HappyDays

If you liked what Beane had to say, you'll like this clip of Chris Simms and Devin McCourty standing up for him: My response to them would be everything I've already said on here. But I do get what they're saying.

Meh there's no assurances for low cost reclamation projects signed after the draft. I'm sure he signed here mainly because there's a clear path to making the roster and producing with an elite QB, not because we guaranteed him a bunch of money. I'd definitely make him the favorite for the #5 spot right now.

Our most receptions last year was Shakir with 76. Next highest was Kincaid at 44... There's no way Moore is getting more than 80. First he has to make the team.

Watched a few "every target" videos from his time with Cleveland. Here's a game reel that gives you a good look at his pros and cons: I like that he is getting some decent separation. He has good vertical speed. Not sure he can consistently get through physical press coverage but he can run past defenders. The one deep catch in this reel it didn't look to me like he actually stayed inbounds even though they called it a catch, but you can see the speed and the ball tracking on that play. Biggest concern that jumps out is he plays small. He has no catch radius at all. Flacco sucks, that much is obvious, but I thought a couple of the incompletions here would have been caught by a more physically gifted WR. Also he isn't elusive with the ball in his hands. So kind of a low margin for error WR and I think he'll have trouble breaking into the lineup over Shakir and Samuel. But there is a baseline NFL skill set there at least.

We don't know what the money is yet. "Up to" is a classic red herring. Claypool got $1.135M from us. I would guess Moore is around $2.5M. Marginally more expensive but definitely getting paid like the low probability reclamation project that he is. Like I said I'm fine with it, I think he is better than his competition in the room.

That's exactly right. Fans overrate how much extra production WRs get from elite QBs. Chase and Higgins were still elite when Jake Browning was their QB. The example I always use is Tyreek Hill got more production when he went from Mahomes to Tua. WR production is about a whole lot more than their QB, and most of it rests on the WR themselves. I'm struggling to think of a recent example of a WR where the light suddenly clicked on after getting a better QB? It didn't happen with Kadarius Toney or Chase Claypool or Nelson Agholor, etc.

I see this as the analog of Chase Claypool last year. A talented athlete who hasn't been able to figure out the NFL game and has had questions about his attitude. I'm fine with it because he upgrades Shenault and Shavers but I don't have a ton of optimism.

I mean it can definitely be worse. I know everyone wants to blame bad QB play on Moore's lack of production, and I'm sure that's part of it, but he also plays small and does a poor job making himself an available target. Right now he's more an athlete trying to play football.

He is better than Laviska Shenault and Tyrell Shavers. So there's that at least.

I remain cautiously optimistic on Coleman. I hate the way his season ended, you never want to see a developing player end the season worse than he started, but that two game stretch of Tennessee and Seattle showed a glimpse of his potential. I don't expect him to hit his ceiling in year two, he has a lot he needs to work on and progression is not always linear, but hopefully he can get back on a positive trend line this year. Our roster as constructed can afford Bishop or Carter to bust IMO, but we can't afford Coleman to bust. And this is one thing I disagree with @GunnerBill on, I do think Coleman has the body type and skill set to play outside although it will never be as a separation specialist. I expect the Bills to keep trying him outside and if he fails to develop they will make him a big slot as a fall back option.

I consider Worthy to have proven he isn't a bust at least. His floor has been set, his ceiling is still in question. Coleman as much as I liked him as a prospect very well could turn out to be a bust. I'm in wait and see mode on him. There's no comparison between Rice and any of the other WRs we're talking about. Unless the injury alters his career, or he proves to be too stupid to last in the NFL (which is certainly possible), he looks like a true #1 and a cornerstone of the Chiefs moving forward.

But that just isn't true. Rashee Rice alone gives them a big advantage there. Before his injury he was looking like a true #1, possibly an elite #1. In his 3 games pre-injury he was tracking for over 1,600 yards on the season. I doubt he would have sustained that exact production over 17 games, but still they found an extremely talented and productive WR in the 2nd round because they kept throwing resources at the position.

Going back to 2022, by the trade value chart the Chiefs have spent 432 points on WRs. The Bills by comparison have spent 206. So KC is literally investing more than double what we are. It isn't comparable prioritization at all. Adding UDFA graded prospects like Shorter and Prather doesn't balance the scales. And this shouldn't come as a surprise - it's established that the Bills invest less into the position than any other team. Of their past 3 WRs drafted high, KC has one bust in Skyy Moore. That's a great hit rate, 2 out of 3. I agree with you that what we've gotten out of our WRs relative to the value we've spent on them has been strong. Davis was a very good 4th round pick and Shakir was an excellent 5th round pick. Diggs was a home run as a 1st round trade despite how it all ended. Coleman is TBD. I don't have an issue with how Beane scouts the position. I have an issue with how little he invests in young talent.

The WR class was seen as weak with top end talent, but it was known to be strong in terms of day two and three WRs with vertical traits. That's where it feels like we missed the boat. Kyle Williams, Felton, Royals, Horton, D*ke, Thornton... and that's just off the top of my head. I had my own preferences among that group but to me the most critical thing was adding some kind of field stretcher in a draft rich with that skill set. We should have double dipped last year too when the WR class was especially strong. I actually liked the Coleman pick which was an unpopular opinion, but we needed to add a true field stretcher too to complement his skill set. Because we didn't, we added MVS and Claypool which didn't work out at all, we lost games early in the season because we didn't have anybody to threaten defenses downfield, and then we had to trade a 3rd rounder for a half season rental to give us that skill set so our season wouldn't go completely off the rails. So the mistake compounded and cost us a top 100 draft pick this year. And now Cooper is gone and we have added nobody to replace his skill set. I just don't get it. They're making the same roster decisions that have proven to be mistakes in the past.

Even in the context of immediate needs taking Tory Horton over Jordan Hancock makes sense. Cam Lewis is a better player than Tyrell Shavers or Laviska Shenault. We just gave him a 2 year contract last offseason, and now we're looking to replace him? But we're letting Shavers or Shenault end up on the roster? I don't understand that at all. Deone Walker over Jalen Royals is still the move that I think has the most potential to haunt us, especially with KC taking Royals. You're lying to yourself if you're not at least a bit anxious about that outcome. All the arguments you're making about the Bills could have applied to the Chiefs too. Their WR room was Rice, Worthy, Brown, JuJu, plus their TEs Kelce and Gray. They could have left the room as is and let Justyn Ross compete with Tyquan Thornton for the #5 spot. Instead they gave Mahomes yet another young weapon to develop in the pipeline. They've added a WR with a 1st-4th round pick in each of the last four drafts. Personally I'd be looking to copy their formula, it seems to be working.

This guy's sources are reliable: So the last game ever at Highmark will be on Christmas. I would bet it's the Chiefs.

Yeah I disagree. Like I mentioned above Cooper's two deep completions in the Chiefs game won us the game. He had that crazy downfield catch for a TD against the Jets, which was our only TD pass all year of 20+ yards. No one else on the roster was making those plays. Most of our other downfield passes throughout the year were on broken plays where Allen just made magic happen all on his own. And opposing defenses agreed with me because once we added Cooper a lot of other things in our offense opened up. Opposing defenses weren't changing the way they played when it was just Coleman and Hollins running those routes, in fact they dared us to try them. Our passing offense had fallen apart and Cooper's addition got it back on track.

But they did that when they traded for Cooper last year off the heels of two games where having no vertical threat directly led to losses. They met with all of the vertical WRs in the pre-draft process this year too. Beane and McDermott have both openly stated they think adding more speed on offense would be valuable. So on one hand their actions and words tell you they know it is an important role, on the other hand the role remains unfilled as of now. I don't understand the plan, but hopefully they at least get a baseline option in the room.

I find it weird that Beane and others say "don't forget about Kincaid" in the WR discussion, but then they point to the Pats dynasty use of WRs while intentionally leaving out a certain elite pass catcher that was kind of critical to their offense...

I don't want to throw Coleman under the bus. I was one of his biggest advocates in the pre-draft process last year. I was disappointed with his performance after returning from injury and I wish he had finished the season strong, but I'm still hopeful he can make a year two jump. Even while advocating for him I expected his rookie year to be bumpy and his skill set to take time to develop. But being honest with myself, nothing he did last year makes me feel confident he is the outside downfield WR that we are missing. I watched enough of the Chargers last year to know Palmer is not a vertical WR. He is a decent separator and possession WR who can definitely play outside full time, but his vertical speed and ball tracking are not good enough to fulfill the role I'm talking about. Cooper last year is actually a good example of what I'm talking about. In the regular season KC game he made two big downfield catches, and both of those drives ended in TDs. So we literally do not win that game without his contributions as a downfield WR. Right now I don't believe we have anyone on the roster that can make those plays. I don't think we have anyone that will even force teams to defend that area of the field. Coleman is our best hope but like I said there's no real reason to be confident he will. Beane's response to this concern is to tell us to stop bitching about it. Okay. We'll find out pretty quickly this season if it's a legitimate concern, like we did last year before trading for Cooper. Hopefully I'm wrong about Palmer or Coleman takes a big step in his development.

I think it just has to be the case regardless. I mean unless the worst case outcome happens to every single player we added, at a bare minimum we should be significantly more talented on defense than we were last year. We've built up enough depth that we can manage an injury or two to a starter if it comes to that. Unless our IR wire looks like the Lions last year the defensive coaches have to be able to make it work with this group. The reason I said less than 24 points and forcing 4 punts is that is exactly what Cincy did to KC in their last AFCCG, a game that Cincy of course still lost but that defensive performance would have been enough for us to beat KC in our last three tries. Cincy did that while starting Eli Apple and Cam Taylor-Britt at CB, and only one pass rusher to write home about. So I think that is a very fair standard for our defense to meet.

Honestly, good. I've been skeptical that throwing a ton of resources at the defense would really make a difference in the postseason. If nothing else I'm glad we're putting that theory to the test. It creates somewhat of an ultimatum for McDermott - if all of these talent and coaching additions aren't enough, nothing ever will be.

One point kind of lost in all this is that as much as Beane has put the spotlight on himself, this entire offseason also puts a spotlight on McDermott. Everyone agrees his defense has been our biggest problem in the postseason, and this regime has planted their flag that it is talent more than coaching that has been holding them back. Beane's offer to Brady this offseason was a WR3 and a blocking TE. His offer to McDermott was a CB1, three new EDGEs, three new DTs, and more secondary depth than we can even keep on the roster. So despite my frustration with the continued underinvestment in WR, I'm at least glad that everyone is in agreement that the defense now has the necessary talent to perform at an above average level in the postseason. You can't give all of these resources to a defensive head coach and then come back later making excuses that the talent wasn't good enough. This has to be the year KC's offense doesn't walk all over us in January. I think a realistic standard should be keeping them below 24 points and they need to punt at least 4 times. Otherwise, what was the point of this offseason?

It's about getting a WR with a specific necessary skill set. I didn't need the Bills to spend a top 100 pick on a WR from this class or multiple picks. I just wanted a WR that could play outside and get vertical, that's all. The role is so important they got rid of MVS so they could trade for Cooper last year. As of right now we don't even have an MVS on the roster, the role remains unfilled. Also for a team with an "everybody eats" mentality the #5 WR is more important than it is for other teams. Yeah when your top 2 are Chase/Higgins or Hill/Waddle no one cares who your #5 is. But when your offense is built around WRs that are all complementary role players with specific skill sets, you better make sure all the skill sets are accounted for and every player has a way to contribute. I don't know how anyone couldn't be concerned that we're going to see games like the Ravens and Texans last year where the offense was a slog because we had no way to threaten them downfield outside. We added Cooper and the lights clicked on. We at least need to get that baseline on the roster. I thought early day three was a great opportunity to do that in this class.

The team isn't lacking speed. KJ Hamler is on the PS. Jalen Virgil ran a 4.40. What it's lacking is speed WRs that can actually play at an NFL level consistently and get deep. Moore doesn't do either of those. I'd take him at this point because he's better than Shavers or Shenault but it's a marginal improvement and his skill set is mostly redundant with what already exists in Samuel and Shakir. Honestly I'd rather we re-sign Amari Cooper if anything. At least there's some sort of proof of concept there and he gives us a baseline vertical skill set.