JGMcD2

Milano has played over 13 games in every season outside of this one? If he comes back this week he will have a chance at 10 games this season. Which would mean at least 10 in everyone season he’s been in the NFL.

Sure. We’ve brought in 22 former Panthers (not all of them were there with McDermott/Beane) I started putting the numbers together. 17 former Jets, 16 former Dolphins, 15 former Bengals, 14 former Ravens and Giants. It’s the most from a single team, we’ve brought in, but it’s hardly inordinate. I’m sure if I start looking at other teams there will be high marks. I guess what you’re not recognizing with the camp trash is about 12 of those former Panthers were competing with camp trash for a roster spot, and the next season when we found an upgrade they were let go...

The response is most likely going to be something about the level of competition, without citing the level of competition those coaches faced over the periods of time you presented. There will also be some thing about the numbers of blowouts for and against. Something about being super conservative and not managing the game well. Someone might sneak something in there about McDermott’s successful challenge% Solid post overall... puts things in perspective across the league and McDermott against his peers. Solid post. One correction, they actually lost to the 2-8 Bengals by 11 points.

I'm sorry he doesn't inspire you. He's really bad at the whole pumping the media and the fans up, definitely a bad line on his resume...we all know the coaches that do this well tend to win more games. It's such a shame he connects with the players and motivates them. I hate when players love their coach and are winning footballs games. I watched him get outfoxed this year by so many great coaches, the likes of Sean McVay, Bill Belichick, Pete Carroll and Jon Gruden. I really wish he could have beat those guys this year, because if he had we'd be around 1st place in the division! Yeah, I mean they've pretty openly said this is their goal. They want sustainable success... because the playoffs are a crapshoot... the more often you are there the better chance you have of winning it all.

I think he’s just saying that even the elite players make mistakes... so the non-elite guys are definitely going to make mistakes. Awesome you watch the film (seriously, I’m not being sarcastic... it’s something I think more should do) who are the 20+ safeties above Poyer based on film?

That’s exactly what I am saying... folks like BADOL is saying the Bills have brought in an inordinate amount of Panthers... by definition that means unusually or disproportionately large; excessive. I’m making an attempt here to find out if that is true, but you can’t just it’s inordinate with no comparison either. Then it’s just because you said so. It’s not an easy process to scrape everything together to figure it out in comparison to all other teams. The point of that is that most of the Panthers players brought in have been back end of the roster players... competing with those UDFA and depth signings for the final few spots on the roster. The majority of them have been depth signings... that some how have been major a disappointment to BADOL. It’s just a loaded statement. “Of the 22 Panthers McBeane have brought in, only 2 have panned out.” Well for the average reader they go, “what, that’s so bad. Those guys are idiots.” But 17 of those guys have just been depth, they’ve come in and out like camp fodder. 5 have really seriously been expected to start. That’s the point. I probably didn’t phrase my analysis properly but at least it’s a step towards actually conceptualizing the word inordinate and not just saying it and believing it’s true.

Why do they have to have at least 1 year of experience? I’m not exactly sure why that’s relevant? And most camp signings have been around for 1+ years? Depth can be in he league for 0 years or 10 years... I didn’t realize it had to be 1 year as declared by BADOLBILZ. How do we know that? Simply because you say that it’s an inordinate amount? Because the media says “Panthers connection” every time we sign someone who played in Carolina? You’re arguing with me about something I’m not even arguing about... I’m not saying they haven’t signed a lot of Panthers... but relative to the number of players they’ve brought in, and yes, the vast majority of Panthers players we have brought in have been depth, the number isn’t that large. When you say they don’t live up to their billing, I don’t understand how a depth signing, signed at the league minimum can’t live up to their billing? The reason all of those players are relevant is because that’s who the majority of former Panthers we have brought in have been competing against for a roster spot... because they’re primarily DEPTH! It wasn’t meant to serve as a comparison to other teams, it was meant to be relative to the number of players that have come and gone over the 4 years McDermott has been here. I don’t need other teams to show that... I wasn’t arguing that 22 was a large or small number. If you want me to spend hours combing over every team a player has played for and drawing those connections across the league, I’m sure I can do it. It’ll take some time. But ultimately here’s the thing... you claiming that they’ve signed and targeted an inordinate amount of Panthers is actually less relevant than my attempt at showing the numbers. You’re just claiming it, with literally no way to prove it’s quote on quote inordinate. You’re doing exactly what you’re accusing me of doing...

First 3 seasons missed 4 games. He’s missed 6 this year. A little overblown.

Well now my number is baloney... I would have at least appreciated you acknowledging that my math was good... keep moving the goalposts though... How is the data arbitrary? It’s all players brought into the organization, showing the percentage of former Panthers. When you recognize that players play for teams and move around, it’s really not a major issue. I know off the top of my head we have like 4 former Chiefs on the roster right now, a few Browns, some Jets. Do you really think it’s out of the realm of possibility that we’ve had 20 former Chiefs, Browns, Eagles, Seahawks through here in 4 years? Glad you just pivoted off of your first argument which was just off-base. Now you’ve narrowed down to 3 players expected to compete for starting positions and not the entire group of 22, most of which were entirely depth. I’m not downplaying their interest in players they’ve worked with, at all, I’m pointing out saying because they’ve targeted a bunch of Panthers (most of which depth) doesn’t mean that ALL of them didn’t pan out and it was a catastrophe like many here believe. I don’t understand why it’s a major issue that they brought in the best FA defensive end when we needed a pass rusher, signed Williams for $2.5M to compete for an o-line job and tossed Klein (coming from the Saints) money to be the 3rd LB? Can toss in Star too. So 4 starters in 4 years came from Carolina? How’s that for narrowing it down to the relevant field? I’ll gladly take some time to look into it, but the points remains that YOU don’t actually know either yet you’re making assumptions... you’re basing it off of the fact that the media points out we have former Panthers and they mention it from time to time.

1) Sweetheart... I listed 12/20 that were depth type players... didn’t get into Kelvin Benjamin but he was included. 2) The 360 number was perfectly fine considering that numerous players are released and added during training camp. If you want to spend the time to find the exact number, I’ll guarantee you it falls right around 360. I literally said ~360... that little squiggly thing means about... 3) Bad reading comprehension isn’t my issue. Math wasn’t bad, it was an estimate, I never gave a hard number. How was 20/360 wrong? What you want 5.5%, there I’ll give it to you. 4) You protest too much... you protest basically everything. You harp on the same talking points on every thread. I’m not protesting the fact that they’ve brought in Panthers, I’m protesting the idiotic assertion that all of them were expected impact players and/or didn’t live up to their expectations. I mean if the 12 depth players didn’t live up to their roughly minimum salary expectations to fill out the back end of the roster then I guess you have a case. EDIT: Because I know you won't do it, I just went through the numbers. 340 unique players on the Bills roster from the start of 2017 (hey not bad for me guessing 360!) 22 unique former Carolina Panthers players on the Bills roster from the start of 2017 (I forgot about Andre Smith and Daryl Worley in my previous post, so I was short 2 players) 22/340 = 6.5% of players in the Bills organization since 2017 that are former Carolina Panthers. My rough estimations were off by about 1%... a 1% error is really freaking good when you're just estimating...you caught me with my bad math. Round of applause.

I’ve gone over this in previous threads... there’s a humongous difference between impact signings and depth/camp signings. From years 1-3 there are only 2 players in the organization that were acquired by the Bills with ties to the Panthers still in the organization. Star and Marlowe (who was released and brought back). The only long term signing was Star.. the rest were depth. Yes, this year they heavily targeted former Panthers players, but throwing a large number like 20 out there (really actually not that large considering the turnover we’ve had since 2017, we only gave 6 players from 2017 still in the organization.. and the number of players that come into any organization during TC... there have been ~360 players on a Bills roster since 2017) and saying players weren’t worth the investment is kind of lazy... I mean was Kaelin Clay really a bad investment? Guys like Ryan Davis, Joe Webb, Leonard Johnson, LJ McCray, Mike Tolbert, Philly Brown, Robert Thomas, Jeremiah Siles, Derek Anderson, Kurt Coleman, Kaelin Clay. That’s 12/20 former Panthers that have been brought in... I mean if people honestly thought those guys were brought in to be anything more than depth it’s just a testament to fans ability to differentiate player roles. Using that 360 number above, which is ironically probably low (90 preseason roster x 4 seasons) and the 20 Panthers players... 5% of the players that Beane and McDermott have brought in are former Panthers...

Yeah, Hap, I think you do a great job of highlighting that development is far from being linear. Truthfully, development is the furthest thing from being linear. We’re human... that’s why...

I would argue his reputation is based off of endorsements by Bill Belichick and Nick Saban. I don’t think Allen’s development was exclusive of Daboll. I’ve worked with a few high level HS QBs and HS coaches and they rave about what Daboll does with his play calls... even dating back to last year. Basically how intricate the system is and how he’s constantly setting up for plays in future series. They love the route combinations. Now, is Daboll a HC candidate without Josh? Absolutely not. It’s a mutually beneficial relationship and more often than not the player does have more influence on the success of the pairing because if the players flames out then the coach carries part of the blame. They don’t often get another shot to develop players... whereas players can go somewhere else and a coach will take a chance at molding them. If your argument is that you need a franchise QB to have success as a coach, I agree with you. But it seems to be your argument is just that Daboll outright sucks... which is a piss poor argument.

You can’t just take 17/32 teams and use that to support your argument. That’s not how numbers work. That’s not being objective, that’s being extremely subjective. You’re cherry picking numbers to fit your argument. You take the entire sample or it’s worthless. You keep saying look at it however you want, but that’s what you’re doing. You’re categorically neglecting objective data, you’re implying that I’m applying my opinion to things when I am just looking at the facts...not one iota of your argument has been anything other than opinion. You want facts, yet you don’t use them.

Sure, let’s go back through all of your posts... I have them right here!!! They’re all in order too, which is fun. 1) You start off saying that Newton was careless with the football. You maintain this point the whole time. i think you should look at that game a little bit more...had nothing to do with not having brady and more to do with Newton being very careless with the football...because if you watched that game, the patriots where in seconds of winning that game....the bills with the pats JV squad were on their heels... 2) Here is where you tell me that you only want facts and not opinion... which is great! and no i am not contradicting myself at all because I truly do not care if you do not like what i like...just have facts not your opinions 3) Here you insert an opinion... you say you can insert any other QB and the Pats could have won. Well that’s an opinion, this is where I asked for you to provide DATA showing me any other QB would convert in that situation. Because you can insert any other QB in that situation and the pats could of won. That wasn't a situation were only elite QBs take control of. They were at the 20. Most NFL QBs could handle that moment. Tyrod Taylor could of won that game given how it was setting up. 4) Now you tell me (without data) that percentages are very high for the offense to score at any moment, with the implication that scoring in the red zone is very high for an NFL team. I obviously went through the numbers and that wasn’t the case at all, even though you presented me the numbers and said teams score a lot in the red zone... but I looked quick, did some rough math and found out it was 55% of the time... essentially a coin flip. and you want to act like the percentages aren't high for a offense marching down the field, ball on the 20 to score? OF course a lot can happen, but the percentages are high an NFL offense could score in that moment and no my post did not say the Pats would win...i said they "could" of won. 5) Now you just disregard all of that and say you FELT like they had a great chance even though the numbers still show it was a 50/50 shot. Again, you provide no facts, just your opinion. Which you told me in section 3 of this post was something you didn’t care about, you only care about facts. What i seen was, the patriots had the bills on their heels. Had Newton not fumbled .....i felt great about the patriots chances. Ultimately you changed from telling me that Newton was careless and any other QB would execute. You used the fact offenses score a lot in the red zone to support your argument. The data didn’t bear that out at all, it showed that it was a coin toss. Then you acted as if that supported your argument when it actually contradicted what you had asserted to me earlier on. Eventually you just give me your feelings on the situation saying that if Newton doesn’t fumble you feel good, even though the numbers suggest it’s almost as likely for the Patriots to not score there as it is for them to score. You gave me opinions the whole time, even though you said all you want is facts, and then when you presented facts they blew up your argument.

Because that hasn’t been your argument the entire time lol. Your argument has changed as I’ve continued to push back on it. But as it relates to your point, you were behaving as if Newton turning the ball over was so egregious and that teams automatically convert in the red zone (with no facts to support that) then the facts didn’t bear that. The Patriots not scoring there wasn’t as egregious as you said it was.

No, you’re not understanding how numbers work. I didn’t state how I felt, I asked for objective data in order to properly assess the situation. You provided that data, I analyzed that data and figured out your point was just wrong. You’ve been stating how you’ve felt this whole time and have been trumpeting your opinion as facts. That’s why I asked for objective data, which proved that.

Well that’s an opinion. You presented objective data to me and are now disregarding it in favor of your opinion, which is contrary to your whole message board posting code of ethics you laid out for me.

Yeah you see snippets of things. Not necessarily the whole story. Well from a probability standpoint it's essentially a coin toss...

I mean I asked specifically because fandom usually causes people to behave in certain ways and hold certain opinions. I’m just curious where you’re coming from... most fans also don’t have the bandwidth to watch all 32 teams and under the nuances of each organization, their games, etc. I can’t restrict your posting, it’s more for my knowledge. Doing rough math it looks like the average TD conversion rate was around 55% last year? I mean it’s not necessarily a guarantee. It’s closer to a coin toss than a guarantee. EDIT: My rough math was REALLY good. It was 56% last year.

Never said there was an issue with you being here. Okay that’s what they’re taught... who’s to say another QB running there doesn’t put it in the wrong arm and get the ball knocked out? We’re playing the same game here... the what if game... ultimately we don’t know... but stating someone else would execute isn’t a “fact” that’s an opinion. You’re presenting facts but the whole argument isn’t rooted in fact, it’s rooted in opinion with some facts being used to support it. Easy to confuse, but much different.

I asked who you root for and why you feel the need to post here... basically you’re not a Bills fan, so why take the time to post here? Okay, but what facts are you presenting in the 2nd half of your post here? You’re presenting an opinion, with absolutely zero facts to back it up. Is there a statistic that shows how often QBs convert in that situation? Are you telling me Cam Newton, a former NFL MVP and NFC Champion doesn’t know how to handle those situations? Insert any other DT and MAYBE they don’t force a fumble and the Patriots win the game? I mean you’re not presenting objective facts, you’re presenting an opinion.

You didn’t actually completely answer my question. I mean I never said anyone had to share the same point as you... no need to put words in my mouth. Question, and this is going to really put you in a sticky spot. What makes someone’s sports takes off base? Because if everyone doesn’t have to share the same point of view, then they’re allowed to have different takes. So because they don’t agree with you, their takes are off base? Pretty cool how you contradict yourself there...

That’s fair, but there’s also simply no way to say with certainty that Morse would definitely not be starting at center this Sunday if Ford wasn’t injured.

What team do you root for, and ultimately why do you feel the need to be here? Thanks for your time!