Anyone catch Thurman this morning?

[Red]

Philster, The most important aspect of the GM's responsibility is the area of personnel. You are correct Butler was mostly focused on scouting. Without a doubt that should be the most important responsibility of a GM. Doing a good job assessing talent is the key element in fielding a quality team on the field. How have the Bills scouting department done since the departure of Polian and Butler? How has Butler/A.J. Smith done in San Diego compared to how the Bills personnel staff have done since their departure? The Chargers are consistent playoff performers; the Bills are an embarrassment on the field.

 

Your point about Ralph was following normal contract negotiations with Butler doesn't hold water, at least to me. If one side of the negotiation is so out of line with the norm then there is little basis to negotiate over. Ralph Wilson, historically, is notorious for paying low salaries for his front office and coaching staff. Just look at the output? There shouldn't be any surprise why there has been a constant churning of coaches in this stumbling franchise.

 

Your point about the owner splitting duties of the GM is correct. Because of the complexity of the cap it is not unusal to have a cap expert negotiate and structure the contracts. Oberdorf is still handling that responsibility for the Bills. Most teams have a cap specialist (finance person) to either do the work or advise the GM on how to structure the contracts.

 

After John Butler left the Bills he described how intolerable it was to work for Ralph Wilson. The incessant interference and badgering over finances made his work environment oppressive. Whether Butler was fired or not is irrelevant. He wasn't going to continue to work for Wilson

 

The owner has a right to run his franchise any way he wants to. He is the boss. Who he hires and who he fires are his decisions. The Bills organization is a reflection of the boss. The organization by any standard is in shambles. The record of the team over the past decade has them ranked 29 out of 32. The caliber of play, disregarding wins and losses, is a disgrace.

 

You are correct.

 

If I recall, the reason used for Butler and Smith being pushed out was because Ralph was unhappy with the contract situations paid to players.

 

There were alot of contracts paid to players that were no longer with the team, that the Bills were still paying for all in the name of quality.

 

If that is true, you can't operate a business that way.

 

However, Butler and Smith have had a tremendous amount of success in San Diego. Similar to Polian in Indy. And isn't that something when compared to the Bills?

 

Those 2 teams (chargers and colts), are good despite who plays QB and who the head coach is. The Bills, are terrible no matter who the head coach is or who the QB is.

 

That my friends, reflects on the front office.

[apuszczalowski]

This is just so sad on so many different levels.

 

1. Why in the world does a professional GM call the daughter of the owner a name like that? It's one thing to think it, but it's quite another to actually voice the thought. For all of Polian's many fine qualities, this was just plain STUPID! There must have been several other ways to handle Ralph's daughter's unsolicited input besides calling her that.

 

2. Why did Ralph allow the situation to exist to begin with that would have his daughter agitating his GM in this way. Polian had his job to do and he shouldn't have had to deal with Linda. Now, from what I've heard, she was a fine scout, but Polian was still the decision maker and this fact should have been respected by all involved parties. Any final calls on a player pick should have been Polian's. For the situation to evolve to the point where he became so agitated as to call Linda a name like that, it must mean that she was insisting on one direction or another as opposed to merely providing her input and moving on. Being the owner's daughter certainly didn't qualify her as the decision maker.

 

3. It's sad that Ralph felt he had to side with his treasurer in a dispute. Did his treasurer ever nearly bring a Super Bowl championship to Buffalo? Polian damn near did and probably would have given the opportunity to stay on. Ralph has always been a "bottom-line" guy and this is yet one more illustration of that fact.

 

What an unfortunate situation all the way around. And the real sufferers are us Bills fans.

Polian could have raped and beaten Ralphs daughter every day they worked together and Bills fans would have blamed her for doing something that caused Polian to do it to her.

 

As for the comments about Ralph sidding with Littman cause he is greedy for more money, Littman was only doing his job trying to save the team money, just like Polian was just doing his job by bringing in the best players he can at whatever cost. And of course any owner will usually side first with his accounting guy, no one wants to spend more for stuff then they have to, and everyone wants to save money when they can

[apuszczalowski]

You are correct.

 

If I recall, the reason used for Butler and Smith being pushed out was because Ralph was unhappy with the contract situations paid to players.

 

There were alot of contracts paid to players that were no longer with the team, that the Bills were still paying for all in the name of quality.

 

If that is true, you can't operate a business that way.

 

However, Butler and Smith have had a tremendous amount of success in San Diego. Similar to Polian in Indy. And isn't that something when compared to the Bills?

 

Those 2 teams (chargers and colts), are good despite who plays QB and who the head coach is. The Bills, are terrible no matter who the head coach is or who the QB is.

 

That my friends, reflects on the front office.

I beg to differ, the Colts would not even be close to the same team as they have been without Manning, Their defence has been mediocre at best Polians entire tenure in Indy. Its been Manning and the offence carrying that team. As for the Chargers, they have been up and down with Butler and Smith

[spartacus]

This was told to me by a high ranking Buffalo News sports desk employee. Bill Polian was a lame duck going into 1992 season and made no effort to take care of the Wolford contract as he was disgusted with Ralph. When he was officially fired as GM after SB XXVII, Wolford and company had pretty much already decided to enter the FA market as it was only a month away. BP did a nice "sayonara" to Ralph, as did john Butler with the 2000 draft.

 

unless it's Larry Felser, what "insider" info would a newspaper reporter have as a scoop

 

the clowns covering the Bills have no inside info and have less understanding of the Bills than most posters on this board.

[BillsfaninFl]

No one really knows why. There are many rumors out there I think one was he wasn't getting along with Ralph's daughter. It was clearly a personal reason even Ralph has stated that it wasn't because of his job performance. Either way Polian was one of the major reasons for the dynasty of the late 80's early 90's and his absence is a major reason for the last 10 years of dreadfulness.

 

Polian built the expansion Panthers into a team that was one game away from the Super Bowl and has taken the Colts and made them into one of the class franchises in the NFL for over a decade (Including a Super Bowl win). Its been talked about way too much why this team has missed Polian but yeah no one really knows for sure why he was fired.

 

Take your pick:

 

A = Polian's star was rising. Time for a big pay raise or the door.

B = Friction with the money guy. Hmmmm... It is interesting to note that after Bill left we stopped paying high prices for keeping/acquiring star players.

C = The man was raising fan expectations to the point of ridiculous. Field a competitive team every year? Absurd!

[No QB - No Bueno]

I beg to differ, the Colts would not even be close to the same team as they have been without Manning, Their defence has been mediocre at best Polians entire tenure in Indy. Its been Manning and the offence carrying that team. As for the Chargers, they have been up and down with Butler and Smith

 

Imagine if the Bills played a team with as horrible an offense (and qb) as the Bears in the SB?

[Tcali]

On February 4, 1993, after the Bills had appeared in their 3rd straight Super Bowl, Bill Polian was fired as general manager. Polian wasn't fired because he wasn't doing a good job, he was fired because he didn't get along with treasurer, Jeff Littmann, for reasons unknown to all except those close to owner Ralph Wilson, Littmann and Polian himself.

 

In his closing press conference, Bill Polian said of the team that he built, "They're a very special group of men. Cherish them, you will not see their like again."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Polian

"....cherish them,you will not see their like again...." that is actually kinda funny...Polian knew Ralph very well it seems

[Tcali]

Bill Polian never "would not return Tom Condon's calls...thats bull ****"....what was true...and rings very ture to history...is Polian wanted to lock Wilford up before his contract expired....Ralph and Littman wished to let the contract play out and see what happens in free agency....Ralph (that f%%$ idiot) gets screwed by a slick move by the Colts who offered Wilford a contract the Bills could not match....and Ralph & Littman BEGGED the NFL to let them pay Wilford and keep him....but the NFL awarded Wilfords contract to Colts....POLIAN was right all along....and the same bumbling idiots who blewoff Rashad and Cousineau & Cribbs now lost Will Wolford at a critical time....

The loss of Wilford hurt the Bills just enough where we went from being 7 pt favorites in Superbowl to being decided underdog.....

 

I also asked Polian and he mentioned Littman killed a deal that would have sent DT Pierce Holt to Buffalo....

No Wilford...no Pierce Holt....no superbowl....but ralph can count his $$$$$

Pierce Holt was solid as a rock.Great player.

[Flbillsfan#1]

For one thing, it's called contract negotiations...you always offer low...the other guy wants high and you come to a compromise.

For another, there were aspects of a GM's job that Butler didn't do...like contract negotiations with free agents and league meetings. Butler wanted to be left to doing the personnel job but be paid like he was doing more.

Also, maybe the Chargers made an offer (for a LOT of Money) to Butler BEFORE Ralph made his offer. Who knows?

[Lori]

This was told to me by a high ranking Buffalo News sports desk employee. Bill Polian was a lame duck going into 1992 season and made no effort to take care of the Wolford contract as he was disgusted with Ralph. When he was officially fired as GM after SB XXVII, Wolford and company had pretty much already decided to enter the FA market as it was only a month away. BP did a nice "sayonara" to Ralph, as did john Butler with the 2000 draft.

Desker, not one of the beat writers?

 

Polian and Wolford did try to talk contract. Littman nixed it because of the $$$ involved. RCW sided with Littman. Per Relentless:

Feb. 6, 1993 -- Ralph Wilson admitted that his "personal and professional differences" with Bill Polian the last three years led to Polian's firing. Wilson said that the main reason was that Polian could not get along with Jeff Littman, treasurer of Wilson's Detroit-based company. "They didn't get along very well," Wilson said. "There was some friction there and I just thought it was time to make a change and restructure our front office in Buffalo. The change has nothing to do with football, losing the third straight Super Bowl or anything like that."

 

And Wolford's agent was Ralph Cindrich, not Tom Condon.

[Dennis in NC]

Will Wolford went to the Colts?

 

All this time, I thought that he went to the Steelers.

And the Colts offer was - what was it called - a poison pill?

 

Something in the contract that stipulated Wolford must be the highest paid OL or highest paid offensive player, something that the Bills just could not match because of other offensive salaries.

 

Does anyone know the full details of the Wolford deal?

 

Clever work by the Colts.

[Lori]

And the Colts offer was - what was it called - a poison pill?

 

Something in the contract that stipulated Wolford must be the highest paid OL or highest paid offensive player, something that the Bills just could not match because of other offensive salaries.

 

Does anyone know the full details of the Wolford deal?

 

Clever work by the Colts.

Technical term is "escalator clause," but yes, poison pill works too. Three years and $7.65 million to start, plus an assurance of being the highest-paid offensive player (beating Kelly's contract) in '93-94, and highest-paid non-QB (which probably would have been Bruce or Thurman) in '95. Colts had nothing comparable.

[Malazan]

Let's hope Kelly can pull an ownership group out of his butt

[billsfan89]

This is just so sad on so many different levels.

 

1. Why in the world does a professional GM call the daughter of the owner a name like that? It's one thing to think it, but it's quite another to actually voice the thought. For all of Polian's many fine qualities, this was just plain STUPID! There must have been several other ways to handle Ralph's daughter's unsolicited input besides calling her that.

 

2. Why did Ralph allow the situation to exist to begin with that would have his daughter agitating his GM in this way. Polian had his job to do and he shouldn't have had to deal with Linda. Now, from what I've heard, she was a fine scout, but Polian was still the decision maker and this fact should have been respected by all involved parties. Any final calls on a player pick should have been Polian's. For the situation to evolve to the point where he became so agitated as to call Linda a name like that, it must mean that she was insisting on one direction or another as opposed to merely providing her input and moving on. Being the owner's daughter certainly didn't qualify her as the decision maker.

 

3. It's sad that Ralph felt he had to side with his treasurer in a dispute. Did his treasurer ever nearly bring a Super Bowl championship to Buffalo? Polian damn near did and probably would have given the opportunity to stay on. Ralph has always been a "bottom-line" guy and this is yet one more illustration of that fact.

 

What an unfortunate situation all the way around. And the real sufferers are us Bills fans.

 

Why did Ralph allow his daughter to be involved so much with the team? You don't crap where you eat so to speak. Polian should have been left to run the team he was doing a good job. If Ralph's daughter wanted to have a say in the organization Ralph should have just gotten her a job far away from Polian who has a temper.

 

If I owned a football team I know enough to know I don't know squat. I wouldn't let my kids be involved with the team from a personnel stand point or in any major capacity.

 

I don't know the situation but to me it just seems like he put his daughter in a bad situation to be ridiculed by fans and to be in the line of fire so to speak. I mean I am not going to bash Ralph's daughter but some here will and some here will point to her as the reason Polian left and the reason the Bills suck. I wouldn't want to put my daughter in a situation to be made fun of and ridiculed by the public.

[GrudginglyPessimistic]

In terms of adding info to the demise of Polian and then Butler under Mr. Ralph, note should also be made of the ugly well publicized battle between Mr. Ralph and Wade Philips. Bum's kid deserved to be canned when he publicly gave up in his final season a couple of games before the Bills were mathematically eliminated (a particular travesty when Indy with the exact same record at the time Wade said no mas had the exact same record).

 

The problem in typical Mr. Ralph MO was that he canned Wade who had another year left on his contract and then tried to screw him out of the last year's payment with claims Wade quit. Everyone in the league told Mr. Ralph he should simply pay Wade, but Ralphie forced him to arbitration who rule in Wade-os favor.

 

Mr. Ralph deserves praise for keeping the Bills here when there were huge offers to go elsewhere, but along with this praise honestly needs to acknowledge the reality that as much blame as Jauron gets he is not responsible for about 2/3 of our being 0 for about a decade in making the playoffs.

 

Jauron cannot do it but the calls for his head may be sweet revenge but do not speak to solving the problems which confront this team.

[GrudginglyPessimistic]

For one thing, it's called contract negotiations...you always offer low...the other guy wants high and you come to a compromise.

For another, there were aspects of a GM's job that Butler didn't do...like contract negotiations with free agents and league meetings. Butler wanted to be left to doing the personnel job but be paid like he was doing more.

One does not ALWAYS offer low in the negotiation. If you wonder how some players are signed within an hour of the start of the FA signing period, this is not simply due to tampering or behind the scenes illegal negotiations there is a legit negotiating tactic often called the "take-bid" which is designed to figure out what a player is likely to get on the open market after negotiations and then make him an offer near or even slightly higher than what you think the player actual market value is.

 

You make this grand offer and then give the player a short time to sign it (often before he or his agent leave the room) and the player (or GM candidate in this case) decode whether to take the for sure bird in the hand or risk that and try to blow past his market value in the negotiation.

 

If Mr. Ralph really wanted Butler for sure or had read the market righr and saw SD might go after him then low-balling would be exactly the wrong negotiating tactic to take and doing a take out bid that takes SD put of the equation would have been the smarter move.

[Nanker]

Nice thread. Got nothing to add - as most was said already.

Kinda like finding your old High School yearbook in the attic and flipping through the pages.

Puts me in a melancholy mood.

[jester43]

Ralph Wilson, hall-of-famer. Everyone stand up and cheer.

[Lori]

Why did Ralph allow his daughter to be involved so much with the team? You don't crap where you eat so to speak. Polian should have been left to run the team he was doing a good job. If Ralph's daughter wanted to have a say in the organization Ralph should have just gotten her a job far away from Polian who has a temper.

 

If I owned a football team I know enough to know I don't know squat. I wouldn't let my kids be involved with the team from a personnel stand point or in any major capacity.

 

I don't know the situation but to me it just seems like he put his daughter in a bad situation to be ridiculed by fans and to be in the line of fire so to speak. I mean I am not going to bash Ralph's daughter but some here will and some here will point to her as the reason Polian left and the reason the Bills suck. I wouldn't want to put my daughter in a situation to be made fun of and ridiculed by the public.

FWIW, Bogdan was scouting for the team long before Polian got to Buffalo. In fact, she went to one particular game to look at a QB, but returned raving to anyone who would listen about a WR who played for the other team. Ended up talking the powers-that-be -- her dad, probably -- into drafting the kid.

 

That kid was Jerry Butler.

[Cotton Fitzsimmons]

Polian is a HOF GM. He is who he is. Ralph is who he is. Money is everything to him.

 

If you want to crown his ass, then crown his ass! Polian is who we thought he is! ... and we LET EM OFF THE HOOK!