GunnerBill

Belichick didn't bring guys back? That's a wild take. Patrick Chung, Jamie Collins, Trey Flowers, Trent Brown, LaGarrette Blount.... and that is literally off the top of my head. Nobody let guys go then brought them back when they failed in other systems more than Bill.

That is a little bit driven by function of the defense but I also don't disagree that there is a talent gap. Stingley is elite. Benford is really good, I'm not yet sold he is elite. He is a kinda borderline top 10 outside corner. Stingley is a top 4 or 5 guy.

very, very well hidden

As I said above (probably 25 pages ago now) it is a gamble that: a) you get him properly healthy - which I don't think he has been even when out there for most of the past 3 years; and b) when healthy the ability remains I tend to lean more towards the ability (or enough of it) should remain if you can get him healthy. I think a) is by far the bigger risk.

Not a chance.

Deserved contract. Guy is a stud. But if I am the Broncos I feel really good about having the best corner in football tied in for the next 5 years for $6m less than the position ceiling. That shows you the advantage in going early. While this definitely impacts the Bills with Benford it hurts the Jets and Chiefs even more with the Sauce / McDuffie contracts to come.

I think it is more down to talent than coaching, yes. The opinion is very clear and very owned. To say I think it is entirely one or the other is a major over simplification of my position.

I'm founder member of the CJ West fan club. I like Phillips too, I flagged him before the Shrine Bowl as one of my ones to watch and he had a great week of practice there. I didn't think he was as dominant in the game as I'd have liked, but I'm not going to over weight performance in an all star game. If either of those could be had with our first 4th round pick that is the sort of range where they'd represent excellent value.

And the O just looks more explosive when Dawson is out there. He is definitely a bigger threat once the ball is in his hands and he just seems better at finding space in traffic downfield. It's a big year for Dalton - but I'd certainly be open to a trade if there was one out there that made sense. Think Knox much better suits what Brady wants to do.

Yea if you selectively quote me out of context, sure. The secknd para of my post starts with this line: "However, it is fair to say that there are always two parts to pro bowl, all pro, top 100 type recognition and that is usage as well as talent." I am not and have never denied that I think it is more lack of elite talent than coaching. The whole point of the post here, however, was that AP, PB and T100 recognition are not, in themselves complete proof of that in the way the OP was trying to argue because there is an element of usage that goes into players getting that recognition. So yes, I did say it is not as simple as just blame the GM for the relative lack of AP, PB, T100.

Roseman didn't have full control until 2015. He became GM in 2010 working essentially as the senior personnel guy to Andy Reid. And then Chip Kelly had personnel control too when he took over. Howie has had control since Chip's firing. He hasn't nailed every decision, but he is the best GM in football by far.

TJ is a really good player. But not a fit for Buffalo because he is an alternative to Ed Oliver not a compliment. Tyleik. Meh. He is a very good run stuffer but he offers very little backfield penetration potential. If he gets to a round 2 pick I'd consider?

I disagree. I think Oliver is just a superior player. Wilkins resetting the DT market last year was lunacy.

I mean the GM and HC both reporting to the owner isn't all that uncommon in the NFL these days. It isn't the case in Philly, that is true, but Howie is more than just the GM. He is over the entire football operation. The Chiefs, Niners, Ravens, Chargers, Broncos to name a few all have a flat structures.

The Wilkins contract is, and was, ridiculous. I'd take Ed over him 100 times out of 100. Simmons is a stud, however. He slid in that draft for reasons other than ability. I mean my one post to that point in this thread was saying it isn't as simple as blame the GM for lack of players getting recognition. But, sure. You do you.

First of all, I don't give a rat's anus about hockey. Second, coaching and development matter. But they don't matter more than talent. Talent matters more than anything else. And the Bills at the elite end have lacked it. Especially the past two years when Josh has been the only elite guy on the roster.

1. We did not sit in soft zone against Mahomes in the AFCCG. We played more man coverage and we did press at the line in some places too. He killed us in man. When we went back to what we do well - zone coverage - in the 2nd half we had much more success. This obsession with zone coverage being the problem is a false narrative. Would Benford staying out there have helped? Sure. Would it have changed the outcome? I don't think so. KC killed the man coverage by manipulating the matchups to get Worthy and Hollywood in the middle of the field in 1v1s against Milano, Bernard and Hamlin in particular and they just couldn't hold up. 2. The Eagles played man coverage on exactly ONE play in the Superbowl. The very first 3rd down they went dime package man across the board. Otherwise they played the whole game in zone. It was the Leslie Frazier 2021 regular season vs Mahomes gameplan. All zone coverage, box to the strong side, zero blitzes. Did they do some press bail - where corners show press at the line and then bail out into zone coverage? Yep. But it isn't like that was the majority of their defense. It wasn't, it was a wrinkle. Both the Mahomes picks came on standard zone coverages with the corners playing off. There was a sack Mahomes took 2nd half where the Eagles corners were giving 10 yard cushions - the sort that drives fans mad here because they presume only the Bills do it - and Mahomes, who had completely lost his head at this point, drops his eyes and runs into the arms of Jalen Carter. The Eagles definitely have more talent than us. In the secondary and up front. Fangio had a great plan, make no mistake. But it wasn't playing a ton of press man coverage. 3. You have still provided no evidence for your assertion that Benford is just a zone corner beyond the Bills don't press at the line much, and you think he struggles running with guys. As @HappyDays has already said in the AFCCG for the brief period he was out there we saw him run step for step with Hollywood Brown and break up a pass. I don't think there is actual evidence that he struggles to run with fast guys. I think it is a perception fans have. And it is because they think "6th round pick, limited athlete." But Benford has a higher RAS score than Tre White. He didn't go in round 6 because he is a limited athlete. He went in round 6 because he played at Villanova. I am fine anyone being wary about a big extension to Benford because of the concussions. I am fine anyone being wary about it because they have just committed two big contracts, in addition to Ed's, to a defense that is coming off a bad season. But I utterly dispute any assertion that Benford hasn't proved he is worth the payday. He was the Bills second best player in 2024 after Josh Allen. He was a top 10 corner in football. And he can play man much better than fans give him credit for. If there is a player on the Bills beyond Josh who by the end of next season we might saying okay this guy is elite the two contenders for me are Spencer Brown and Christian Benford.

You will have to show me some evidence of his "relative under performance" in those situations. Because while I definitely am not saying I have the data broken down at the level to disprove it I have watched the all22 of every Bills game last season back and it was not something that jumped out to me at all. I think Benford can play press. Is he a guy you want to do that with down in down out? No, probably not. But nobody does that in the NFL in 2024. Pat Surtain is the best corner in football, by a distance IMO, and played 74 press man snaps the entire year (out of 978 total snaps played) Surtian is better in man coverage than Benford, don't get me wrong, he is better than everyone. My point is just if your argument is you are not paying him because he doesn't do much press man when even the best guy only does on about 7.5% of his snaps you better be able to demonstrate that when Benford does do it there is a significant drop off in his play. Otherwise the argument just doesn't make sense.

So I do, and long have, fallen more on the side of we lack elite difference makers rather than "our coaches are the problem." Ultimately players are more important than coaches, always have been, always will be. However, it is fair to say that there are always two parts to pro bowl, all pro, top 100 type recognition and that is usage as well as talent. Again I lean to the latter being more important than the former but im setting the context for the discussion I think it is important to put that out there.

He is another non-separator on the boundary. His best asset, exactly the same as Keon's last year, is his agility and power as a runner in the open field with the ball in hand. But you have got to get him free releases and manufacture him some touches (both much easier to do in the slot). If you are asking him to win downfield on the boundary with any regularity in the NFL it is going to be a tough ask.

No I am not saying that. I am saying he is good at man coverage because the analytic data supports that. I am not saying he is good at man coverage because he is good at zone. I don't have the data on how often in man coverage the Bills ask their corners to press at the LOS. I accept that they don't do that all the time even when they are in man. But it also isn't never. And if when they did Benford was regularly getting exposed it would surely impact his overall numbers in man coverage, correct? I think the reason a lot of fans think Benford is a zone only corner is because he was a 6th round pick and the Bills got serviceable zone only corner play from Dane Jackson (7th rounder) and Levi Wallace (UDFA) previously. People presume he is just a slightly bigger, slightly better version of that player. But that is not what the tape shows and it isn't what the data indicates either. I contend he is every bit as good in man coverage as peak Tre White. What he isn't is quite as elite in zone as peak Tre (who for a couple of years was probably the best pure zone concept guy in football).

If Hoecht and Palmer were on other team's lists would they be listed as "quality"?

Given the concussions at the end of the year I think waiting (unless he wants to come to the table for whatever they have already offered) and then tagging is likely the way to go. And I don't think it would be tagging with the intention of him playing on the tag, it would be tag to give yourself until camp to work out an extension.

Williams is another big slot. He doesn't separate outside. Would be like drafting Keon Coleman all over again. Royals is a better outside receiver.

What you are saying is simply not accurate though. Nakua had 1 catch for 19 yards on Benford. It was mainly Taron Johnson who got cooked by him. 4/5 for 53 yards. Being honest about what happened requires you to, you know.... be honest about what happened. The Bills were, it is true, predominantly a zone defense team although the final 3rd of the season and the playoffs they were much more a hybrid team. From the Kansas City regular season game (where they played more man than zone) on they were almost 70-30, having been about 85-15 prior. For context 30% over the full season would have been the 15th highest man coverage rate in the league. Now they didn't do that all season, of course, but they shifted that way down the stretch into more of a hybrid coverage team. But when in man coverage Benford gave up the joint 10th least separation. Among qualifying corners. Tied with a guy who just reset the market. That isn't because of cushion or still playing off or whatever. In fact the cushion would surely make it harder to record those stats? I actually think he is already as good as prime Tre in man coverage. Tre was what Benford is IMO. A good man coverage guy. The difference between the two for my money is actually that Benford isn't yet an elite zone coverage guy at quite the level peak Tre White was.