Rocky Landing

Specifically, "some kind of developing ankle issue..."

Tua has become a known commodity. He's extremely accurate, he's exceptional at timing routes, and he can go through progression very quickly. Those are his strengths. But, his weaknesses don't seem to be going away. He doesn't handle pressure well... at all. He can't break a tackle, and he's utterly terrible at extending plays, or throwing off-schedule. His fragility may be overstated, but he's gun-shy when it comes to getting sacked, and he loses his down-field vision when rushers break through the line. He can get the Fish to the playoffs, but he's not a playoff QB, if he can't extend plays.

Maybe we should bring back Peterman?

This is a guy that understands the importance of an energized fan base.

Dawkins, Edwards, McG, Torrence, Brown is certainly likely. But Kromer always tries multiple combinations throughout TC, and nothing is written in stone. They brought in Will Clapp to compete, as well. There is plenty that can happen that would result in McG remaining at LG, and they wouldn't have to be drastic to occur, IMO. I wouldn't read that far into it. MVS is not a special teams player. Every other WR, including Claypool, has worked out on ST.

This is a good thing to see. Claypool has a reputation as being a poor teammate, and Shakir has a reputation for being one of the nicest guys on the planet. If the Claypool reclamation project is to be successful, it will be with the help of people like Shakir. (Plus, Claypool didn't finish the last few reps of practice due to getting banged up. Good to see he wants to put in the work). As good a leader as you will find in the NFL.

Or MVS, or Hollins, or Shorter, or Shavers. There are six 6'4"+ WRs on the current roster. Likely, there will be two 6'4"+ WRs on the PS this year. The Bill WR room got big!

Also makes sense that they would pair Bishop with the most veteran player.

We know this from every Embedded, every report, and every press conference we've seen regarding the draft. If you can cite anything to suggest that it is McD, and not Beane who makes the final decisions in the draft, I'd love to see it, and I know the Bills organization tends to keep their cards close to the vest. But everything we have ever seen from draft night has Beane making the phone calls, doing the negotiating, and ultimately pulling the trigger. When Beane traded with KC, and then Carolina, do you think he looked over to McD to get approval? I don't.

At least a couple of things missing from that play, though... pads, for starters... I know there are people on here who think we should have gotten Worthy instead of Coleman. But I couldn't disagree more. We needed bigger, more aggressive, and tougher receivers. We needed bullies. That's who we went after. That's who Coleman is. That is very much not what Worthy is.

C'mon Bill, I know that McDermott, and Beane very intentionally keep themselves on the same page. But, Brandon Beane is in charge of the draft. We know this.

Literally my point.

On paper (all we really have at this time of year) it is ugly. But not nearly as ugly as you're painting it! To your points: 1) Robert Foster, who absolutely crapped out of the league within three years, had 541 yards receiving in his rookie year under Allen. On the other side of that coin, as has been stated numerous times in this thread, numerous receiver's yards increased significantly under Allen. Diggs' production jumped from 1,130 yards in Min, to 1,535 under Allen in his first season. Diggs went from the 44th ranked WR in '19 in Minnesota, to the #1 ranked WR in '20. Khalil Shakir's numbers jumped from 161 yards in his '22 rookie season, to 611 in '23. And that was as a #3WR. And if you don't want to accept any of those examples as "breakout star" numbers, then you will also have to admit that what you want to define as a "breakout star" doesn't occur on a team that already has an elite star like Stefon Diggs, who was ranked 1st, 9th, 4th, and 7th in his four years in Buffalo, respectively. 2) This is a pretty convoluted standard, and "showed great promise" is utterly subjective. Could you say that Cole Beasley, who never started more than six games in a season (and only once) in seven years in Dallas "showed great promise" before becoming the Bills' starting #2WR? 3) This is the most pessimistic part of your post. The Bills have had a 1,000+ yard WR every year since '19-- Allen's second season. I'm not going to dig into every year since then, but two teams had more than one WR with 1,000+ yards last season: Miami (Hill, Waddle), and Philadelphia (AJ Brown, DaVonte Smith). Hill, and Brown obviously had 1,000+ yard seasons before arriving at their current teams. Waddle was drafted 6th overall, and Smith was drafted 10th overall. But what really makes this non-point utterly pessimistic is that it completely ignores the jump in production that numerous WRs have made under Allen by applying an arbitrary metric. 4) We all know what you mean by a "dumpster dive receiver." Unfortunately, I don't believe there are any sites that post stat-lines for "dumpster dive receivers." But, there have been WRs, who had some level of production under Allen, whom once they left, went straight into the dumpster. McKenzie went from 482 yards in '22, to 81 yards in '23. I guess we can all watch what kind of numbers Davis puts up in Jax.

With due respect, I don't really agree with you. I think it's been a pretty decent discussion, and quite a few good points brought up. There has perhaps been too much redundancy, and the intransigence has been a bit annoying. But, WR is the biggest issue on this team right now, and while you certainly could pare 60 pages down to about fifteen, or so, nobody beats a dead horse like TBD. The funniest thing about this thread is that it started with a basically ridiculous take, that included words like, "...but you can argue he's [MVS] the reason KC won the SB." (I'm as much of a homer as anyone, but c'mon!) Honestly, I wish there were a thread like this for the D-line.

Maybe I have a recency bias, but I really effing hated Mac & Cheese Jones.

I wouldn’t bother listening to the press-talk Diggs’ current QB has to say about him— of course he’s going to talk him up. Still, I don’t think he really “lost a step.” Maybe a certain amount of motivation. But for Beane, moving on from him now meant that he could get value for him. It’s frustrating to think that the FO is building for 2025, but this season shouldn’t be written off, as the OP seems to suggest.

These are the things Brandon Beane thinks about. One could argue that the O-line is as important as the WR corps. If people are disappointed with how Beane has built the WR room, he has at least built a deep O-line. Spencer Brown has also been a great teammate, and that goes back to his time at N. Iowa. But, he has been hampered throughout his career (including college) with injuries. That will likely drive his value down a little bit, and hopefully we can afford him. I suspect he would love to stay in Buffalo-- that's the kind of teammate he is.

This video seems like a fair assessment, more or less. 8-9 with a healthy Josh Allen does seem pretty unlikely, but there is a lot that can fall apart on this team, and lots of "ifs." And that's why they call it "the floor," anyway. It's not likely to happen, but it could... But, I'm sorry, 11-6 as their ceiling? A tad low. 13-4 is at least as likely as 8-9.

Nice one. To be clear, I don't think our WR room is better than it was last season-- not without Diggs, or someone of his caliber. But if he was still a Bill, or if we had acquired an elite WR, then this room would be rock solid, IMO.

Attributing someone else's quote to me is just gaslighting. Be that as it may... That phrase "exceeded expectations" is is too vague in this context to really be meaningful. Was Diggs, Beasley, or Brown expected to have their best career numbers as soon as they came to Buffalo? Was fourth round pick, Gabe Davis expected to become the #2WR for three seasons? (And will he meet expectations in Jax?) Was UDFA Foster expected to have the rookie season he did? Was Knox expected to become a legit receiver, after being a blocking TE in college? For that matter, was Shakir, with his tiny little arms, expected to finish the season the way he did? Harty was expected to be a P/KR, and he was. You have stated that the Bills WRs are expected to be 27th in the league, and the receivers are expected to be 24th. I have presented arguments for why I believe it is very likely they will finish the season ranked higher, and I stand by that. But I want to ask you again: Do you honestly believe that Josh Allen doesn't elevate the performance of his WRs?

I can't agree with this line of reasoning at all. UDFA Foster, who utterly tanked with Washington his third year, and is now out of the NFL, underperformed with Allen??? Fourth round Gabe Davis underperformed with Allen? Knox, who never caught a TD in his entire college career has underperformed with Allen? McKenzie? Have you looked at his numbers since he left Buffalo for the Colts? Of course, Brown and Beasley underperformed... except when they didn't. Are you honestly saying that Josh Allen doesn't elevate his WRs?

Just in terms of straight athleticism, how do you think Coleman compares to Davis?

I strongly suspect that these pre-season rankings lack quite a bit of context. And, of course, post-season rankings are based on the season's production-- no additional context necessary. But, there is real data to suggest that Josh Allen will elevate the WR room's production, just as he did in 2020. So, the question to be considered is how much of this contextual data, and unknowns (Allen's ability to elevate WR play, the TEs, and RBs drawing coverage, etc) are being considered by ESPN's, and other analysts rankings? I have to believe that a ranking that places the Bills' WRs at 27th is primarily based on stacking up the individual performances of the group, and would include very little context beyond that. And that's fine. (It's certainly not good news.) But, this methodology, in the case of the Bills, and in my admittedly optimistic view, lowers the ranking, and is not a good speculative metric. I would bet money that at the end of the season, this group will not rank 27th, or lower in production.

I would put catch %, and a low drop-rate above the 50/50 balls. I would put route running, and versatility above that as well. For example, I'd rather have Coleman be able to run a proper fade, than rely on a contested catch. YAC's pretty important, also-- and something we've lacked from some of our receivers. It's an interesting discussion, though. I wonder how some of our other, illustrious contributors prioritize a WR's skillsets?

Regarding point 2): The data for ranking WR rooms going into a season, is a lot foggier for some teams than it is for others. It is especially foggy for the Bills for numerous reasons-- Shakir is our only returning WR, the data for the FA WRs comes from other teams, and QBs (far lesser teams, and QBs for most of them), and the way they get used, and who rises in the system is speculatory. I submit that that uncertainty alone will push the Bills WR room ranking down from teams for which the data is more relevant. And if you judge someone like Curtis Samuel on his past performance, without applying the context of the unquestionably better situation he will be entering with the Bills, then it's reasonable to believe he will exceed expectations. That 2020 group of Diggs, Beasley, and Brown, who all had career years with Allen, provide compelling evidence for an optimist like myself. Regarding point 4): Perhaps I've misrepresented your opinion regarding Shakir, or whomever ascends to WR#1, and the "extra attention" that receiver will attract. Obviously, that will happen. But some on this thread seem to suggest that Khalil Shakir is going to be smothered, or at least receive the same attention that Diggs did. But I don't think it's going to be as significant as all that. Regardless of what personnel is on the field-- 12, 11, or even that jumbo package that Brady seems to love-- there will almost always be four legit receivers on the field, and often five. But, you're definitely right about one thing: It does all look easier in the offseason. At least, for an optimist like myself. But, for the pessimists around here, it seems to go the other way.