d_wag Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Ellis, on the other hand, appears certain to get a long-term deal sometime after Pennington gets his. Ellis' deal is expected to be similar to the six-year contract recently signed by the Bears' Adewale Ogunleye: $20 million over the next three years, including $15 million in bonuses. http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/jet...ny-sports-print funny how the jets recognize young talent and lock it up, but bills fans don't expect donahoe to do the same thing and would rather watch our only legit pass rusher walk out the door..... every time one of these DE's signs another deal schobel's price just keeps getting higher and higher......TD has already wasted a ton of time on this already, and cost the bills dollars in the mean time if he does choose to resign him.....i just don't get it..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 If Schobel plays this year as good as Ellis and Ogunleye did last year, he will be worth similar $$$. Right now, IMO he's not there yet. TD's doing the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ch19079 Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 DE have been getting WAY to much money the past few years. with 11.5 sacks, shobel probuby wants alot. and with all our injuries, we need the money to sign some backups... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 According to a recent post here, the Bills are 1 million under the cap. If these figures are accurate, not only are we not extending a deal for either Schobel, Jennings or Williams, we won't be doing a whole lot of anything. That money will be needed for in-season moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 According to a recent post here, the Bills are 1 million under the cap. If these figures are accurate, not only are we not extending a deal for either Schobel, Jennings or Williams, we won't be doing a whole lot of anything. That money will be needed for in-season moves. 11550[/snapback] Sorry...forgot to login. This was me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Syracuse Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Who would you rather have, Schoebel or Jennings. That's likely the choice this offseason. TD is being prudent. Personally, I think Schoebel is solid but not exceptional. That's a lot of money for a "solid" DE. Teams actually have to gameplan around Ogunleye and Ellis. I doubt anyone is game planning around Schoebel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Who would you rather have, Schoebel or Jennings. That's likely the choice this offseason. TD is being prudent. Personally, I think Schoebel is solid but not exceptional. That's a lot of money for a "solid" DE. Teams actually have to gameplan around Ogunleye and Ellis. I doubt anyone is game planning around Schoebel. 11573[/snapback] I would prefer Jennings, but throwing a lot of money at him scares me because of his injury history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Isn't the knock against him, that he's not very good on containment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 If Schobel plays this year as good as Ellis and Ogunleye did last year,he will be worth similar $$$. Right now, IMO he's not there yet. TD's doing the right thing. 11544[/snapback] schobel's 3 year production: 6.5 - year 1 8.5 - year 2 11.5 - year 3 ellis' 4 year production: 8.5 - year 1 5.0 - year 2 4.0 - year 3 12.5 - year 4 schobel was every bit as good as ellis last year, and has had a better career to date then ellis has had.......i don't know why bills fans refuse to recognize the guy is a good young player who is on the rise..... you guys keep saying wait, wait, wait.......well, by the time schobel puts up the kind of year you guys think he should, he'll have priced himself out of our range and we'll stand no chance of keeping the guy....the closer he gets to free agency, the more attrative that becomes to him.......in the NFL, you need to be ahead of the game.......by sitting back, the bills are blowing their chance...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 Who would you rather have, Schoebel or Jennings. That's likely the choice this offseason. TD is being prudent. the bills have the choice?? hardly.....schobel and jennings have the choice, and the longer we wait before signing them, the more appealing free agency will be for them....... if you plan on signing one of the two, why not do it now when it will be CHEAPER??? waiting until later just drives up the price.....and at that point, the bills will be lucky to retain either...... sitting back and waiting gets you no where in this league..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 schobel's 3 year production: 6.5 - year 1 8.5 - year 2 11.5 - year 3 ellis' 4 year production: 8.5 - year 1 5.0 - year 2 4.0 - year 3 12.5 - year 4 schobel was every bit as good as ellis last year, and has had a better career to date then ellis has had 11599[/snapback] I disagree. Ellis is far superior to Schobel at stopping the run. Pass rush wise, they're about a draw. Last year Schobel got a lot of sacks at garbage time, while Ellis got a lot of sacks against Mike Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckner's Glove Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 the bills have the choice?? hardly.....schobel and jennings have the choice, and the longer we wait before signing them, the more appealing free agency will be for them....... if you plan on signing one of the two, why not do it now when it will be CHEAPER??? waiting until later just drives up the price.....and at that point, the bills will be lucky to retain either...... sitting back and waiting gets you no where in this league..... 11606[/snapback] What makes you think either of these players wants to sign now? Wouldn't you wait for the big pay day at the end of the season if you were in their position? If I recall correctly, TD tried to work deals for both of these guys in the offseason and neither wanted to extend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganesh Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 schobel's 3 year production: 6.5 - year 1 8.5 - year 2 11.5 - year 3 ellis' 4 year production: 8.5 - year 1 5.0 - year 2 4.0 - year 3 12.5 - year 4 schobel was every bit as good as ellis last year, and has had a better career to date then ellis has had.......i don't know why bills fans refuse to recognize the guy is a good young player who is on the rise..... you guys keep saying wait, wait, wait.......well, by the time schobel puts up the kind of year you guys think he should, he'll have priced himself out of our range and we'll stand no chance of keeping the guy....the closer he gets to free agency, the more attrative that becomes to him.......in the NFL, you need to be ahead of the game.......by sitting back, the bills are blowing their chance...... 11599[/snapback] You are asumming that sacks are everything about a DE....Schoebel hasn't been able to apply the big QB pressure. Quite a few of his sacks have been coverage sacks...He rarely gets double teamed. Also his game against the Run has been average to decent, not exceptional. He is a good player, but not a great player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 What makes you think either of these players wants to sign now? Wouldn't you wait for the big pay day at the end of the season if you were in their position? If I recall correctly, TD tried to work deals for both of these guys in the offseason and neither wanted to extend. 11652[/snapback] i chalk this up to another excuse for TD....... there are guys all over the league working out deals right now......those teams are finding a way to lock up their good young talent, so why can't we?? i just don't buy it.....you can't tell me schobel, jennings, and williams are ALL the problem here.....maybe one, possibly two, but not all 3...... nope, that arguement was made about peerless, same with winfield, and now your gonna use it on these 3 guys....i think it's obvious -- TD is cheap.......it's not the players who are holding out for free agency......it's TD not offering them fair market value...... like i said, other teams are locking up their key young players...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 You are asumming that sacks are everything about a DE....Schoebel hasn't been able to apply the big QB pressure. Quite a few of his sacks have been coverage sacks...He rarely gets double teamed. Also his game against the Run has beenaverage to decent, not exceptional. He is a good player, but not a great player. 11660[/snapback] Nice summary ganesh. Seattle is going to find out what it's like first hand to overspend for a GOOD DE i.e Wistrom. The question is, what is Plan B if the Bills decide to let AS hit the F/A market other than Marcus Jones??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 You are asumming that sacks are everything about a DE....Schoebel hasn't been able to apply the big QB pressure. Quite a few of his sacks have been coverage sacks...He rarely gets double teamed. Also his game against the Run has beenaverage to decent, not exceptional. He is a good player, but not a great player. 11660[/snapback] and ellis is a great player?? point is stats are used when talking contract, and in this case, schobel's agent will use his stats matched up against ellis to get a better deal....... TD can either pay fair market value for him, or let him walk.......seems to me he's gonna let him walk, because it would sure as hell be cheaper to sign him now then to wait until after he has another "good" season (personally, i think he'll have a "great" season)........ you guys all want a perfect player, and THEN you'll give him the big money after he's proven for 3 seasons he is the perfect player (and if his 2nd year is anything less then perfect, half of you will say to let him walk).......NFL doesn't work that way.....not successful teams anyway......they keep their good, young players around.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven in MD Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 What makes you think either of these players wants to sign now? Wouldn't you wait for the big pay day at the end of the season if you were in their position? If I recall correctly, TD tried to work deals for both of these guys in the offseason and neither wanted to extend. 11652[/snapback] The reason to sign now is to get the money NOW! Actually resigning Shoebel could lower his cap number for this year (though I doubt it would). The other reason is injury. Should any of the potential FA get injuried, their market value drops. I think TD likes to underpay for talent. Just look at his history in Pitt, he let MANY good young players go because he refused to pay them. In his defense, the owner was a cheap bastard in Pitt, something he does not have to deal with here in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 the bills have the choice?? hardly.....schobel and jennings have the choice, and the longer we wait before signing them, the more appealing free agency will be for them....... if you plan on signing one of the two, why not do it now when it will be CHEAPER??? waiting until later just drives up the price.....and at that point, the bills will be lucky to retain either...... sitting back and waiting gets you no where in this league..... 11606[/snapback] Funny, but with all this blustering on about TD lacking in forsight in not signing Schobel to this deal he so richly deserves, I haven't seen you actually explain how it is that he do this with about $1 Million left in cap space and a back-up QB to sign. Please, before calling TD cheap, why don't you propose how it is that he make this happen. Should he start back down the road of converting salaries to bonuses and creating dead cap space for the future? Or are there some expensive vets that he needs to release right now before the season starts, the savings from which he can sign Schobel? Inquiring minds want to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark VI Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 I disagree. Ellis is far superior to Schobel at stopping the run.Pass rush wise, they're about a draw. Last year Schobel got a lot of sacks at garbage time, while Ellis got a lot of sacks against Mike Williams. 11649[/snapback] Bullseye . Schobel also had twice as many sacks as Jason Taylor. Who would you rather have ? Schobel gets blown out on most run sweeps to his side of the field. Misleading stats = RJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 Funny, but with all this blustering on about TD lacking in forsight in not signing Schobel to this deal he so richly deserves, I haven't seen you actually explain how it is that he do this with about $1 Million left in cap space. Please, before calling TD cheap, why don't you propose how it is that he make this happen. Should he start back down the road of converting salaries to bonuses and creating dead cap space for the future? Or are there some expensive vets that he needs to release right now before the season starts, the savings from which he can sign Schobel? Inquiring minds want to know. 11677[/snapback] funny you should ask BB....... for starters, he shouldn't have released ruben before june 1st......i said it at the time and was shouted down with "we have lots of cap room, no worries" comments..........with that much dead money left on the contract, it made more sense to spread it out over two years OR keep ruben around for one more season to lower the dead cap hit in '05......... secondly, extensions to average players hasn't helped the cap.......for example, prioleau is a cap hit of 1.4 million this year.........dumb extension, made no sense, but TD did it anyway........ lastly, having a guy like teague counting almost 3 million on the cap is a huge error.........teague is an average C at best, and we're paying him like he's top 5 at the position.......another horrible move...... with ruben's release after june and prioleau and teague's cap hits not around, this team would have enough money to lock up all 3 big free agents for next year...... you can call it hindsight if you want, but i was against all of these moves at the time they happened.....they all look bad now...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven in MD Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Bullseye . Schobel also had twice as many sacks as Jason Taylor. Who would you rather have ? Schobel gets blown out on most run sweeps to his side of the field. Misleading stats = RJ 11680[/snapback] SCHOEBEL...I would never want Taylor or any other tainted Phish on the Bills! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 funny you should ask BB....... for starters, he shouldn't have released ruben before june 1st......i said it at the time and was shouted down with "we have lots of cap room, no worries" comments..........with that much dead money left on the contract, it made more sense to spread it out over two years OR keep ruben around for one more season to lower the dead cap hit in '05......... secondly, extensions to average players hasn't helped the cap.......for example, prioleau is a cap hit of 1.4 million this year.........dumb extension, made no sense, but TD did it anyway........ lastly, having a guy like teague counting almost 3 million on the cap is a huge error.........teague is an average C at best, and we're paying him like he's top 5 at the position.......another horrible move...... with ruben's release after june and prioleau and teague's cap hits not around, this team would have enough money to lock up all 3 big free agents for next year...... you can call it hindsight if you want, but i was against all of these moves at the time they happened.....they all look bad now...... 11688[/snapback] Dude, you need to go back to cap school! First, Ruben was due a $1.8 Million roster bonus had he not been released. According to Bills Daily and other reports, the Bills saved a total of $1.8 Million on the cap by releasing him before the bonus was due. That means that his $2.7 Million salary, which we also saved, was a wash with accelerated bonus. If that is true, then your suggested course of action would have us pay him $1.8 Million to release him after June 1, to reduce the acclerlated bonus impact to $900,000 in spreading out the remaining unamortized bonus over two years instead of taking the entire hit this year. Do you see where the error of your logic comes in. I know that you and lot of other people on this board think you are a better GM than TD, but if you can't see the problem here (i.e. pay $1.8 Million to defer $1.8 Million in accelerated bonus), you are definitely not GM material. So TD's move = save $1.8 Million and have no dead cap space next year or thereafter. Your way equals save $900,000 in cap space this year and eat $1.8 Million in dead cap space next year. So far, not so good! Oh, and if we'd kept Ruben another year, that would have meant a cap figure for him of about $5 Million for this year rather than $2.7 Million, so now we're going backwards by nearly $3 Million! WRT to Teague, regardless of whether you like him or not, there is no one else on the team who could take over for him and play as well (I like Tucker but there is no way he is ready to supplant Teague as the starter). So that means you would have to replace him with somebody. Now, there may have been a few centers out there who are better, but they would not likely be cheaper. But let's say you could have gotten a better replacement for cheaper. Best case you might have saved $1 Million and that would have been a brilliant coup to say the least. As for PP, he was extended back in 2002 for Chrisakes! If he hadn't been, we wouldn't have him now. So once again, you have to ask whether there is someone better out there we could have in his place who would also actually be cheaper. So once again, without proposing such a person (and by the way, PP may still be cut for someone cheaper), let's assume the best case, that you find a guy who makes the rookie min to replace him and you save $800,000 on PP. So far, best case scenario assumed, we've replaced Teague (hypothetically back before the bonus was due and paid) and he cuts PP in favor of say Jabari Greer. So we've saved $1.8 Million. And we'll put aside your first suggestion for saving money, because as you see, we would have actually lost $900,000 of that $1.8 Million in cap space we otherwise gained. OK, so now according to you we should have enough to sign all three of those guys right? OK so if we add the $1 Million in space we have now, that gives us a cap space savings of almost $3 Million based on you second and third suggestions. Now, the contract that was being discussed earlier in this thread for Schobel that includes a $15 Million signing bonus for four years, the cap hit for the bonus alone is $3.75 Million per year, without even considering salary. Even if Schobel gives us a hometown discount of say $12 Million in signing bonus, that leaves nothing for the other two guys. Look, we would need a minimum of $3 Million in cap space to re-sign Schobel or Jennings, and those would be well-below market kinds of deals (It will probably be closer to $4 Million a piece). Probably another $2 Million for Pregnant Pat. When you can show me how we can get another $7 Million in cap space (and I mean realistic scenarios now) then let me know. The only way it could have been done this year was to cut Bledsoe and try to go with some cheap back-up type guy until Losman was ready. Of course, back then we didn't have Losman, but that's beside the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Oh, and one mroe thing. That $1 Million we have now that I gratuitiously added is an amount that TD likes to keep around for, oh, little things like replacement QBs we need to sign in case say our #2 and #3 both go down. Or if a player gets cut who we can really use. So, given that we'll need to use a chunk of that $1 Million to bring in a back-up, I'd say you need to show me how to get at least $8 Million in additonal cap space so we could sign the three free agents to be. Hell, I'd like D-wag to show me where we get the $4 Million in space we'd need to just to sign Schobel to contract similar to the one those other two recently got. Or even the $3.5 Million to offer him a home team discount type contract! That is, aside from converting some other players' salary to bonus money for one year of it, and creating the potential for dead money again down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 If you cut him after June 1st, you're adding to the 05 cap, not reducing it. Right now his entire cap hit is/was taken in 04. After June 1st, half would be 04 and half 05. Considering you have three guys hitting free agency market in 05, it makes more sense to take the hit this year. You'd also need to look at the Bills total cap structure to make any determination of that, not base it one guy. funny you should ask BB....... for starters, he shouldn't have released ruben before june 1st......i said it at the time and was shouted down with "we have lots of cap room, no worries" comments..........with that much dead money left on the contract, it made more sense to spread it out over two years OR keep ruben around for one more season to lower the dead cap hit in '05......... 11688[/snapback] Also if TD is cheap as posters have stated, then why are we only 1 mil under cap? Cheap teams like Cinncy for years were 10 to 15 mil under. TD just isn't jumping to pay these guys right now. Considering hpw much Jennings has been nicked up it makes sense to wait on him. Williams is getting older, so unless he plays way above past years, his value may go down by waiting. The only one that may go up with another good year is Schobel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 Dude, you need to go back to cap school! First, Ruben was due a $1.8 Million roster bonus had he not been released. According to Bills Daily and other reports, the Bills saved a total of $1.8 Million on the cap by releasing him before the bonus was due. That means that his $2.7 Million salary, which we also saved, was a wash with accelerated bonus. If that is true, then your suggested course of action would have us pay him $1.8 Million to release him after June 1, to reduce the acclerlated bonus impact to $900,000 in spreading out the remaining unamortized bonus over two years instead of taking the entire hit this year. Do you see where the error of your logic comes in. I know that you and lot of other people on this board think you are a better GM than TD, but if you can't see the problem here (i.e. pay $1.8 Million to defer $1.8 Million in accelerated bonus), you are definitely not GM material. So TD's move = save $1.8 Million and have no dead cap space next year or thereafter. Your way equals save $900,000 in cap space this year and eat $1.8 Million in dead cap space next year. So far, not so good! Oh, and if we'd kept Ruben another year, that would have meant a cap figure for him of about $5 Million for this year rather than $2.7 Million, so now we're going backwards by nearly $3 Million! WRT to Teague, regardless of whether you like him or not, there is no one else on the team who could take over for him and play as well (I like Tucker but there is no way he is ready to supplant Teague as the starter). So that means you would have to replace him with somebody. Now, there may have been a few centers out there who are better, but they would not likely be cheaper. But let's say you could have gotten a better replacement for cheaper. Best case you might have saved $1 Million and that would have been a brilliant coup to say the least. As for PP, he was extended back in 2002 for Chrisakes! If he hadn't been, we wouldn't have him now. So once again, you have to ask whether there is someone better out there we could have in his place who would also actually be cheaper. So once again, without proposing such a person (and by the way, PP may still be cut for someone cheaper), let's assume the best case, that you find a guy who makes the rookie min to replace him and you save $800,000 on PP. So far, best case scenario assumed, we've replaced Teague (hypothetically back before the bonus was due and paid) and he cuts PP in favor of say Jabari Greer. So we've saved $1.8 Million. And we'll put aside your first suggestion for saving money, because as you see, we would have actually lost $900,000 of that $1.8 Million in cap space we otherwise gained. OK, so now according to you we should have enough to sign all three of those guys right? OK so if we add the $1 Million in space we have now, that gives us a cap space savings of almost $3 Million based on you second and third suggestions. Now, the contract that was being discussed earlier in this thread for Schobel that includes a $15 Million signing bonus for four years, the cap hit for the bonus alone is $3.75 Million per year, without even considering salary. Even if Schobel gives us a hometown discount of say $12 Million in signing bonus, that leaves nothing for the other two guys. Look, we would need a minimum of $3 Million in cap space to re-sign Schobel or Jennings, and those would be well-below market kinds of deals (It will probably be closer to $4 Million a piece). Probably another $2 Million for Pregnant Pat. When you can show me how we can get another $7 Million in cap space (and I mean realistic scenarios now) then let me know. The only way it could have been done this year was to cut Bledsoe and try to go with some cheap back-up type guy until Losman was ready. Of course, back then we didn't have Losman, but that's beside the point. 11766[/snapback] BB you missed a key point -- ruben was willing to work with the bills on his contract to ensure his return.........he even said he would take a pay cut.......all those numbers your throwing around don't mean jack because 1) it is quite possible he would have forfeited that roster bonus and 2) he would have reduced his salary.........keeping ruben around for another year would have been more cost effective then releasing him in the spring and absorbing the entire cap hit on the '04 books, when it is obvious we need that cap space now....... is ruben, even at this stage of his career, worse then our current cast of LG's? i seriously doubt it....... for teague, your picking up this discussion as "teague is on the roster, now do we handle it now".......back up -- teague shouldn't be on the roster because he has proven to be a bad signing......why? because he is overpaid........ for PP, again, he shouldn't be on the roster because it was a bad extension.........the fact that extension was in '02 has no bearing -- it was a bad extension then, and it still is now....... the only player of these 3 that TD inheriated was brown, and that was a horrible contract to have to deal with.....i think he could have done a better job with it, but TD wanted him off the books in '04....... but the other 2 are ALL on TD....he gave teague his deal, he extended prioleau's deal, and they both look like BAD CONTACTS now......you dispute these two are over-paid?? put the blame elsewhere if you want, but it's TD who signed these guys.......... 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BuffaloBob Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 BB you missed a key point -- ruben was willing to work with the bills on his contract to ensure his return.........he even said he would take a pay cut.......all those numbers your throwing around don't mean jack because 1) it is quite possible he would have forfeited that roster bonus and 2) he would have reduced his salary.........keeping ruben around for another year would have been more cost effective then releasing him in the spring and absorbing the entire cap hit on the '04 books, when it is obvious we need that cap space now....... First of all, I am not missing any points, key or otherwise. Stevo stated that we could have saved a lot of cap space by cutting Ruben after June 1 rather than before. This was completely incorrect, and those numbers I was "throwing around" are accurate. As for whether Ruben would have taken a significant pay cut, that is mere speculation. Moreover, how do you know that some reduction numbers weren't tossed around and TD did not find them to be sufficient? The fact that Ruben wasn't even starting for the Bears until an injury says a lot about his play. I prefer Larry Smith at his salary to Ruben and his possibly reduced but still high salary any day. And even if Ruben had been willing to blow off the entire $1.8 Million, which I do not recall him doing publicly before being released, he still would have counted $3.5 Million toward the cap, which doesn't do anything toward signing Schobel to a long-term deal. for teague, your picking up this discussion as "teague is on the roster, now do we handle it now".......back up -- No, I assumed that he was cut before his bonus came due. Before the bonus, I don't think he was overpaid. He signed a very friendly deal with a bonus that would kick in and make up for that this year. Moreover, once again this was in the context of how Steve was going to make enough room for signing the three free agents to be. I was merely pointing out that had TD been able to replace Teague BEFORE the roster bonus was paid with someone better, the best we could hope for was to save perhaps $1 Million on the cap. for PP, again, he shouldn't be on the roster because it was a bad extension.........the fact that extension was in '02 has no bearing -- it was a bad extension then, and it still is now....... I don't get this one. It actually was a very good extension because the bonus money was low. They paid him only $850,000 in bonus money, amortized over 4 years is about $210,000. That means that his cap hit for this year, if cut from the roster, would only be about $200,000, with $200,000 in dead cap space next year. If he shouldn't be on the roster, he's someone who is very easy to get rid of. That makes it a very good extension in my book. but the other 2 are ALL on TD....he gave teague his deal, he extended prioleau's deal, and they both look like BAD CONTACTS now......you dispute these two are over-paid?? put the blame elsewhere if you want, but it's TD who signed these guys.......... As I said, PP is a very good contract. They can get rid of him anytime and it will be a very low impact on the cap. As for Teague, I never said I thought it was a good contract, but I did point out that had we gotten rid of him and replaced with someone better, the savings would STILL not be enough to sign Schobel or Phat Pat for that matter. Bottom line is, TD saved money getting rid of Ruben, and I doubt he would have lowered his salary enough to make it worth keeping him anyway. TD can cut PP anytime he wants, or even leverage him for less salary if he wants to stay, and still save $800,000 to $1 Million cap space. He made the decision to stay with Teague, and while you can make the case he is overpaid, even had TT been cut and replaced for someone better, the best you could have hoped for saving this year is about $1 Million, mainly because a better candidate would not have been cheap. And even if you want to argue that he should never have been signed at all, he would have had to be replaced by a better player costing the same anyway. So where's the beef? Still nowhere near enough to get Schobel signed, let alone the other two guys, too! That was my point. It still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 So where's the beef? Still nowhere near enough to get Schobel signed, let alone the other two guys, too! That was my point. It still stands. 11866[/snapback] for the job teague does, we could have found a replacement in the draft at under 1 million per year in cap charge.......barring that, someone could have been found in free agency at around the same amount in terms of cap charge....3 million is 3 times to much for an average talent.....he was brought in and paid LT money and then asked to play C.......he's overpaid, bottom line.... forget how easy it would be to get rid of PP -- he's overpaid.......1.4 million for a backup safety makes no sense.......1 million (his cap charge last year) for a backup safety makes no sense.......bad contract, period......you disagree that he is overpaid?? i'm not "speculating" over brown again, but he said publically he would take a significant pay cut and wanted to work to stay a bill.......i think that makes more sense then taking the entire signing bonus amortization in '04........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 for the job teague does, we could have found a replacement in the draft at under 1 million per year in cap charge.......barring that, someone could have been found in free agency at around the same amount in terms of cap charge....3 million is 3 times to much for an average talent.....he was brought in and paid LT money and then asked to play C.......he's overpaid, bottom line....11881[/snapback] Yes, I think I said this very same thing regarding the cap effects of replacing him. Replacing him with someone at equal cap charge does nothing to get Schobel signed, which was I believe your original point to this thread, not that Teague is overpaid. Secondly, he was NOT signed to LT money! 4 Years; $10 Million isn't even RT money! Hell, that isn't even RG money LOL! But as I mentioned above, that is beside your original point. forget how easy it would be to get rid of PP -- he's overpaid.......1.4 million for a backup safety makes no sense.......1 million (his cap charge last year) for a backup safety makes no sense.......bad contract, period......you disagree that he is overpaid??11881[/snapback] Again, this is beside your original point. But if you insist on talking about current personnel now and whether they should be replaced by someone else, clearly if the Bills thought his pay was too high, they could dump him with virtually no repercussions. I think they have tried to bring in other safeties to compete and he remains on the roster. My point is that if the Bills thought he was paid too much, they could do something about it. They are not forced to keep him at his salary because the deal was bad. Must be they are happy to have him, otherwise they would cut him. i'm not "speculating" over brown again, but he said publically he would take a significant pay cut and wanted to work to stay a bill.......i think that makes more sense then taking the entire signing bonus amortization in '04........ 11881[/snapback] Again, you suggested he might be willing to forego the entire bonus. Is that not speculation? You have no idea what "significant" was by his definition and you have no idea whether they had discussions as to what each side thought would be significant. Even if Ruben had agreed to forego the entire bonus, he still would have made $2.7 Million and would have been a $3.6 Million cap hit with $1.8 Million of dead cap space pushed to the following season. This for a guy who couldn't even start for the Bears until an injury occurred? It may make sense to you, but I can at least see how reasonable minds could differ. And once again, totally beside your original "TD is a cheap bastard" point. Still doesn't get us money for signing Schobel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 Yes, I think I said this very same thing regarding the cap effects of replacing him. Replacing him with someone at equal cap charge does nothing to get Schobel signed, which was I believe your original point to this thread, not that Teague is overpaid. Secondly, he was NOT signed to LT money! 4 Years; $10 Million isn't even RT money! Hell, that isn't even RG money LOL! But as I mentioned above, that is beside your original point. Again, this is beside your original point. But if you insist on talking about current personnel now and whether they should be replaced by someone else, clearly if the Bills thought his pay was too high, they could dump him with virtually no repercussions. I think they have tried to bring in other safeties to compete and he remains on the roster. My point is that if the Bills thought he was paid too much, they could do something about it. They are not forced to keep him at his salary because the deal was bad. Must be they are happy to have him, otherwise they would cut him. Again, you suggested he might be willing to forego the entire bonus. Is that not speculation? You have no idea what "significant" was by his definition and you have no idea whether they had discussions as to what each side thought would be significant. Even if Ruben had agreed to forego the entire bonus, he still would have made $2.7 Million and would have been a $3.6 Million cap hit with $1.8 Million of dead cap space pushed to the following season. This for a guy who couldn't even start for the Bears until an injury occurred? It may make sense to you, but I can at least see how reasonable minds could differ. And once again, totally beside your original "TD is a cheap bastard" point. Still doesn't get us money for signing Schobel. 11917[/snapback] BB, you missed the point again buddy...... your initial question was "how do we create cap room from right now?" and i took it back a few years by questioning moves that got us in this current situation.......how to deal with the situation now is one discussion (and one i have fairly regularly)........what i'm talking about in this thread are some of the BAD CONTRACTS that got us where we are........ therefore, my point on teague stands...he is overpaid, and the reason he is overpaid is because TD gave him a contract and he hasn't performed up to it........ my point on PP stands....he is overpaid, and the reason he is overpaid is because TD gave him an extension and he hasn't performed up to it......... my point on brown stands.......keeping him this season, at a reduced cap charge (which he agreed to do) would have created more cap room IN 2004........if you don't want to believe brown would have taken a pay cut, that's your problem...... TD isn't flawless, and i don't understand why the excuse makers are more interested in covering up his mistakes with "sunk cost" logic when in fact he should be judged on what he has done since DAY 1 of his tenure........you can't say teague is overpaid now without pointing out that TD is the one that overpaid him......sorry, but that is a strike against TD, anyway you try to cut it........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Once again, you continue to deflect the original point, which you have not supported, by trying to make a different point which I did not raise. No, I wasn't pointing out how we could get more cap money, I was pointing out how Steve's solution to getting enough to sign the three FA2B would not get anywhere near the amount needed. And then you try to tell me that I'm missing the point! LOL! If you want to change your original point from "TD is a cheap bastard for not getting Schobel signed," to a "TD had made some questionable personnel decisions in my opinion and oh yeah, he's not perfect," go ahead. I can't say I blame you because the original point of this thread is impossible to support. But please don't tell me I'm missing the point. So, now you want to argue that Teague shouldn't be on the roster at all, fine. I guess that's perhaps more supportable than he was signed to LT money, which isn't close to being true. If you now want to argue that PP shouldn't be on the roster at all, fine. Again, not the original point and begs the question of who we should have in his place. But again, the deal TD signed him to permits complete flexibility in this regard and so the issue is really a matter of personnel choices. As for Ruben, I never said I didn't believe he would take a pay cut (now did I?), I only said you have no idea what that amount would have been. I even gave you the benefit of your speculation that he might have foregone the entire $1.8 Million bonus, and yet demonstrated how even with this 40% reduction in his compensation, that it still would not have been the overwhelming no-brainer you make it out to be, especially in view of his play. And the bottom line once again? None of these points you are arguing over lends one damn bit of support to your original post in this thread. It is you who are missing the point, but the funny thing is that it is your own point that you are missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 let's see BB....... i stated we should have got schobel (and others) locked up LONG AGO........the longer we wait, the more expensive it gets..... someone mentioned how the cap is tight now, that we don't have much room to work under it.......you supported that thread, and asked me to explain how to create cap room to get these deals done........ because i think it's too late to make room, i explained how we got in this situation by pointing out couple bad deals (teague and PP) that TD has signed and questioned the timing for the release of one the bad deals he took on (brown)......you, for some reason, defended the signing of teague and PP even though it is obvious they are overpaid...... i could care less if you get the point now or not, because it's obvious your so hell bent on apologizing for TD that your never gonna admit any error in judgement he makes...... just keep this in mind when schobel, jennings, and williams all walk out the door.......same story as price and winfield -- we could have had them at fair market prices and instead we let them test free agency, only to see them walk for huge contracts......everyone defended TD for not paying them huge contracts, while at the same time ignoring the fact he could have signed either in the preceding off-season at a MUCH cheaper cost....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 In your first post, you allude to TD being cheap, that this is why Schobel (and other Bills talent) hasn't been locked up. You allude to him having wasted time, but I don't see anything in terms of numbers to back up the "how to" nature of my question. SteveMD chimes in to tell me exactly how this space could have been made for all three of them. I simply point out how this is not so, by a damnsight. You then try to argue with me over how bad these three particular transactions are, and you NOW say that they are examples of how things could have been done differently which would have apparently resulted in an extension for Schobel and other BIlls talent long ago. None of those transactions support this point, whether now or long ago. And I have already demonstrated this a number of times. By your own admission, a vet center who was better than TT would be at least as much of a cap liability as Teague is, and I suspect more, as TT is only being paid an average of $2.5 Million per year, even with his bonus this year. Obviously, a wash at center on the cap makes no additional room for re-signing Schobel, now or long ago. Moreover, it is not clear to me that any of the centers available in the draft the past few years would be better than TT right now, or whether we should have given up the draft choice we made instead of the center. And even if you could make a dramatic case along these lines, a $2 Million savings is not going to get Schobel signed. As for PP, if not him, then who? At the time, he was our starting safety. Was there anyone else out there at the time who was better for the same money? For less? And now that he has been surpassed by Reese, if the Bills wanted a cheaper replacement, they could have one. But whether you had dumped him or if you had paid him less, how much cap space savings is that? At most $800,000. Still not enough. Once again, avoiding these "bad transactions" doesn't get Schobel extended even last year. As for Ruben, again any amount of salary reduction is speculative, but no matter what amount he took, it would not have been less than how we ended up, and again for a guy who can't start for the Bears this year without an injury to the first string guard. You claim that I am hell bent on apologizing for TD. I have supported these transations easily except for the personnel aspect. We could argue all day about personnel, and it would be nothin short of mental masturbation because neither of us has a job with an NFL team scouting players (and even if we did, it is still subjective at some level). My point for each of them is simply to say that they certainly don't support your original point. Defending the Ruben Brown cut is easy. We saved $1.8 Million this year with no future dead cap space. The alternative is to keep a second string guard for one more year, have $1.8 Million in dead cap space next year, and assuming the guy gives up his entire bonus, he STILL ADDS $900,000 to the cap rather than saviing us $1.8 Million! Even if he takes a $3.6 Million cut of his schediuled $4.5 Million to the Vet min), his impact on the cap is greater than Larry Smith's, and we STILL have to eat $1.8 Million the next year. And this DOES NOT help get Schobel extended once again. But oh yeah, I am apologizing for TD! Even if you're a Ruben Brown sentimentalist, you have to admit that what TD was completely justifiable if not the right thing to do in hindsight given Ruben's ;evel of play for the Bears. The fact of the matter is, you are so hell bent on raking TD, you are grasping at straws to justify your original positon. You don't even know if Schobel or Jennings would have been open to extensions last offseason, or even that they weren't approached and turned down reasonable and much cheaper extension offers! They were not hard up like Travis Henry was and thus were not in a position to be taken to the cleaners. The Price and Winfield references are laughable. Winfield had wanted out for at least two years. Price wanted to be his own man. They were both offered the chance to extend for MUCH cheaper, and they blew us off! Price was not worth what he got, and he was not worth what we would have had to pay him to make him stay. Nor was Winfield for that matter. And just the same as these other guys, you fail to even begin to suggest how the Bills should have spent cap dollars differently to afford Price and Winfield, let alone the three amigos coming up. In fact, the very mention of Price and Winfield fails to take into account the effect that such huge contracts (even if signed the year before) would have further restricted our ability to resign the next three. It's always easy to hand wave and criticize, but quite another to back it up. Apologize for TD? Hardly. I just like to see people who criticize back up their bitchin'. You still have not done this, not that you don't have a right to B word anyway, mind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_wag Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 well, to each his own....the moves speak for themselves...... i find it extremely curious that other teams don't have a problem keeping their young talent around but you like to "speculate" that our talent wants to leave.....bottom line -- put a fair offer in front of a player and you never know what will happen......according to you, winfield and price were just greedy......i disagree, i think they were lowballed when a little faith could have locked them up......... but like i said, if you want to apologize for TD, go for it....just get a few more ready for when schobel, jennings, and big pat all leave next off-season........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven in MD Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 well, to each his own....the moves speak for themselves...... i find it extremely curious that other teams don't have a problem keeping their young talent around but you like to "speculate" that our talent wants to leave.....bottom line -- put a fair offer in front of a player and you never know what will happen......according to you, winfield and price were just greedy......i disagree, i think they were lowballed when a little faith could have locked them up......... but like i said, if you want to apologize for TD, go for it....just get a few more ready for when schobel, jennings, and big pat all leave next off-season........ 12143[/snapback] Like I said...just look at TD's record in Pittsburgh! He will not resign his young talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 PP's contract is a value. He plays both safety positions and not hurt you at either. He can play back-up cornerback in a pinch, as he did in college and at SF, allowing us to keep one less (or a green UFA like Jabari Greer), and he plays well on special teams. PP is a very valuable reserve and well worth it, if not a bargain, at one million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis in NC Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Schobel is just an OK pass rusher, IMO. Not a guy who should get the big bucks the dominant PRs get. Last year's 11.5 sacks, was it? Did one come against Cinci when Kitna fell down? So Schobel touched him, got a sack. Did 3 of his sacks come against the Giants, who had already run for the bus when we played them? "Sacks" like those inflate his statistics, I believe. I wold keep him at a reasonable cost, but not at the usual overpayment pass rushers get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 well, to each his own....the moves speak for themselves...... 12143[/snapback] Yes they do, and they don't support your position as I've easily demonstrated umpteen times now in umpteen different ways! i find it extremely curious that other teams don't have a problem keeping their young talent around 12143[/snapback] Well, for as many examples of teams keeping some of their young talent around, I can find just as many where young talent had to be let go. But if you want to take a selective view of it, it can always support your point. Examples quickly off the top of my head: Justin MCcareins and Kearse from the Titans. but you like to "speculate" that our talent wants to leave..... 12143[/snapback] Easy to do when guys are quoted in the media. Price was squawking about being paid like a number 1, and if he had to go aomewhere else to get #1 billing and money so be it. Perhaps you've already forgotten about those. Winflield was asked on numerous occasions about his future and he NEVER said I'd like to be back or I hope to be back. and alluded on numerous occasions to wanting to test free agency. But you're right, only speculation on my part. bottom line -- put a fair offer in front of a player and you never know what will happen...... 12143[/snapback] How about an offer that reflects the players's actual value to the team, not what he and his agent think they can get from the highest bidder? And good job once again deflecting the task of actually supporting your argument with facts and numbers. It would take lot of work to go back, look at the Bills cap situation and actually demonstrate how these "fair" contracts would have been absorbed. according to you, winfield and price were just greedy......i disagree, i think they were lowballed when a little faith could have locked them up......... 12143[/snapback] Oh, and this isn't speculation? Once again, why don't you quote numbers? Why don't you tell us what would have been fair and than demonstrate how that fair squeezes into the cap. Then do some long-term analysis to determine impact on this year's cap and the ability to sign any of the next three? Because it's much easier to criticize based on speculation, that's why! but like i said, if you want to apologize for TD, go for it....just get a few more ready for when schobel, jennings, and big pat all leave next off-season........ 12143[/snapback] And like I said, if you want to keep on criticizing and bitching with nothing factual to back it up, go for it....and the good thing for you is that with that approach, you won't have to prepare at all if those other guys walk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven in MD Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 SteveMD chimes in to tell me exactly how this space could have been made for all three of them. I simply point out how this is not so, by a damnsight. 12121[/snapback] Just to clarify, I never had a plan to sign all 3. Actually, think that Schobel is the only one worth signing at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBob Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Just to clarify, I never had a plan to sign all 3. Actually, think that Schobel is the only one worth signing at this point. 12537[/snapback] Sorry Steve, I don't know why I thought I was responding to you originally regarding the "how we could get all three signed" points. It was D-Wag all the way. Geesh, I really need to pay closer attention. The points made still stand though. It's always easy to say we should have done this or that, not so easy to actually back it up or justify it. I've never said I thought TD was perfect, but I like to see some real support for the claims that he should have done something he didn't, or he shouldn't have done something he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Just to clarify, I never had a plan to sign all 3. Actually, think that Schobel is the only one worth signing at this point. 12537[/snapback] I agree with this. If Jennings has a good season this year, he will command in the neighborhood of 6 million dollars per season, with a hefty bonus. He is a nice player, but I dont see him as an Orlando Pace type who is worth this and more. Besides, he seems to want out. I agree with some of the negative statements about Schobel, but he is very fast, and he will probably get stronger. Also, he is now an experienced player at a position which seems to be hard to fill. By waiting until next year to re-sign Schobel, TD gains the advantage of having a better picture of his injury situation, but is admittedly taking a risk of losing him. Also, by waiting, TD serves not to alienate the other two FAs. I have faith in TD in his FA dealings. The drafts are another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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