Another Lee Evans thread......

[GG]

So what's your point?

 

Other than DC Tom's standard response? Bills WRs have no proven deep threat, other than fans' lofty expectations in reading stat lines.

 

Read Rich's or KTFAUD's analyses of the games. Bills only attempted 2 passes that traveled more than 25 yards in the air. A great TD pass by Fitz and a gadget pass by Smith where Parrish couldn't outrun th ecoverage despite his great speed.

 

There's a reason no pass traveled far and it's not only due to Fitz's lack of a deep ball. It has more to do that Bills don't have the horses to stretch the field.

 

So do not run to the safety of the stat books and tell me that this guy ran a sub 4 this or that. None of these guys have beaten NFL press coverage, and Roscoe was a dismal failure when they tried him out wide and Gailey wasn't stupid enough to take him out of the slot. Even in limited preseason action, before his injury, Easley looked bad and got tossed to third string.

 

Doesn't mean that Gailey won't try to use their speed on the underneath routes and confusing patterns. But it's going to be more difficult to execute, because now the safeties will cheat, coordinators will pay attention to Chandler and it will not seem as easy as it was in KC that was missing Berry.

[Doc]

 

Of course financial considerations are factored in player transactions for all teams. But the difference is that with Evans and Hangartner, both players from a salary standpoint, fit under the Bills more stringent cap/cash payroll. The players replacing Evans are less talented. Releasing Hangartner hurt the OL from a depth standpoint. My point regarding these two players is simply that their departures were primarily due to financial and not football considerations.

 

As I have already stated Evans is in a much better situation for himself because he is now with a better run organization. He is now on a team that will probably be in the playoffs and have serious SB aspirations.

My point is that your point would be wrong. And looking at the Chefs game, the Bills didn't miss Evans. So it was a win-win for both teams, at least in the short-term. Whether Evans is the key to get the Ravens (back) to the SB (they've made the playoffs the past few years without him) and the Bills' passing game can continue to not miss him, remain to be seen.

[NoSaint]

How about you address the point rather than make swarmy comments. That being without Lee we have no speed at the WR position. Both of the players mentioned (Parrish & Spiller) have speed and can make teams pay for jamming the line & playing shallow. And before you talk about that 3rd string back, hasn't Gailey put BOTH Jackson and Spiller on the field at the same time (that would be yes) and hasn't Spiller lined up or motioned to WR (that would be yes again).

 

As far as that WR on IR goes, all that was brought up was that he too had 4.4 speed and could stretch the field when playing.

 

Some of you with this Lee is God and cannot be replaced attitude really need to stop.

 

I dont think anyone's argued that.

 

My point was you served up a runningback, a guy on IR, and a guy that is very small and would struggle on the outside (and hasn't proven he can take NFL hits all season).

 

A sure handed running back isn't the same as a guy that can run good routes, attack the ball at it's highest point, etc... Although lees abilities at those are suspect compared to elite guys, our worst receiver will fare better than spiller with regards to being a polished receiver. He is a matchup problem because you get lbs and safeties covering him.

 

I don't get why saying he is a better than average player, and not dime a dozen equates to being crazy or thinking he's god

Edited September 14, 2011 by NoSaint

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Apologies for starting another Evans thread but I thought it might be worth it since a) I'm probably the only dude on this board who actually watched the entire Balt/Pitt game and b)I'm probably the only guy on this board who hasn't missed a single one of those matchups in years since it's my favorite rivalry right now.

Here's the truth of the matter; Lee Evans has significantly altered the entire dynamic of this division rivalry. And I'd guess that these 2 games (and sometimes 3) are the biggest reason they brought him to Baltimore.

I don't care about math and/or whether he put up a single statistic. This game had Evans fingerprints on it right from the get-go. Do you know why Boldin was singled on the first TD vs a weak corner who'd been out all preseason? Because the Stillers rolled their coverage over at Evans. It's right there on the film if you want to see it. Did you know that Baltimore has repeatedly struggled to get their TE's and RB's involved in the passing game against the Stillers, and for many, many years now? Yet on Sunday they found enough space for these guys to catch about a dozen balls for 150+ yards. There were places all over the field where the Ravens have never been able to find space against Pittsburgh(flats and seams), yet now those places are suddenly vacant of defenders. I don't believe for a second that this is just a co-incidence.

For the first time in years, the Ravens have the ability to stretch the field in a big way. And suddenly they have more space to work with all over the field. If y'all think that Evans isn't a significant factor in this new equation, I'd have to say you're badly mistaken on that point.

 

P.S. This post is not intended to speculate on what Evans' may have done if he was still in Buffalo, or start tangents on why the Bills traded him. Just wanted to bring some light to the ongoing evolution of what I think is a really fascinating matchup. Doug Whaley is taking some grief from his old buddies in Pittsburgh right now because he played a part in altering the balance of power in this rivalry. But don't take any of that guff, Fresh! Give it right back to 'em with both barrels!!!

 

As a long time follower of the rivalry you probably know the Evans is effectively an upgrade over Donte Stallworth. Donte was supposed to open the field up for Mason as a deep threat (who was basically upgraded with Bolden). I have long advocated an Evans trade feeling he did not fit into Chan's offense, but equally felt like he was the "missing piece" somewhere else and would have commanded a better pick or player in return.

[NoSaint]

I'm still curious about his snap count if anyone noticed

[MatthewStewart]

yea - missing 3 games last year is totally noteworthy as he has been riddled with injuries in his career. oh wait, hes missed almost no games, so it makes sense to write off those numbers as a little low due to an out of the ordinary injury. i forgot, we can write off the ones that he put up huge numbers, but not the one time he sprained his ankle.

 

his average years put him at about 50 catches, 900 yards and 6-8 touchdowns. thats a good season. if we get that season out of whoever lines up across from stevie we would be ecstatic.

 

No.

 

I'm saying that if you write off his worst season, then you should write off his best season. At which point he is an average #2 in the NFL. Or you take his entire body of work, and, in my opinion, he is still an average #2.

 

Teams that double the oppositions #2 all day lose.

 

Simple.

Edited September 14, 2011 by MatthewStewart

[CBD]

Lee Evans back in a boot:

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/14/lee-evans-back-in-a-boot/

[NoSaint]

No.

 

I'm saying that if you write off his worst season, then you should write off his best season. At which point he is an average #2 in the NFL. Or you take his entire body of work, and, in my opinion, he is still an average #2.

 

Teams that double the oppositions #2 all day lose.

 

Simple.

 

I'm not sure what teams you watch but if you think that about 15 have better number 2s we agree to disagree I think.

[The Big Cat]

Other than DC Tom's standard response? Bills WRs have no proven deep threat, other than fans' lofty expectations in reading stat lines.

 

Read Rich's or KTFAUD's analyses of the games. Bills only attempted 2 passes that traveled more than 25 yards in the air. A great TD pass by Fitz and a gadget pass by Smith where Parrish couldn't outrun th ecoverage despite his great speed.

 

There's a reason no pass traveled far and it's not only due to Fitz's lack of a deep ball. It has more to do that Bills don't have the horses to stretch the field.

 

So do not run to the safety of the stat books and tell me that this guy ran a sub 4 this or that. None of these guys have beaten NFL press coverage, and Roscoe was a dismal failure when they tried him out wide and Gailey wasn't stupid enough to take him out of the slot. Even in limited preseason action, before his injury, Easley looked bad and got tossed to third string.

 

Doesn't mean that Gailey won't try to use their speed on the underneath routes and confusing patterns. But it's going to be more difficult to execute, because now the safeties will cheat, coordinators will pay attention to Chandler and it will not seem as easy as it was in KC that was missing Berry.

 

That has to be about the dumbest stat you could point to to prove your point. I'm insulted you would even suggest that this team struggled going deep because they never threw the ball long. In fact, I'm insulted that you'd even insinuate that The Bills struggled in ANY capacity to move the ball on Sunday.

 

You know, perhaps they didn't attempt a deep ball because (including end of game garbage time possessions but not including the end of half take a knee possession) Buffalo's average field position was the KC 45.

 

But don't let that kind of holistic thinking stop you.

 

The Bills are dumb, they shouldn't have traded Evans, the misused wounded decoy, it's all just a treadmill of mediocrity, all Fitz's 4TD games have been flukes, and so on.

[NoSaint]

 

The Bills are dumb, they shouldn't have traded Evans, the misused wounded decoy, it's all just a treadmill of mediocrity, all Fitz's 4TD games have been flukes, and so on.

 

i guess i dont understand why the issue is so black and white for you. either hes an all-pro first ballot hall of famer, or hes a decoy with a perpetually empty statline. hes a decent #1, or elite #2.

 

He has weaknesses, which happen to be things that are very important in the scheme chan wants, and he should shine in baltimore.

 

to say spiller fills his role, or a guy thats never played a regular season snap does seems far more ridiculous than it does to say hes a good player.

 

im not even a huge evans fan honestly - player or person. just trying to talk about what he brings to a team.

[DrDawkinstein]

i guess i dont understand why the issue is so black and white for you. either hes an all-pro first ballot hall of famer, or hes a decoy with a perpetually empty statline. hes a decent #1, or elite #2.

 

He has weaknesses, which happen to be things that are very important in the scheme chan wants, and he should shine in baltimore.

 

to say spiller fills his role, or a guy thats never played a regular season snap does seems far more ridiculous than it does to say hes a good player.

 

im not even a huge evans fan honestly - player or person. just trying to talk about what he brings to a team.

 

Probably because Big Cat is arguing against people that believe it was solely a money move, and that Evans is amazing, and a game-changer as a decoy, and the Bills are far worse without him, and that we cant go deep anymore and that totally hampered our offense last Sunday.

 

Probably because anyone who doesnt gnash their teeth and shake their fists at the front office is called "homer" and "Kool aid drinker" just for trying to bring up the fact that there is a middle road, as you suggest.

 

Evans is an "ok" player. He has much more value in Baltimore than Buffalo, and a 4th was a good trade for both teams.

 

There is no need to bash the front office for a move that has A LOT of different sound reasons behind it. Just like there is no need to say Evans sucks, which obviously isnt true either.

 

But that makes for a boring message board apparently.

[The Big Cat]

i guess i dont understand why the issue is so black and white for you. either hes an all-pro first ballot hall of famer, or hes a decoy with a perpetually empty statline. hes a decent #1, or elite #2.

 

He has weaknesses, which happen to be things that are very important in the scheme chan wants, and he should shine in baltimore.

 

to say spiller fills his role, or a guy thats never played a regular season snap does seems far more ridiculous than it does to say hes a good player.

 

im not even a huge evans fan honestly - player or person. just trying to talk about what he brings to a team.

 

What have I said to suggest this!? Better yet what HAVEN'T I said to suggest this? It's what I've been saying all along. I've given a million reasons why the Evans trade made sense. I've acknowledged that he was a good player. I've acknowledged that both sides benefited from this trade, but folks keep coming back...as if they have an agenda.

Edited September 14, 2011 by The Big Cat

[NoSaint]

Probably because Big Cat is arguing against people that believe it was solely a money move, and that Evans is amazing, and a game-changer as a decoy, and the Bills are far worse without him, and that we cant go deep anymore and that totally hampered our offense last Sunday.

 

Probably because anyone who doesnt gnash their teeth and shake their fists at the front office is called "homer" and "Kool aid drinker" just for trying to bring up the fact that there is a middle road, as you suggest.

 

Evans is an "ok" player. He has much more value in Baltimore than Buffalo, and a 4th was a good trade for both teams.

 

There is no need to bash the front office for a move that has A LOT of different sound reasons behind it. Just like there is no need to say Evans sucks, which obviously isnt true either.

 

But that makes for a boring message board apparently.

 

i guess ive read a lot more of the "we havent shown..... yet" type of statements on the other side, but perhaps i am wrong.

 

i think you kind of hit on the general consensus of most of us that are disagreeing with big cat

[DrDawkinstein]

i guess ive read a lot more of the "we havent shown..... yet" type of statements on the other side, but perhaps i am wrong.

 

i think you kind of hit on the general consensus of most of us that are disagreeing with big cat

 

Well, with only one game down, we havent had much of a chance to show anything yet...

 

except that our offense can go into the hardest stadium to play in, and hang 41 points on the road, on opening day.

 

but I understand that isnt a very big accomplishment to the people who are still pissed that we "only" got a 4th for Evans.

[NoSaint]

Oh for Pete's sake. YOU'VE MADE YOUR POINT. So riddle me this: how good do you think Lee Evans is? What NFL receivers would you compare him to? Why does he seem to be on an island when it comes to "great receiver who never produces any stats?" How is it that being a deep threat doesn't seem to hamstring the stats of guys like Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, DeSean Jackson, and so on...?

 

PLEASE, tell me. What makes Lee so special that he seems to be the lone exception to the rule as far as NFL starting receivers go. How great can the guy be if he produces no stats yet still has people like you convinced he's "great?"

 

Tell me who he compares to. Please.

 

 

i guess comments like "never produces any stats" lead me to believe that you dont think hes any good.... even if his stats are not up to par with the steve smith, andre johnson, and desean jacksons of the world, i would say that "he produces no stats" is what throws me off in the argument you are making about him being good but not great

[NoSaint]

Well, with only one game down, we havent had much of a chance to show anything yet...

 

except that our offense can go into the hardest stadium to play in, and hang 41 points on the road, on opening day.

 

but I understand that isnt a very big accomplishment to the people who are still pissed that we "only" got a 4th for Evans.

 

ugh. it was a good start. it was a good game. good teams do it week in and week out. being cautiously optimistic seems more reasonable than being blindly giddy.

[The Big Cat]

i guess ive read a lot more of the "we havent shown..... yet" type of statements on the other side, but perhaps i am wrong.

 

i think you kind of hit on the general consensus of most of us that are disagreeing with big cat

 

That's not a general "consensus." It's a general bitterness toward the Bills and the FO that simply can't be overcome. What you've just identified as a "general consensus" is nothing more than a series of disjointed gripes united under a banner of utter disdain, the likes of which is old hat and tiresome.

 

The negative Nancy's are just as valid as us Kool-aid drinkers in their fandom, but so often the gloomers go to great lengths to detatch themselves from reality, all for the sake of finding a cold dark place to B word.

 

It just gets old, man.

 

i guess comments like "never produces any stats" lead me to believe that you dont think hes any good.... even if his stats are not up to par with the steve smith, andre johnson, and desean jacksons of the world, i would say that "he produces no stats" is what throws me off in the argument you are making about him being good but not great

 

Fair enough, but his stats from the past TWO seasons indicate to me that he's not worthy of the kind of respect others here adorn him with.

[DrDawkinstein]

ugh. it was a good start. it was a good game. good teams do it week in and week out. being cautiously optimistic seems more reasonable than being blindly giddy.

 

agreed, but no one is being blindly giddy. on the flip side, there are a number of posters that are being stubbornly negative. Who are still so upset about the trade they are trying to say that since we never threw a pass more than 25 yards, we must be missing something. THEY are the ones not being reasonable, when they ignore the field position and success our offense had.

 

You would think putting 41 points on the board in Arrowhead that some of the haters would say "Hey, maybe we'll be ok". But nope. Still here trying to convince us why it was a bad trade.

Edited September 14, 2011 by DrDareustein

[thewildrabbit]

His worst "full" season is 44 REC/612 yards.

 

His worst season is 37 REC/578 yards. I'm not sure why injuries wouldn't matter -- they do.

 

His best seasons are also very similar to his worst ones. He has one huge outlier, whoopee.

 

No one is saying Lee Evans is not an NFL wide-out, the point that I am making is that he is not one who is worth keying double coverage on, and, in fact, teams do not for the most part. Pittsburgh did, and they lost, bad.

Yea, and what team did he play with all those years...who were his HC's, OC's & QB's Jauron-Turk Schonert-AV Pelt. His rookie year he did have Bledsoe, then JP, then TE, then Fitz.

 

I think the guy was under utilized while in Buffalo, I also think he will do better in Baltimore once he learns their offense with a better team around him, better QB, Line, TE's

 

I'm a big Lee Evans fan, unlike some other players all the kid did in Buffalo was keep quiet, and do his best regardless of the teams, coaches, QB's. A class act, I hope he fares well in Baltimore and gets a ring!

[The Big Cat]

Yea, and what team did he play with all those years...who were his HC's, OC's & QB's Jauron-Turk Schonert-AV Pelt. His rookie year he did have Bledsoe, then JP, then TE, then Fitz.

 

I think the guy was under utilized while in Buffalo, I also think he will do better in Baltimore once he learns their offense with a better team around him, better QB, Line, TE's

 

I'm a big Lee Evans fan, unlike some other players all the kid did in Buffalo was keep quiet, and do his best regardless of the teams, coaches, QB's. A class act, I hope he fares well in Baltimore and gets a ring!

 

I think you're spot on with your last line.

 

Unfortunately, I look at the career/resources Andre Johnson has had, then I look at the absolutely SICK numbers hes produced given similar circumstances in Houston and my pity for Lee Evans' potential wanes, considerably.