Kiper Mock v4.0

[PDaDdy]

But its ok for you guys to ignore the similarities in the career paths of Maybin and Quinn?

 

 

Already ignoring the rest of your posts as they are silly and juvenile attempts at the "I know you are but what am I" with Maybin and Quinn. Please elaborate on the vast number of similarities between Maybin and Quinn. This should be really fun.

Edited April 12, 2011 by PDaDdy

[thebandit27]

Im not saying you're comparison is "wrong" when you base it on their "last season played". But comparing their sophomore seasons is not "irrelevant" either. You can do both comparisons, and if you are going to do one, the other should be discussed as well.

 

Either way, neither is going to give you the answer that allows you to predict the future with 100% accuracy. We're all just chewing fat here until the draft, and until we see them on the field. And by then, these threads will be long forgotten.

 

I was pretty sure that's not what you meant Dank. I simply feel that evaluating the "what if's" is impractical. The reality is that one guy had 2 more years to hone his skills, and whether we like it or not, that will very likely have an affect on his play versus the other guy's.

 

Please please please tell me you see the flaws in this supposed logic? You are comparing the stats of a 19 year old sophomore to a 21 year old senior and ignore the rather incredibly obvious fact that at the same age Quinn was better??? Dude, give it a rest.

 

You've got to be kidding me man. You're not stupid, so I'm sure that you understand the facts of the matter. Yes, I'm comparing a 19 year old sophomore to a 21 year old senior, and I'm doing so because--again, this will probably sound repetitive--that's the last time we've seen meaningful football from either guy. How can you possibly think it's valid to just assume what Quinn would have done in his next 1 or 2 seasons? You can't. Whether you like it or not, Quinn is coming into this draft having last played as a red-shirt sophomore, and Miller is coming in having last played as a Senior. To go by any other logic is to make a giant leap of assumptive reasoning. Quinn had 11 sacks as a Sophomore, Miller had 3.5; fine. Let's go the other way then: Miller had 17 sacks as a Junior, Quinn had zero. Miller had 10 sacks as a Senior, Quinn had zero. Fair logic? Of course not, because it's completely irrelevant to evaluate players based on seasons that they didn't even play. You're a smart guy, just think about what you're saying.

 

So what do we squander all of the defensive talent? Lets use our biggest pick to address our biggest problem. That should be pretty easy for you to wrap your head around. There may be as many as 14 DL going in the first round. All of that "deep" talent you talk about will be exhausted by the second round and we will end up with an undersized pass rush specialist and the 15th or 16th best D lineman. Nice job. Glad you aren't GM.

 

So you think all of the defensive talent of this draft will be gone by the end of the first round? Wow. Guess it's my turn to be glad that you aren't a GM.

 

And for the record, I think the team will improve more if they can get a great pass rusher AND a good run stopper. I think that's more likely to happen this year by drafting a pass rusher in the first round and a defensive lineman in the 2nd. I've explained why, and it isn't that difficult to follow. If you don't agree, then tell me your plan...I'm interested.

[PDaDdy]

You've got to be kidding me man. You're not stupid, so I'm sure that you understand the facts of the matter. Yes, I'm comparing a 19 year old sophomore to a 21 year old senior, and I'm doing so because--again, this will probably sound repetitive--that's the last time we've seen meaningful football from either guy. How can you possibly think it's valid to just assume what Quinn would have done in his next 1 or 2 seasons? You can't. Whether you like it or not, Quinn is coming into this draft having last played as a red-shirt sophomore, and Miller is coming in having last played as a Senior. To go by any other logic is to make a giant leap of assumptive reasoning. Quinn had 11 sacks as a Sophomore, Miller had 3.5; fine. Let's go the other way then: Miller had 17 sacks as a Junior, Quinn had zero. Miller had 10 sacks as a Senior, Quinn had zero. Fair logic? Of course not, because it's completely irrelevant to evaluate players based on seasons that they didn't even play. You're a smart guy, just think about what you're saying.

 

WOW. Just....WOW. Won't waste my time on you anymore on this one. If you can't see the flaws of what you propose no amount of explanation will fix it. Either your just sticking to your guns to try to prove a point or you really aren't capable of understanding how wrong and silly those statements are. In any case it's america. People are free to believe what they want even if it is wrong.

 

 

So you think all of the defensive talent of this draft will be gone by the end of the first round? Wow. Guess it's my turn to be glad that you aren't a GM.

 

I see you have a reading comprehension problem as well. I said around 14 DL will be gone by the end of the first round. This means that we get the 15th best? How that equals no talent left in your eyes I don't understand but again you are welcome to your opinion I won't try to educate you.

 

And for the record, I think the team will improve more if they can get a great pass rusher AND a good run stopper. I think that's more likely to happen this year by drafting a pass rusher in the first round and a defensive lineman in the 2nd. I've explained why, and it isn't that difficult to follow. If you don't agree, then tell me your plan...I'm interested.

 

 

My plan is my signature. We have problems stopping the run. We also have problems opening holes on the offensive side of the ball and providing our QB enough time to really be dangerous. I'm not sure you will be able to see the logic of what I am proposing as you view things a bit differently than I but my draft would go a long way towards providing defensive run stuffing talent, create an environment of competition and provide depth to rotate in on defense.

 

For some additional help on offense I have proposed big bodied blockers that can help the offensive line and help make us a power running team. If you add the two together you will see a team designed to stop the run, get after the passer and impose our will on the opposition and run when WE want to. These are just players to address needs and hopefully produce the desired result.

 

For the even more astute you combine these fresh faces with what we have could provide the perfect environment for a young QB in a year or 2 to come in and only have to throw 20 passes a game for us to win.

[Ramius]

Already ignoring the rest of your posts as they are silly and juvenile attempts at the "I know you are but what am I" with Maybin and Quinn. Please elaborate on the vast number of similarities between Maybin and Quinn. This should be really fun.

 

Maybin was a 1 year wonder who racked up stats against weaker teams.

 

Quinn was a 1 year wonder who racked up stats against weaker teams.

 

Both played DE and are/would be expected to stand up as an OLB for a 3-4 NFL team (the Bills). Therefore, both players would need to change positions as a pro.

 

Thats quite simply what the numbers say. But please, feel free to refute this statement or tell me why drawing that conclusion isn't valid.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Ramius

[John from Riverside]

Please please please tell me you see the flaws in this supposed logic? You are comparing the stats of a 19 year old sophomore to a 21 year old senior and ignore the rather incredibly obvious fact that at the same age Quinn was better??? Dude, give it a rest.

 

Could you please explain to me how Quinn was better?

 

 

 

So what do we squander all of the defensive talent? Lets use our biggest pick to address our biggest problem. That should be pretty easy for you to wrap your head around. There may be as many as 14 DL going in the first round. All of that "deep" talent you talk about will be exhausted by the second round and we will end up with an undersized pass rush specialist and the 15th or 16th best D lineman. Nice job. Glad you aren't GM.

 

Its not squandering of defensive talent.....pass rush and the ability to cover a tight end are just as big of needs on this football team as run support. And a few more points on this.

 

a. The ability to stop the run has to do just as much with the down linemen in a 3-4 as it does with the linebackers

b. I believe that we start out the gate with BETTER run stopping DE's with Carrington in the lineup....also I fully expect Troup to also be much more NFL ready at his position.....he is putting on weight (correctly I may add) and was ALWAYS a big boy.....

c. Keep in mind that we were transitioning to a 3-4 after so many years in a 4-3 cover 2....there is going to be some growing pains

d. IMO the coaching on the defensive side of the ball is better with Dave Wannstad

e. And as previously mentioned.....this is a good year to draft defense....there are several good run stoppers to be had past the 1st round

f. I would also like to point out that we dont even know how Quinn is going to transition to the NFL.....while we bash Miller's unknowns the things that we take for granted on Quinn are ALSO complete unknowns....a year out of football and sacks not coming against the best competition

 

 

I am actually not against drafting Quinn....but he just seems to me to be a guy we look at in a trade down (and in this draft...I am HIGHLY in favor of a trade down because there is so much good defensive talent)

 

 

 

Many have stated that it may be unfair to attempt to predict Millers NFL transition based upon Maybins failures but there are some valid comparisons between the 2 and to ignore them shows bias or lack of observational skills.

 

Miller has additional qualities which I expect will make him much more successful than Maybin but that doesn't mean the other comparisons and traits are not valid. Just accept them and focus on their differences to make your point instead of ignoring their similarities.

[thebandit27]

WOW. Just....WOW. Won't waste my time on you anymore on this one. If you can't see the flaws of what you propose no amount of explanation will fix it. Either your just sticking to your guns to try to prove a point or you really aren't capable of understanding how wrong and silly those statements are. In any case it's america. People are free to believe what they want even if it is wrong.

 

What is your point then? Here's all I've read from you:

 

To me it's much much much more realistic to predict that Quinn would have continued to produce at a high level. Weak opponents this, weak conference that. Come on. He's obviously a talented player as is Miller and chopping him down doesn't make you look good.

 

Who said he wasn't talented? You sound as though you haven't even bothered to read my posts. This is a really, really easy a concept to understand: you can't base the evaluation of the two players on what you think would have happened. It's not prudent, and it doesn't put you in the best position to make a pick.

 

Also, I haven't once tried to chop Quinn down. As you would see if you bothered to read, I have repeatedly said that I think Quinn will be a good player, but I think he's a bigger risk than Miller, and I think Miller has at least equal upside.

 

I see you have a reading comprehension problem as well. I said around 14 DL will be gone by the end of the first round. This means that we get the 15th best? How that equals no talent left in your eyes I don't understand but again you are welcome to your opinion I won't try to educate you.

 

I'm not the one with the comprehension problem, as I once again have to explain somebody else's comments to them (sigh). You said:

 

So what do we squander all of the defensive talent? Lets use our biggest pick to address our biggest problem. That should be pretty easy for you to wrap your head around. There may be as many as 14 DL going in the first round. All of that "deep" talent you talk about will be exhausted by the second round

 

"Squandering all of the defensive talent" sort of sounds to me like you think Buffalo would be "squandering" (which is defined by Webster's as "to lose through activity or inaction") all of the defensive talent. You even went on to reinforce what you meant by saying that "All" of the talent will be exhausted by the second round. That would be how I came up with the idea that you think there won't be any talent left in the second round. If you can somehow twist yourself out of that one, then by all means, feel free to educate me.

 

My plan is my signature. We have problems stopping the run. We also have problems opening holes on the offensive side of the ball and providing our QB enough time to really be dangerous. I'm not sure you will be able to see the logic of what I am proposing as you view things a bit differently than I but my draft would go a long way towards providing defensive run stuffing talent, create an environment of competition and provide depth to rotate in on defense.

 

For some additional help on offense I have proposed big bodied blockers that can help the offensive line and help make us a power running team. If you add the two together you will see a team designed to stop the run, get after the passer and impose our will on the opposition and run when WE want to. These are just players to address needs and hopefully produce the desired result.

 

For the even more astute you combine these fresh faces with what we have could provide the perfect environment for a young QB in a year or 2 to come in and only have to throw 20 passes a game for us to win.

 

For all of your trumpeting about "spending our highest pick on our biggest need", your plan is incredibly hypocritical. Your plan is to draft a pass rusher with the 1st pick, a speed linebacker with the 2nd pick, and ignore the defensive line until the 3rd round? It sounds like you agree with my assessment of needs and value more than you'd like to let on.

[John from Riverside]

In the end....I have complete faith in Buddy Nix that we will draft correctly.....

 

- If he goes QB....I will understand and support it

- if he goes Von Miller and Quinn......I will like it a little more and support it

- If he finds a way to trade down even twice....and comes up with either Cam Jordon or JJ Watt I will be really happy and definately support it.......

 

If we find a way in his draft to have multiple 2nd round picks that can be used on QB, LB, OT......great!

[NewEra]

Im saying good bye to this thread. Too many posts today that make my head spin. Some people just font get it and never will.

 

I right the with you John, I feel the same as your last post.

[PDaDdy]

Maybin was a 1 year wonder who racked up stats against weaker teams.

 

Quinn was a 1 year wonder who racked up stats against weaker teams.

 

Both played DE and are/would be expected to stand up as an OLB for a 3-4 NFL team (the Bills). Therefore, both players would need to change positions as a pro.

 

Thats quite simply what the numbers say. But please, feel free to refute this statement or tell me why drawing that conclusion isn't valid.

 

 

MY GOD. SHEER GENIUS!!!! THE SIMILARITIES ARE SHOCKING!!!

[PDaDdy]

For all of your trumpeting about "spending our highest pick on our biggest need", your plan is incredibly hypocritical. Your plan is to draft a pass rusher with the 1st pick, a speed linebacker with the 2nd pick, and ignore the defensive line until the 3rd round? It sounds like you agree with my assessment of needs and value more than you'd like to let on.

 

Again, done with discussing Miller vs Quinn with you.

 

On to my plan for the draft. There is a lot of talent at the top of the draft and teams will potentially be drafting more D line/LB in the first round than ever before. Quinn was listed as a college DE. So...lets get the best 4-3 DE/ 3-4 LB in the draft instead of waiting to draft a guy like him at 34 when all that great depth AT THE TOP where it counts is depleted.

 

Miller guys want to make it all about pass rush which Quinn is obviously good at. In addition to that Quinn can play the run and his size will give him an advantage translating his game to the NFL imo. So no, the Quinn pick does not a hypocrite make.

 

Our problem is stopping the run. Our LB suck. A 3-4 defense needs 4 good LB sooooooo....my first two picks address DE/LB and LB. Where is the hypocrisy again? My 3rd pick gets a beefy dude that was reported to be a great run stuffer and is one of those man mountain type guys. All speculation of course but if Powe is the run stuffer he is supposed to be we now kick Kyle Williams out to DE with Carrington on the other end, Troup at the nose, a beefed up LB core and now we are ready to rock and roll. Powe becomes the back up for Troup and he would be used in short yardage, goal line, jumbo packages and substitution duty.

 

My first 3 picks directly address our biggest problems. Covering TEs, and we/Poz suck at it, is important too but that is still part of the passing game no? Let's stop the run first. There is a reason we had the second fewest passes thrown against us in the NFL last season

[Ramius]

MY GOD. SHEER GENIUS!!!! THE SIMILARITIES ARE SHOCKING!!!

 

Glad you've finally come around.

[PDaDdy]

Glad you've finally come around.

 

 

ROFLOL. I don't know which is more funny. The fact that you could actually think I would agree with such a silly single comparison or that you are actually attempting to avoid admission that your comparison is complete bs and all it is a smear tactic in support of Miller.

 

Either way. Thanks for the laughs.

[Ramius]

ROFLOL. I don't know which is more funny. The fact that you could actually think I would agree with such a silly single comparison or that you are actually attempting to avoid admission that your comparison is complete bs and all it is a smear tactic in support of Miller.

 

Either way. Thanks for the laughs.

 

So comparing 2 similar collegiate career paths (# of starts, production, positions) is bogus, but saying one player is like a different player at a different position because they have similar weights is legit?

[K-9]

ROFLOL. I don't know which is more funny. The fact that you could actually think I would agree with such a silly single comparison or that you are actually attempting to avoid admission that your comparison is complete bs and all it is a smear tactic in support of Miller.

 

Either way. Thanks for the laughs.

 

Nice to see you are staying in character. You just can't help yourself. Especially when you've had your ass handed to you seven ways to Sunday in this thread.

 

If I could just pick your brain for a second (not that it would take that long) but you have stated several times there are more similarities between Maybin and Miller other than size. I figured that since you insisted on hearing the other similarities between Maybin and Quinn, you wouldn't mind expanding on the other similarities between Maybin and Miller. If I could borrow from a previous post of yours, "Please elaborate on the vast number of similarities between Maybin and (Miller)... This should be really fun."

 

GO BILLS!!!

[San Jose Bills Fan]

So comparing 2 similar collegiate career paths (# of starts, production, positions) is bogus, but saying one player is like a different player at a different position because they have similar weights is legit?

PDaDdy can't or won't admit the factual truth.

 

Quinn's career curve is very similar to Aaron Maybin's.

 

Two seasons of participation…last played as redshirt sophomores. It's inarguable.

 

What if anything it actually means is up for question.

 

Most everyone here likes Quinn, myself included. But the facts are the facts.

 

 

[NewEra]

So comparing 2 similar collegiate career paths (# of starts, production, positions) is bogus, but saying one player is like a different player at a different position because they have similar weights is legit?

Why even bothering debating with this ignorant guy? He's as one sided as they come, refusing to see anyones point but his. No matter what you say, it won't penetrate his head. Save your energy, it's useless.

[DrDawkinstein]

PDaDdy can't or won't admit the factual truth.

 

Quinn's career curve is very similar to Aaron Maybin's.

 

Two seasons of participation…last played as redshirt sophomores. It's inarguable.

 

What if anything it actually means is up for question.

 

Most everyone here likes Quinn, myself included. But the facts are the facts.

 

You are correct. Quinn's "career" is similar to Maybin's in length and experience.

 

However, Miller's onfield game is similar to Maybin's, and thats where it matters most, IMO. It all comes down to on the field and how they play.

 

Personally, I think the undersized OLB who is a speed rusher and can't play the run, gets regularly blocked out by TEs, and who takes plays off on backend pursuit and then jumps on the pile... is a bigger risk and more similar to Maybin out of the two.

Edited April 12, 2011 by DrDankenstein

[John from Riverside]

You are correct. Quinn's "career" is similar to Maybin's in length and experience.

 

However, Miller's onfield game is similar to Maybin's, and thats where it matters most, IMO. It all comes down to on the field and how they play.

 

Personally, I think the undersized OLB who is a speed rusher and can't play the run, gets regularly blocked out by TEs, and who takes plays off on backend pursuit and then jumps on the pile... is a bigger risk and more similar to Maybin out of the two.

 

Actually.....when I look at the two on the field

 

- Aaron Maybin....willingly runs straight to a OT and thereby ALLOWS the OT to nutrilize him because he plays with poor leverage and lack of pass rush moves.....because that is what a DEFENSIVE END does.....they engage the OT

 

- Von Miller.......Von will actually work to avoid taking on a OT head on and uses much better leverage, hip bend, and subtile hand fighting to beat a OT's block......I also see a ball carrier even gets close to him he is gonna make that tackle.....Von is relentless and chases everthing down while Maybin runs after the play and piles on.......

 

BUT I have seen Von Miller get blocked by a Tight End.....now in those plays I dont know if he had outside contain responsibility....keep in mind that if you have outside contain responsibility on a play you are not supposed to go hell bent for the QB....you are supposed to keep things funneled to the middle of the field.

[DrDawkinstein]

Actually.....when I look at the two on the field

 

- Aaron Maybin....willingly runs straight to a OT and thereby ALLOWS the OT to nutrilize him because he plays with poor leverage and lack of pass rush moves.....because that is what a DEFENSIVE END does.....they engage the OT

 

- Von Miller.......Von will actually work to avoid taking on a OT head on and uses much better leverage, hip bend, and subtile hand fighting to beat a OT's block......I also see a ball carrier even gets close to him he is gonna make that tackle.....Von is relentless and chases everthing down while Maybin runs after the play and piles on.......

 

BUT I have seen Von Miller get blocked by a Tight End.....now in those plays I dont know if he had outside contain responsibility....keep in mind that if you have outside contain responsibility on a play you are not supposed to go hell bent for the QB....you are supposed to keep things funneled to the middle of the field.

 

First off, you are comparing Maybins PRO performance, with Miller's college performance. Not to take this thread down this road again, but that is not a valid comparison.

 

Secondly, the plays Im speaking of are from the Nebraska tape where they ran right at him, around him, and through him for first downs and big gains. They are there on the tape. While we can differ about our general opinions, we can not argue what is on the tape. Watch the Nebraska tape, lets talk about the run plays in the first 1:00 minute of the clip... (easiest place to find it is on the first page of the pinned thread)

 

He didnt need to rush the QB, he needed to shed his (college TE) block, and make a tackle. But didnt. Not once that Ive seen on those types of run plays.

 

I'm not questioning his outside pass rushing ability. Im questioning EVERYTHING else as he has not proven capable of any of it.

Edited April 12, 2011 by DrDankenstein

[K-9]

Actually.....when I look at the two on the field

 

- Aaron Maybin....willingly runs straight to a OT and thereby ALLOWS the OT to nutrilize him because he plays with poor leverage and lack of pass rush moves.....because that is what a DEFENSIVE END does.....they engage the OT

 

- Von Miller.......Von will actually work to avoid taking on a OT head on and uses much better leverage, hip bend, and subtile hand fighting to beat a OT's block......I also see a ball carrier even gets close to him he is gonna make that tackle.....Von is relentless and chases everthing down while Maybin runs after the play and piles on.......

 

BUT I have seen Von Miller get blocked by a Tight End.....now in those plays I dont know if he had outside contain responsibility....keep in mind that if you have outside contain responsibility on a play you are not supposed to go hell bent for the QB....you are supposed to keep things funneled to the middle of the field.

 

I once saw Joe Washington plant Lawrence Taylor on his ass. I'm not sure, but I don't THINK Taylor was ever labeled as a guy who couldn't beat little RBs one on one.

 

In those same videos where Miller is getting blocked by a TE, he is running stunts, beating OTs with his hands, setting an edge, etc.

 

GO BILLS!!!