Stl Bills Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 There are so many options at pick 3 that it makes my head spin some times but I really think one guy who gets overlooked is Cameron Jordan. With all the attention Dareus, Fairley, and Bowers get, Jordan arguably was the most impressive at the combine and he has great size, a giant wingspan, and huge hands. I know a lot of people's heads will explode if we passed up Fairley or Dareus and picked Jordan but I don't think its out of the realm of possibilities that he becomes the best D-lineman out of this great group. I'm a Fairley guy myself but I'm starting to warm up to the idea of taking Cameron Jordan at 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Jordan had a mediocre short shuttle time and a subpar vertical leap (allegedly, the two most important measures for DEs): Â http://www.footballsfuture.com/2011/combine/de.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl Bills Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 Jordan had a mediocre short shuttle time and a subpar vertical leap (allegedly, the two most important measures for DEs): Â http://www.footballsfuture.com/2011/combine/de.html Honestly there wasn't much separation all the guys who actually ran the shuttle (except for Clayborne and Watt who kicked everyone else's ass). His vertical leap was a lot better than Dareus's (who only jumped 27 inches). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Honestly there wasn't much separation all the guys who actually ran the shuttle (except for Clayborne and Watt who kicked everyone else's ass). His vertical leap was a lot better than Dareus's (who only jumped 27 inches). Dareus is a DT though, and I don't know what's the big measure there. As for Jordan's time, I'm less comparing him with other guys at the combine than with guys from previous years who had far better times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Honestly there wasn't much separation all the guys who actually ran the shuttle (except for Clayborne and Watt who kicked everyone else's ass). His vertical leap was a lot better than Dareus's (who only jumped 27 inches). I don't place much value in the shuttle or the vertical jump although I understand why they are measured and what they are supposed to indicate. Â In watching the tape, I'm very impressed with Cam Jordan. Looks like an excellent football player. Â But I'm not sure why you'd want to compare Jordan's vertical with Dareus'. Â Dareus is more of a DT while Jordan is a DE. Â Dareus measured 6'3" and 319 pounds. Jordan measured a shade over 6'4" and 287 pounds. Â They are completely different football players and body types. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl Bills Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 I don't place much value in the shuttle or the vertical jump although I understand why they are measured and what they are supposed to indicate. Â In watching the tape, I'm very impressed with Cam Jordan. Looks like an excellent football player. Â But I'm not sure why you'd want to compare Jordan's vertical with Dareus'. Â Dareus is more of a DT while Jordan is a DE. Â Dareus measured 6'3" and 319 pounds. Jordan measured a shade over 6'4" and 287 pounds. Â They are completely different football players and body types. They are not completely different for the fact that in our defense they would be playing the same position most of the time. Yes Dareus would be more versatile because he could also move inside but for the most part I would still project him to play DE in a 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Considering every year, no matter what, teams end up taking players that no one expected... I could see us taking Jordan at #3. And I like the kid, but I think it would be another case of the Bills out-thinking themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Jordan had a mediocre short shuttle time and a subpar vertical leap (allegedly, the two most important measures for DEs): Â http://www.footballsfuture.com/2011/combine/de.html So the guy the Bills should be targeting then is Adrian Clayborn? Â And next is JJ Watt (that one I can see)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 So the guy the Bills should be targeting then is Adrian Clayborn? Â And next is JJ Watt (that one I can see)? I'm not saying that, and obviously production on the field is huge. But there does seem to be a pretty solid correlation between NFL sack production from DEs and the short shuttle time. Obviously, there are exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbosrrgood Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 (edited) Combine #'s are just that...#'s. And they are always overblown. For WR's and CB's the 40 time has some bearing, but only some. Running a good 40 requires not only speed, but good technique as well. A player could be lighting fast on the field, but run a mediocre 40 due to poor "track" technique. How many times a player can bench press 225 doesn't translate to how he will use his strength and leverage on the field. These #'s are interesting (Paea with 49 bench press reps?!? Typo? Is that humanly possible?), but don't drastically change what I think of a player. Â There is always so much hype about what a player does at the combine, but it should be about what they did on the field. Jordan was an absolute monster on the field. He has great size and long arms. Regardless of what his 40 or shuttle time is, how many presses he does, how high he can jump...this guy will be good at the next level. Actually, I think he is likely to be a better pro player than Fairly (At DE anyway, Fairly could be a Warren Sapp type of 4-3 penetrating tackle). I'd wouldn't be disappointed if we took Jordan. Edited March 1, 2011 by Turbosrrgood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 I'm not saying that, and obviously production on the field is huge. But there does seem to be a pretty solid correlation between NFL sack production from DEs and the short shuttle time. Obviously, there are exceptions. Does Maybin fit into the exception category? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbosrrgood Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 So the guy the Bills should be targeting then is Adrian Clayborn? Â And next is JJ Watt (that one I can see)? Â Â Oddly enough these guys ran slow 40 times, to go with their relatively quick shuttle times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 The problem a 3-4 team faces taking a DE this high is return on the investment. KC took Tyson Jackson 3rd a few years ago, and while's he's OK, what kind of impact does a really good 3-4 DE make? Considering the salary, it's not worth it unless you're getting a Bruce Smith. Third is too high for a rush LB, and there aren't any top OT's going third either (not that Nix likes taking OT's). Â Nix/Gailey/Wannstedt know they don't have the horses to be a 34, nor can they rush the passer with their existing 43 DE's. And as much as Nix says they're drafting for a 34, they used 2 top 75 picks last year on players to fit that scheme. Taking a DE this high is using premium resources on a position they've theoretically already drafted for. Â This is not an anti-Cam Jordan thing as much as it is a staffing issue. It'd be nice if the Bills were a 4-3 defense and/or there was a QB worthy of the third pick. They might be the former, but there isn't any QB to fit the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbosrrgood Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 The problem a 3-4 team faces taking a DE this high is return on the investment. KC took Tyson Jackson 3rd a few years ago, and while's he's OK, what kind of impact does a really good 3-4 DE make? Considering the salary, it's not worth it unless you're getting a Bruce Smith. Third is too high for a rush LB, and there aren't any top OT's going third either (not that Nix likes taking OT's). Â Nix/Gailey/Wannstedt know they don't have the horses to be a 34, nor can they rush the passer with their existing 43 DE's. And as much as Nix says they're drafting for a 34, they used 2 top 75 picks last year on players to fit that scheme. Taking a DE this high is using premium resources on a position they've theoretically already drafted for. Â This is not an anti-Cam Jordan thing as much as it is a staffing issue. It'd be nice if the Bills were a 4-3 defense and/or there was a QB worthy of the third pick. They might be the former, but there isn't any QB to fit the latter. Â Ive seen the Tyson Jackson argument before. Last I checked the chiefs had a pretty good defense last year, and made the playoffs. True a 3-4 DE doesn't usually get a ton of glory and sacks, but that doesn't mean they are unimportant. The bottom line is the bills desperately need capable DE's and a NT to keep the opposing OL off of the LB's. Â Saying that the Bills shouldn't take a DE at 3 because KC took Tyson Jackson (who I'm sure the Bills would love right now anyway), Is like saying a team shouldn't ever draft a QB at 1 because of Jamarcus Russell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Ive seen the Tyson Jackson argument before. Last I checked the chiefs had a pretty good defense last year, and made the playoffs. True a 3-4 DE doesn't usually get a ton of glory and sacks, but that doesn't mean they are unimportant. The bottom line is the bills desperately need capable DE's and a NT to keep the opposing OL off of the LB's. Â Saying that the Bills shouldn't take a DE at 3 because KC took Tyson Jackson (who I'm sure the Bills would love right now anyway), Is like saying a team shouldn't ever draft a QB at 1 because of Jamarcus Russell... Â I used Tyson Jackson to illustrate a larger point: that top 5 picks should be spent on the marquee positions of QB, LT, and 43DE. Typically, a team is drafting this high because they're bad at all or 2 of these positions. This year, it's a deep draft for defensive lineman, but in a 34 scheme, the DE's are found more easily than a RDE in a 43. What's the difference taking the top 34DE over the 3rd best in a draft this deep at the position? Probably not much and so I'd prefer to use that 3rd on a harder to find position consistent with my team needs. Â My argument relates to getting the most impact out of the position. Teams don't draft LB's 3rd overall, because the likelihood of finding one later is higher whereas finding a franchise QB, top LT, or great RDE is generally in high demand and taken higher. Â Unfortunately, there aren't any top shelf LT's or Matt Ryan's to take at 3 this year. They're in no-man's land, which is why I can see them taking Gabbert considering how much the 3rd pick will get paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stl Bills Posted March 1, 2011 Author Share Posted March 1, 2011 I used Tyson Jackson to illustrate a larger point: that top 5 picks should be spent on the marquee positions of QB, LT, and 43DE. Typically, a team is drafting this high because they're bad at all or 2 of these positions. This year, it's a deep draft for defensive lineman, but in a 34 scheme, the DE's are found more easily than a RDE in a 43. What's the difference taking the top 34DE over the 3rd best in a draft this deep at the position? Probably not much and so I'd prefer to use that 3rd on a harder to find position consistent with my team needs. Â My argument relates to getting the most impact out of the position. Teams don't draft LB's 3rd overall, because the likelihood of finding one later is higher whereas finding a franchise QB, top LT, or great RDE is generally in high demand and taken higher. Â Unfortunately, there aren't any top shelf LT's or Matt Ryan's to take at 3 this year. They're in no-man's land, which is why I can see them taking Gabbert considering how much the 3rd pick will get paid. How can you say that 3 is too high for a rush linebacker but 4-3 DE is a marquee position. If there is a Demarcus Ware/Clay Mathews type of player in the draft (Miller? Quinn?), I'd be happy taking them at 3. In all honesty I'll be happy with any of the following Fairley, Dareus, Jordan, Quinn, Miller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Does Maybin fit into the exception category? No, his numbers weren't very good. He ran a 4.38. Schobel ran a 4.03! This is worth checking out: Â http://www.footballoutsiders.com/nfl-draft/2010/introducing-sackseer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLFan Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 No, his numbers weren't very good. He ran a 4.38. Schobel ran a 4.03! This is worth checking out: Â http://www.footballoutsiders.com/nfl-draft/2010/introducing-sackseer Very interesting - thanks for posting the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noma Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 hes a really good player, top 10-15 worthy. having said that, there are 3-5 better D line guys who will be on the board at 3. dareus, bowers, quinn/miller (though they would play olb for a 3-4) are all better looking prospects. if the bills decide to trade down with a team like san fran, i would jump at the shot at getting him at the 7 area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristocrat Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 would love to trade back to about 8-11 and take him there and pickup a nice 2nd rounder in the process where we take a right tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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