st or 2nd, how can anyone say the team is building anymore?

 

The late Jim Kelley once described the Bills as, like you say, being built for entertainment. I'm paraphrasing, but these past few seasons are reason enough to believe there is no other pursuit by this team than to sell tickets and merchandise. Winning is a costly venture, but as RW says, you've got to have luck. If that's the case, they need a few more rainbows.

 

EDIT: I'm constantly amazed at the reasons thrown out to not sign your own players. It seems there's a concerted effort to demean certain players who will demand big dollars. First there was P. Williams, then Fletcher, Spikes, Greer, and Peters. Now it's Stevie. Ironic how all were in line for decent sized contracts and that there was an overwhelming reason for not keeping them.

Edited December 20, 2011 by BillsVet

[It's in My Blood]

I am not going to be able to prove to some of you that the Earth is round...

 

It was a move with the future in mind. Can you really say that you believed before the year began that the Bills would be better than .500? If so, then yes it was a dumb move but most of us had this team pegged for another losing season before and after the trade. Lee Evans wasn't our numver one WR in 2010 and has barely seen the field for the Ravens.

[Ramius]

I don't think it's a lack of investment, it's just bad investment decisions.

 

Look at the Steelers--they let star players walk all the time (e.g., a lot of their star LB's like Chad Brown, LeVon Kirkland, Kendrell Bell, Greg Lloyd, etc.)--but because they have a replacement plan.

 

The key is you draft a core of key guys, and try to hang on to them. Maybe there are guys that you would love to hang onto, but are too costly--then you plan by drafting their replacements.

 

No. You plan by having young guys ready to step into starting roles, which allows you to let certain players to walk. The steelers don't lets "stars" go unless they have a replacement already on the roster ready to step in. The Bills do it ass backwards by cutting someone and then scrambling to find a replacement.

[All_Pro_Bills]

Great thread OP. I would only add that the Bills have predominantly used the last 6 drafts to address significant needs at the expense of building elsewhere. A player is cut, no replacement is available, and they draft the new guy. How can anyone expect, even with a good draft record, for this model to work successfully especially that they're reluctant to sign their own? If Johnson departs and a receiver is drafted either 1st or 2nd, how can anyone say the team is building anymore?

 

The late Jim Kelley once described the Bills as, like you say, being built for entertainment. I'm paraphrasing, but these past few seasons are reason enough to believe there is no other pursuit by this team than to sell tickets and merchandise. Winning is a costly venture, but as RW says, you've got to have luck. If that's the case, they need a few more rainbows.

 

EDIT: I'm constantly amazed at the reasons thrown out to not sign your own players. It seems there's a concerted effort to demean certain players who will demand big dollars. First there was P. Williams, then Fletcher, Spikes, Greer, and Peters. Now it's Stevie. Ironic how all were in line for decent sized contracts and that there was an overwhelming reason for not keeping them.

You hit it. You are not rebuilding if you constantly create new needs, by letting good players go, and then spending draft choices or free agent money signing replacements. You are running in place playing a zero-sum game.

 

When I read the OP the thought that came to mind was the Bills simply do not have a system in place that works.

 

IMO, Buddy's last draft was good but to use some language consistent with his 'if you don't plug the drain the sink's ever gonna fill up'. Not re-signing Johnson will be a huge mistake..

[Ramius]

You hit it. You are not rebuilding if you constantly create new needs, by letting good players go, and then spending draft choices or free agent money signing replacements. You are running in place playing a zero-sum game.

 

When I read the OP the thought that came to mind was the Bills simply do not have a system in place that works.

 

IMO, Buddy's last draft was good but to use some language consistent with his 'if you don't plug the drain the sink's ever gonna fill up'. Not re-signing Johnson will be a huge mistake..

 

The Bills sink has many drains. And instead of buying more plugs to stop up all the holes, they pull a plug from one hole, move it to another, and then wonder why the sink never fills.

[sllib olaffub]

Perfect - "if you don't plug the drain, the sink 'ill never fill!" - summary of Buffalo Bills Football.

[John from Riverside]

I would just like to know why we always have the highest rate of injured reserve players every year (or at least it seems like it)

 

I thought they might be onto something by bring in guys "that are of actual football size" meaning no tweeners.....big solid hard hitting tough players.....

 

This ended up not working out

[Coach Tuesday]

Here is a good and timely article about the type of organizational dysfunction that can afflict NFL teams:

 

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/On-the-Firing-Line-9215.html

 

Here is the key excerpt which I think sheds light on the Bills' problems:

 

The key to sustained success in the NFL is having buy-in from all three facets, with a singular focus and purpose. For instance, if a team is a "draft and develop" team reflecting a philosophy of the general manager to build from within – as the Packers – the coach and the contracts person (which I was in Green Bay) have to operate with that philosophy front of mind.

 

The coaching staff must be willing to play young players and suffer through such inexperience. They must accept that they will not be rewarded with quick fixes or insurance policies to plug holes due to injury. "Draft and develop" coaching staffs must trust their scouts and must be willing to endure growing pains on the fly. Similarly, the contract side of the organization must allocate resources to securing core young players for the long-term rather than chasing high-priced players from other teams in free agency.

 

I would just like to know why we always have the highest rate of injured reserve players every year (or at least it seems like it)

 

I thought they might be onto something by bring in guys "that are of actual football size" meaning no tweeners.....big solid hard hitting tough players.....

 

This ended up not working out

 

I just think that's not the issue. Green Bay won the Superbowl last year with the highest number of IR'd players in the league. If you have depth and a solid system, you can overcome injuries. Although my suspicion is that the Bills' players don't get injured more, they just get IR'd more, because OBD doesn't believe that they'll need those players in late December and January and they want a chance to look at the young, cheaper replacements to see whether a change can be made.

[Poeticlaw]

It's a lack of investment.

 

To be sure, the Bills lack roster depth, as they have for two decades. But I get concerned when posters and writers refer to this issue as though it's the cause of the Bills' current woes - it isn't. Rather, it's a symptom of a lack of investment in the product by OBD. To call the problem a "lack of depth" suggests that the issue can somehow be cured through one or two more drafts. But we all know that isn't the case, because the Bills have shown over and over again that they won't (i) re-sign their own players at market rates, or (ii) spend on free agents to improve the roster. So all that happens through the draft is a recylcing process, whereby we let Poz/Whitner walk and draft Sheppard/Searcy to replace them. Next year no doubt we'll draft Evans' replacement.

 

The fundamental problem is a lack of investment by the owner and his bean counters. The entire concept of "building through the draft," as preached by Nix, is a sham, because the philosophy doesn't work if you don't continue to accumulate players through free agency or re-signing your own guys. In order to have depth, you need to invest $$ in your personnel, in at least one of those two ways. The Bills do neither. Most successful teams focus on at least one or the other - Green Bay and Pittsburgh draft well and tend to re-sign their best players to second contracts (though not all of them); San Francisco has 7 starters this year that it signed as free agents.

 

Again, I know this isn't a new point - we all know where the Bills' struggles derive from. I just don't want the discussion about "lack of depth" to lose sight of what the issue really is. The Bills don't invest. They don't rebuild - they recycle. They are built to turn a profit for their ownership with minimal personnel expenditures, and they have succeeded in doing so. They are built to sell tickets in July and August. They are not built to compete in December and January.

 

but they do resign their own players at higher then what the market would have paid for them. Such as Kelsay and no matter what type of talent you may state that Evans had he was a one trick pony not worth the money he was paid either. They also over paid for schobel who nwas a talented bill but really the price we paid him is more then any other team would have paid for them.

 

We have several issues that need to be corrected.

1. The current owner only cares about the bottom line: Profit. Not winning. Until we can get a new owner this will not change.

2. The drafts prior to this year have been horrendous. I think that they might be turning a corner. We will have to waid to see how the 2012 draft pans out before I believe that we have finally cured this woe.

3. We are overvaluing certain players based on potential or possible potential and neither of them win football games. I dont care who on this board likes either of the LTs that we have been playing the both are not starting material and we are in desperate need of filling that hole and I hope they do so this off season.

The biggest question I would have if I am the Bills front office is Steve Johnson worth 9 mil a year. I dont have that answer right now. I see flashes of greatness followed by flashes of what the hell are you doing. However after johnson we don have any #1 or # 2 reecievers so either resign and hope the investment pans out or find 2 starting recievers. Kelsay is seriously overpaid and should not be a LB in this leaugue at all. I would love to see him cut personally. Merriman is never going to be anything he once was we love his name becaus eof what he once was but just like your fantasy team you need to know when to cut the player so we can have someone that actually helps the tean now.

4. Our problem is not whether we have a 3-4 or a 4-3 or not having players to run either or a hybrid of the two its that George Edwards just plain sucks he does not know how to scheme and run the right pressures or right palys at the right times and that defense has cost us atleast 3 games this season. We need a real DC that knows how to scheme and call a good to great game. This is whats going to help the offense woes. The team was winning when the defense was giving them turn overs only problem was they also gave up huge yards and lots of points. I would be seriously pissed if he is not fired at the end of the season.

5. Not going after atleast 1 or 2 key free agents I think hurt us this season. We waited until we could get the bottom of 2nd tier to 3rd teir free agents and that is not going to win games either, I hope the fast start and the injuries this team suffered opens the eyes to try and get one or two good to great free agents. I dont believe we need a ton of them but two solid players of the following group would be a great upgrade to this team LT/LB/WR/CB

 

Contrary to everyone elses thoughts on the board I dont feel a qb is needed in this draft. I like fitz ( this a quality statemnt since I never wanted him in the first place he has the intangibles that we cannot predict in anyone else) and its a shame to see the struggles but how much of is him or not being on the same page with the recievers or being down by two many points and trying to force things more then he should. Hear me out, if they build the team defense to offense and if Fitz still has issues after giving him better defense and offense players then you can go after a QB but atleast the team would be close to ready for the QB then it is right now. I have a great feeling ans I stated it at the beginning if the seaon to alot of people I know. We may not be great this season at best we would go 8-8 but we have some players on the rise and those players and this team with another quality draft and good free agent sigings will compete for the east next season. I am never that optimistic I always look at things from a realistic point of view. I see this happening. With Fitz in the driver seat.