MTBill

I think they love Jackson/Rudolph and keeping draft picks much more than they like Rosen/Mayfield/Allen and a decimated set of draft picks. I also think - the Media will kill them for it because the team did not do what THEY think is in the best interest. As will a segment of fans.

I will say this about the news today. At least he did this now, not AFTER the draft or even worse after pre-season. We have time to react to it. Perhaps this is why he agreed to a pay cut with a 1M bonus - so he could cash out. Now the question is whether he was planning this in advance.... what with firing his agent via Twitter too. I still appreciate the fact this comes now - while there is still time for the team to react, rather than when there is nothing which could be done about it and we'd have a real hole on the line.

You can't fix accuracy. Just like you can't coach brains or quickness. Also - I read a great line by one of the QB Analysts, a QBs ceiling is his college stats.

If this is your big shot at a paycheck, you really should be careful before you even get drafted. It is a catch-22 for them. Don't work out and it may hurt your draft status, do work out and you could blow a knee and be done before you are drafted. I know some of these players pay for insurance for this sort of thing, but not all of them do. If it were my kid who had this happen to him, I'd be sick to my stomach.

He made everything look easy.

Cookie was very outspoken on civil rights. He was the organizer of a boycott of the pro-bowl. I have to think that did not sit well with many of the Bill's fans at the time. He certainly had a rift with Ralph which is why he was not on the Wall of Fame while Ralph was alive. From Wikipedia: In an early civil rights victory for black athletes, Gilchrist led a successful boycott of New Orleans as the site of the 1965 American Football League All-Star game. He is the only athlete to turn down being enshrined into the Canadian Football Hall of Fame and Museum, because of what he described as racism and exploitation by management. Gilchrist frequently was at odds with team management. He told a reporter from the London Free Press that most of the problems he encountered were a result of his standing up for principles at a time when black athletes were expected to remain silent.[5][6]

Oh - and probably something else which belongs on the list.... Bills Beat Writers (insert name here). They end up being polarizing to fans who agree/disagree with them.

No disrespect to you BuffaloRush - but you used the word "History" in the title of the thread without the qualifier of "Recent" or "2018's most polarizing". I understand where you're coming from, but if you say in history, you will learn some history of who has been polarizing, not just recent history. EDIT - During the 80's/90's - Kelly was constantly debated on the old internet news groups. He was a jerk off the field, and he refused to sit in games he should have sat due to injury, which caused more harm than good to himself and the team. When I would talk with family still in Buffalo, his name would come up and tempers would flare. I think one of the things which makes for a "good" polarizing figure, they have to be entrenched for a while. Tyrod, while polarizing, only hung around for a few years. But debates went on for 7 years or more on many of these historical folks. That said, if Tyrod has success in Cleveland... well those fires will be stoked here.

Maybe the second coming of Lorax! Or just a depth signing.

I guess what I forget is that the Whaley discussion morphs into the Tyrod/EJ/Rex discussion and I sort of forget that Whaley was a big part of that. I didn't love or hate him, I just felt he was incompetent.

I agree with all these - even though some were before my time - those debates still rage in old timers. I almost listed Kelly in my list over Tyrod. I'd rather talk about players we loved most, to be fair.

This is the sort of op-ed piece which belongs as a poll. You'll learn who is most polarizing. That said - here's my stab at the same list. #1 - Flutie - Never do I remember so many hurt feelings by fans on this board as when the RJ vs. Flutie Debate was raging (figuratively and literally). #2 - John Butler - When he was GM, some folks thought he was incredible, others a giant turd. Then when he fled for the Chargers, it got worse. #3 - Ralph Wilson - Constantly viewed as a cheapskate and also as a savior for creating the team and keeping it in Buffalo. #4 - Chuck Knox I feel like maybe Ground Chuck - who many fans thought was way too conservative was the most polarizing coach, but maybe Saban should be here (before my time). #5 - Tyrod - You either loved or hated him. Those are the arguments I remember most. Whaley wasn't polarizing because he didn't have many supporters to my memory.

They need a LT - I suspect that is who they are moving up for... And will be looking to grab a QB - they draft one every season I think. Maybe Rudolph.

I agree with the tenor of your post - plugging in too many picks to get to #2 is really not worth it to me - you aren't moving up to #2 to get an established QB, it's a pipe dream and even if you get it right, you won't have the ability to surround them with the talent they need to succeed. On Jackson - if you wait too long (maybe even 12) - someone is going to jump ahead of the Bills, knowing they are likely to draft him. I still think how this plays out is they have grades on players. I think the trade up targets are #4 and #6 - and those will be a hell of a lot cheaper then #2 would be. The Giants got a ton of power when the Jets moved up - and overpaid by all standards. I say let the chips fall where they do, and move up to a more reasonable spot to grab a QB when the price is right. This could be the 1983 QB draft - or it could be a whole lot of flops. I would so much rather not have to move up.

So - Mora accused him of being intellectual - and of having the millennial disease of needing to know "why?". Seems to me that Rosen's response was exactly what it should have been. Why? I sort of take Mora's comments another way. Is what he was saying more about Josh, or more about the Cleveland coaching staff? Is he saying they don't have the tools to intellectually challenge him? That they are going to be unable to get him to focus on Football?

I just measured my own hand size - what I found interesting is that my right hand is 1/4" smaller than my left. and I'm right handed. But as a kid I lost a tiny amount of skin on the outside of my pinky - not 1/4" worth, but maybe that impacted it somehow. Just wonder how normal that is. I heard somewhere that 9 1/2" is the magic number for NFL players. If you don't have at least 9 1/2" hands, you don't do as well, and not just at the QB position. (link below) I suppose hand size really matters as it pertains to gripping and holding on to the ball. The official NFL ball is 22" in circumference at the center and 11" long, Hand size has to sort of indicate where your hand is most comfortable gripping the ball, and the larger hands get further to the middle of the ball - sort of makes sense there would be a magic # - especially for a QB. Maybe you even underinflate a ball to compensate <Cough, Brady>. http://thesportsquotient.com/nfl/2016/3/26/does-a-quarterbacks-hand-size-really-predict-success Also - interesting that Hue Jackson places value on hand size, and Goff is an outlier with 9" hands and seemingly having success - maybe that's why he passed on him. EDIT - Update on Brady - that post says they aren't known but are 'enormous' - but this site claims they are under 9 1/2" at 9.38" (9 3/8) http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=4732

The more I read, the more I like Jackson. I really think the Bills may target pick #4 if there is at least 1 of their top guys available. I think moving to 2 is insanely expensive and Beane isn't going to pay what the Giants will demand. One of the other aspects that suck is we have 2 1st rounders - so every trade partner is going to expect both of those at the onset - even though that totally exceeds most trade value schemes for picks other than #1. Of course - that does perhaps mitigate the other picks which might be otherwise thrown in. The Jests so overpaid for #3 that is crazy. I think if 2 of their top 3 QBs are still available at 4 - they maybe gamble and try to convince the Colts to move down again - though could be tough. If only we still had a player they needed for trade - I think our dead cap space issue will haunt us as far as other trades go.

#TrustTheProcess I won't predict a number of wins - but I sort of expect a regression - although maybe we won't get hammered with WR/TE(Clay) injuries this season - and we'll upgrade the OL. We did upgrade the DL. On the other hand, I do trust the process and would not be shocked if they do improve in year 2. I guess the other wildcard is the change at OC.

Interestingly - the score on Peterman - which says to me he's a backup at best. Nathan Peterman, Pittsburgh (74) Mean Projection in Years 3-5: -245 DYAR Bust (< 500 DYAR) 71.6% Adequate Starter (500-1499 DYAR) 21.3% Upper Tier (1500-2500 DYAR) 7.0% Elite (>2500 DYAR) 0.2% Dobbs won the Tennessee job over Nathan Peterman, who then transferred and got two years as a starter at Pitt. Last year, he led these eight prospects with 10.1 adjusted passing yards per attempt (passing yards with a 20-yard bonus for touchdowns and a 45-yard penalty for interceptions). However, he did this against the easiest schedule of any of these eight prospects, ranked 59th in FBS, and with the benefit of an offensive line that's likely to get two linemen drafted in the first four rounds (guard Dorian Johnson and tackle Adam Bisnowaty). Combine these facts with a lower expected draft position, and QBASE is very pessimistic about his chances for NFL success. ------------------------------------------------------- Reading what the data says about Jackson makes me really hope he falls to us at 12 and we don't have to trade up at all... but who knows. And sort of scratch your head as to why he's mostly panned by the media. I suspect at least part of this is his "worry" that teams want to draft him as something other than a QB. Certainly the way he's being handled by his Mom does not seem to be helping his case.

Good Call - I never realized that. Thanks for the education.

After further thought - I also think part of this is they are an unquestioned leader. Dan Marino wasn't looking over his shoulder to see who was behind him on the depth chart. I'd argue Kelly was not quite meeting this. He was successful by many counts - but even during the SB run - people questioned him and his commitment and many wanted to see Frank get his shot. He sort of brought it on himself at times, refusing to be benched - perhaps due to a concern Frank would be successful. Part of the lack of total faith may have been the injuries, part of it was probably the fact he shunned Buffalo when he was drafted and really came back only because the USFL collapsed, part of it was we had the "bickering Bills", his 'reputation' around town at the time didn't help either. The Abyss at the position in Buffalo after he left - only strengthened his legacy. I do think he was a Franchise QB. He was surrounded by an amazing cast of players and coaches. You sort of wonder though - was he making them better, or were they making him better? There is a symbiotic relationship there. Without Jerry Rice, how much of what Joe Montana achieved would have been achieved and by the same count Steve Young?

I really do not expect this team to make the playoffs this season. Regardless of who is QB. We have so many holes to fill. This is why I also don't want to spend next years #1 to move up - that would really set us back since I suspect we'll have a high pick in '19. I HOPE AJM has something we need. I would much rather go 4-12 than continue the path of 8-8, 7-9, 9-7 every year and get middling picks. That is another reason for where we're at. Many of these teams who had huge resurgences - actually had really bad years and got top 12 picks. When we had those - we wasted them in the past 20 years. (Mike Williams, Whitner, Lynch, McKelvin, Maybin, Spiller, Dareus, Gilmore, and Watkins). Yes, some of those guys had some success - but often elsewhere. Sammy of course is most glaring because he cost us TWO first round picks. Looking at our 1st round picks in this time - we missed way more than I thought... No wonder there was a drought. In the past 10 years (2007-2017 - we have exactly 3 1st round selections who are still on the roster, which includes Eric Wood).

I think the one thing your thread really points out - to be successful you need more than a QB. Plenty of those QBs were very good 'Franchise' QBs, but they didn't have something - whether that is coaches, injuries, skill players, defenses, or ST (how many of those guys were 1 FG away from something more?) And - there have been others who while not 1st round guys who are obviously Franchise QBs (Brady, Brees, Warner, Montana, Young, Favre come to mind without straining.) I agree with your definition - someone who will secure the position for more than 5 years and have at least moderate sustained success. Maybe now that you have a definition - make a list of all of them since 2000 and when they were drafted - what did they look like coming out of college? Maybe that helps evaluate this years crop. And if you extend that further - which 1st round QBs failed - were there warning signs?

It's the offseason - and this is a QB thread involving a horrible OT, a former QB for the Bills, and a current QB who may or may not be a passable backup. What would you expect from TSW?

Rico had a voice too - and I don't know that they already knew he was not going to be on the sidelines in '18. They were ready to move on from TT before the season, until he redid his contract. His best chance to start in the league was in Buffalo - and he knew it. Fast forward 12 months - TT got another starting gig - and we got the 1st pick of the 3rd round. We're left with NP - who better have made huge strides this offseason if he's going to be competing for a starting role. I suspect AJM is as good as penciled in for 2018 - and we'll see how the draft plays out. AJM may be a paper tiger, we won't know. That's the part I sort of hate about the league year - you'd like to think that after the FA period starts and before the draft, you'd get an opportunity to get your team together and at least see what you have pre-draft as far as how the pieces work together.