Something to consider about Ralph and the Bills

[spartacus]

With regard to the good things he's done (as per Kelly's post), I'd add that hiring Butler once Polian left was a good move. Donohoe was a good move in theory too, although of course it didn't work out. Since it didn't pan out, it's easy to criticize it as a bad move with 20/20 hindsight, but he did hire a good football with a proven track record of success and handed the keys to him. The point is that the instinct was right. The way the Butler firing went down was a complete debacle, however. Wilson should have simply paid the man what the market said he was worth. All Butler oversaw was a sterling track record as Polian's #2 and two losing seasons and five playoff appearances in his eight seasons as GM. The job he did in SD is proof of Butler's talent.

 

in 50 years of ownership, Ralph has gone outside the organization and hired a well regarded and well paid head coach just ONCE (Chuck Knox) and hired a well regarded and well paid general manager just ONCE (Donahoe)

 

 

Polian and Butler were internal promotions that Ralph lucked out on - but eventually fixed the success they brought by firing them.

 

That's an incredible record of failing to even try to win.

 

 

[marauderswr80]

And without fans spending money on his franchise he wouldn't have a team here.....ralph should thank the fans.....not us thanking him....

[NaPolian8693]

I don't consider it a tangent at all. I was originally responding to another poster who said he couldn't always have made more money in Buffalo, and since he is only a businessman, all he cares about is making money. Ralph could sell 64% of the team if he wanted, for well over $500 in cash, and still have total control over it the way he does now (if he divided it up so they couldn't outvote him. Or 49% for $375 million or whatever, and have the team move and make a killing.

 

IF of course, he is all about money.

 

Of course he is cheap at times. Of course he doesn't spend like we think he should or others would in his position. One of his biggest faults, IMO, is exactly what you said, about paying coaches and football men and front office people. And of course he has a great deal in Buffalo.

 

If he wanted to make a lot more money for himself, however, he could whenever he wanted.

 

You keep talking about selling portions of the team. That is not relevant, as was already pointed out to you.

 

The portion of the team he would sell for $X00 million is still worth that same amount of money if he doesn't choose to sell it. It's not like he is short on spending cash. By selling off a portion or not selling off a portion, his overall wealth doesn't really change either way. If you have $100 worth of gold and sell it for $100 cash, you didn't make money.

[K-9]

in 50 years of ownership, Ralph has gone outside the organization and hired a well regarded and well paid head coach just ONCE (Chuck Knox) and hired a well regarded and well paid general manager just ONCE (Donahoe)

 

 

Polian and Butler were internal promotions that Ralph lucked out on - but eventually fixed the success they brought by firing them.

 

That's an incredible record of failing to even try to win.

 

Wrong as usual. John Rauch and Saban II were well regarded, well paid hires from outside the organization.

 

Keep trying though. You're bound to hit on something factual.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Campy]

Buffalo's NFL team has provided me with so many great memories...

 

I don't mean 51-3, The Comeback, watching OJ gallop, seeing Joe Montana laid out, Bruce's dances or DT's Spiderman sleeves.

 

I mean hanging out with my brother and father in the parking lot before that late-80s Raiders game that at the time set a record for coldest game. I mean getting the Electric Company's autographs after an open practice at Rich. I mean hanging out before a preseason game in Baltimore with so many TBD/TSW people that we took over the bar. I mean the high-fives - and even the commiserating - with fellow Bills fans at my local Backers club.

 

I couldn't imagine my life without the Bills being a part of it. If they left tomorrow for anywhere other than Toronto, I'd be done with them and the NFL by extension. But I would get over it. After all, I've had myself some fun; and it's not like they owe me anything...

Edited August 26, 2011 by Campy

[dancing_joker]

I'm done giving Ralph Wilson credit for things that happened 40 years ago. I don't give a damn. You know what I care about? The future.

 

You think Cleveland fans cared about what Art Modell did for their city back in the early days of the NFL? Nope. The only thing they cared about was the team leaving.

[Trader]

We all know that much of the Bills failure as a franchise over the past 50+ years can be tied directly to Ralph Wilson. He's no Terry Pegula. There have been decades of bad memories, but also a few magical moments. Either way, the reason we are all here at TBD is because of Ralph Wilson. If it weren't for him Buffalo would have never been part of the NFL. I think I have proof of that.

 

All you young whippersnappers may not know that there was another Buffalo Bills pro football team before Mr. Wilson's Bills. From 1946 to 1949 there was the All America Football Conference or "AAFC". It was an 8-team league that rivaled the 10-team NFL. The Buffalo franchise started as the Bisons but later became the Buffalo Bills.

 

While the AAFC folded in 1949 it was strong enough that 3 teams were merged into the NFL: The Cleveland Browns, The San Francisco 49ers, and the Baltimore Colts. The Colts were added despite Buffalo being a better supported franchise:

 

 

 

In 1949 Buffalo had almost 600,000 people, it was a Top-15 metropolitan area, and it was at the peak of its post-WWII prosperity. If a league would ever want a team in Buffalo it would have been in the late 40's. And yet, the NFL shunned us.

 

 

You have made a valid point. I do not think the Buffalo area will get another major league franchise after the Bills leave. I do believe that they will leave. I have loved the Bills for over 50 years and I will miss them when they are gone... for about a month.. then I will find other thinks to do with myh cash and my time. The bottom line for me is if a sports team is not going to entertain me by competing for a championship than I don't need to waste my time or my money on them. That is exactly where I am with the Bills right now I do not see a committment to competing for a championship.

 

 

 

Buffalo, as a city, has long had a poor reputation. It was considered an unsophisticated town with lousy weather. And the NFL was not the only pro sports league to spurn us. Major League baseball had Buffalo penciled in for its 1969 expansion but Dodgers owner Walter O'Malley pushed that team to Montreal. Even the NHL shunned Buffalo in its 1966 expansion. (Though, oddly, the NBA gave us the Braves in the 1970's, a time when the city's decline was well under way.)

 

So you can see the NFL was never going to invite Buffalo into their club. The only way it happened is as a package deal merger with the AFL that our own Ralph Wilson negotiated.

 

So my question to you is it better to love the Bills with all it's warts than to never had the Bills at all?

 

PTR

[dave mcbride]

in 50 years of ownership, Ralph has gone outside the organization and hired a well regarded and well paid head coach just ONCE (Chuck Knox) and hired a well regarded and well paid general manager just ONCE (Donahoe)

 

 

Polian and Butler were internal promotions that Ralph lucked out on - but eventually fixed the success they brought by firing them.

 

That's an incredible record of failing to even try to win.

Like I said, the firing of Butler was a complete debacle. I honestly think that Butler wanted out after Wilson allegedly ordered Johnson to play against the Titans, but that's just speculation on my part. Regardless, Butler was a very, very good football man despite one bad draft (2000). It's worth noting that his next draft landed two likely hall of famers in the first two rounds (LT and Brees).

Edited August 26, 2011 by dave mcbride

[spartacus]

Wrong as usual. John Rauch and Saban II were well regarded, well paid hires from outside the organization.

 

Keep trying though. You're bound to hit on something factual.

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

that's what you've got

 

 

50 years and that's what you consider top flight hires at GM and coach

 

boy - you've got me

 

 

 

 

 

[K-9]

that's what you've got

 

 

50 years and that's what you consider top flight hires at GM and coach

 

boy - you've got me

 

Don't get lost in the fog of your own post. Your words were "well regarded, well paid"... "from outside the organization." They fit the criteria you said didn't exist.

 

It's not a question of "getting you." Just providing facts that you like to ignore.

 

Did Ralph run over your dog with his Taurus or something?

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BiggieScooby]

 

So my question to you is it better to love the Bills with all it's warts than to never had the Bills at all?

 

PTR

 

It's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. I see the parade leaving town after Ralph passes.

Edited August 26, 2011 by BiggieScooby

[benderbender]

Don't get lost in the fog of your own post. Your words were "well regarded, well paid"... "from outside the organization." They fit the criteria you said didn't exist.

 

It's not a question of "getting you." Just providing facts that you like to ignore.

 

Did Ralph run over your dog with his Taurus or something?

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

You mean his Dodge Scare-a-Van.

[NaPolian8693]

Did Ralph run over your dog with his Taurus or something?

 

You think that the anti-Ralph crowd has some personal vendetta against him?

 

Some people actually want the Bills to succeed. I know some fans are just happy to root for whatever junk product he puts out there, and don't really care if they win or lose - but not everyone is like that.

[SF Bills Fan]

Here is a great old article from Sports Illustrated in 1969. This proves that Buffalo has never gotten too much respect. For those of you that think there is a conspriacy against Buffalo, this article points to the fact that there is some truth to it. The part that talks about the NHL expansion should get your blood boiling. Buffalo should have been in the NHL well before 1970. Given the idiocy of the old hardline NHL guys, it is a miracle hockey has been successful and grown beyond the original 6. Anyway, great read here:

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1082018/index.htm

[BuffaloRebound]

Here is a great old article from Sports Illustrated in 1969. This proves that Buffalo has never gotten too much respect. For those of you that think there is a conspriacy against Buffalo, this article points to the fact that there is some truth to it. The part that talks about the NHL expansion should get your blood boiling. Buffalo should have been in the NHL well before 1970. Given the idiocy of the old hardline NHL guys, it is a miracle hockey has been successful and grown beyond the original 6. Anyway, great read here:

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1082018/index.htm

 

Thanks for the article. Funny how Wilson didn't have many good things to say about the city in 1969 either. A billion dollars and 42 years haven't done much to change his thinking. It's not that what Wilson says isn't true, you'd just figure a guy who's made that kind of money and got that kind of fan support could focus on the positives and be appreciative of the area.

[billsfreak]

You think that the anti-Ralph crowd has some personal vendetta against him?

 

Some people actually want the Bills to succeed. I know some fans are just happy to root for whatever junk product he puts out there, and don't really care if they win or lose - but not everyone is like that.

Just about all Bills fans want them to succeed, that is why they are Bills fans. It is just too bad that Ralph doesn't give a crap whether they succeed or not.

[SRQ_BillsFan]

It's a simple question and then again it's not. They had to have been here for us to realize we missed something.

 

 

My answer is yes, I'd rather have them and have enjoyed the last 40 years, not old enough for the rest. I enjoyed the winning years the most. We lost the superbowls but the ride was fun. Several of our loseing years we were still competetive and an upset or two changed the season outlook.

 

To my initial point does anyone miss the MLB team we never had

[Keukasmallies]

You can't compare two disparate things and expect convergence and similarity. From a business perspective, the Bills are truly successful--year after year. From a sports perspective, they suck--have and will for the foreseeable future.

[BillsfaninFl]

We all know that much of the Bills failure as a franchise over the past 50+ years can be tied directly to Ralph Wilson. He's no Terry Pegula. There have been decades of bad memories, but also a few magical moments. Either way, the reason we are all here at TBD is because of Ralph Wilson. If it weren't for him Buffalo would have never been part of the NFL. I think I have proof of that.

 

All you young whippersnappers may not know that there was another Buffalo Bills pro football team before Mr. Wilson's Bills. From 1946 to 1949 there was the All America Football Conference or "AAFC". It was an 8-team league that rivaled the 10-team NFL. The Buffalo franchise started as the Bisons but later became the Buffalo Bills.

 

While the AAFC folded in 1949 it was strong enough that 3 teams were merged into the NFL: The Cleveland Browns, The San Francisco 49ers, and the Baltimore Colts. The Colts were added despite Buffalo being a better supported franchise:

 

 

 

In 1949 Buffalo had almost 600,000 people, it was a Top-15 metropolitan area, and it was at the peak of its post-WWII prosperity. If a league would ever want a team in Buffalo it would have been in the late 40's. And yet, the NFL shunned us.

 

Buffalo, as a city, has long had a poor reputation. It was considered an unsophisticated town with lousy weather. And the NFL was not the only pro sports league to spurn us. Major League baseball had Buffalo penciled in for its 1969 expansion but Dodgers owner Walter O'Malley pushed that team to Montreal. Even the NHL shunned Buffalo in its 1966 expansion. (Though, oddly, the NBA gave us the Braves in the 1970's, a time when the city's decline was well under way.)

 

So you can see the NFL was never going to invite Buffalo into their club. The only way it happened is as a package deal merger with the AFL that our own Ralph Wilson negotiated.

 

So my question to you is it better to love the Bills with all it's warts than to never had the Bills at all?

 

PTR

 

I guess each of us has to answer that question for ourselves. IMO this is not an apples to apples comparison. Yes, as you imply, it is better to have loved and lost, than not to have loved at all. But the Bills are in the entertainment business. Not quite the same level as "is my life fulfilled." My view of entertainment, especially my favortie sports team, is that it should entertain me more often than not. The Bills have not even come close in the last decade. Therefore, I cannot agree with you.

 

I feel football should be fun to watch. Sometimes your team wins and sometimes your team loses, but they should be strong competitiors and win more than they lose most years to satisfy me. Forgive me for expecting a return on my investment (both time and money), but that is a reasonable expectation. It is not enough for me to have had bad entertainment for most years. Unlike some who have announced they are "out of here," I continue to be hopeful that I will be entertaioned by my favorite sports team. But I reserve the right to be unappreciative just because we have had a team all these years. Man, how low can our expectations go.

 

The last couple of years I keep reading comments after we swoon time and time again at the end of games, to the effect of "we should have won, and look what our record would be if we did." That's really sad.

[Chandler#81]

Promo Great history lesson. Any idea on who would have been owner of the franchise when the AAFC and NFL merged?

 

I thank Ralph for having the Bills in Buffalo but it is extremely hard to support him as an owner because out of the 50+ years at most 12 were good years ( 64-66) (74-75) (79-81) and 89 - 93. Right now I am displeased that he wont tell us succession plans and wont guarantee selling to an owner that will keep the team in Buffalo. My biggest fear is that after Ralph leaves this earth a higher bidder will move the team to Toronto or someplace else and will mark the end of EVER having NFL football in Buffalo.

 

I think we are seeing in pegula an owner that has a passion and is willing to put forward the $$$ to bring glory to a franchise hopefully that money can bring the right people to run it as well since the redskins and rangers have shown its not just money that matters.

 

 

Pretty high standards...

 

Other 'good years' with winning records: '62, '63, '73, '88, '95, '96, '99, '04

 

Other 'good years' with playoffs: '63, '88, '95, '96, '99

 

I want to make sure I have this right. Wilson sucks because we have only 21 winning seasons so far, but Pegula is great because he's accomplished nothing so far. OK

.