OldTimer1960

The point wasn't that EJ Manuel will be as good as Jim Kelly. It was that even HOFer Kelly went through growing pins and improved - hence it isn't unreasonable to expect that EJ Manuel needs on the job time before being finally judged - I don't think that there was any more implied than that.

Wait, in another thread several posted that the OL and QB play are independent. So you meant to say that a good OL can help a QB?

Does anyone remember that the IMMORTAL Jim Kelly threw 14 TDs and 19 INTs in his first year in Buffalo - AFTER 2 years of professional football in the USFL? Kelly was FANTASTIC and a major reason that the team made 4 SBs in a row - but immediately great was not the case.

Yep - Jim Kelly, whom we all immortalize, played 2 professional seasons in the USFL before coming to Buffalo. Yet, when he came to Buffalo in the NFL, he wasn't immediately great. My point is that it is WAY oversimplistic to blame the 2nd year QB for all offensive problems. SEE: SF and Colin Kaepernick in year 3 and RG3 (whom Washington gave up a TON of draft picks for). Neither of those guys are lighting it up this pre-season. It isn't just "pick a QB from college because it is a "new ERA" and most college QBs are NFL ready". BTW, the argument that there is somehow this "new school" of QBs coming out of college are somehow all ready to play in the NFL is nonsense, as far as I can see. Dan Marino dominated as a rookie in 1983, but most other young QBs struggled. Does anyone think that because Andrew Luck was good as a rookie that all rookie QBs should be good without experience?

yet Aaron Rodgers sat behind Brett Farve for 3 or more years and Drew Brees was allowed to leave SD as a FA after 4 years,,, Clearly, if the Packers expected Rogers to be great after 1 year, they'd have cut/traded him. SD didn't like Brees enough to prevent them from drafting Rivers and letting Brees - a likely HOF, go. To be clear, QB IS important and you need advanced knowledge from them. HOWEVER, few 3+ year veterans are going to listen to him. To wish away growing pains is NOT realistic - especially when the receivers are mostly young/inexperienced. Tell me, what receiver - WR or TE does EJ have that is so experienced that he can run the right route given the play call AND the defense' play?

In what organization is the guy who has been there 1 year the supposed leader? The whole premise of the QB must make the team HIS and be responsible for everything is flawed, in my humble opinion. There are zero business organizations where the guy they brought in 1 year ago is expected to be the CEO, or at least be the surrogate CEO. I don't care if they come from Harvard's Business School, no 1 year professional is expected to understand all of the nuances of a business (or an offense) and be put in charge of more experienced co-workers. Most guys who have been there 1 year and been part of that are still trying to find the bathroom and figure out who they talk to for most things... The idea that because Russell Wilson had success with the best defense in the NFL and a dominant running game, therefore any other young QB who hasn't had early success is a bust is ridiculous. As far as "old school vs new school", I'd suggest that a *very* few QBs have always come into the league ready to play. In 1983, Dan Marino nearly set NFL records - yet Steve Young came into the NFL with USFL professional experience and played so poorly for Tampa Bay that he was traded to SF where he eventually turned into an all-time great. JW: Your second year with your first employer - were you personally responsible for how bad that employer's product was? What could you REALLY have done about it? Let's say you were trying to find yourself as a writer/reporter and the Advertising Dept sucked - was that your fault? What could you do about it - write faster? How about if your Editor cut significant things from your writing - would that matter? Let's not over-simplify - a 23 yo is not going to tell older players what to do unless he is *TRUELY* spectacular.

+1 But, but, but the "experts" on WGR say it is all the QB...

I agree. I was alarmed at the poor play by the entire offense, including EJ and especially the OL, but to criticize his press conferences is silly. I believe than he is working hard and I *hope* that the OL shuffling is over so that maybe they can get some cohesion. I am less confident today than I was before the game, but I am still hopeful that the O can pull it together. There is lots of (young/inexperienced) talent on this team. Hopefully, they can grow quickly.

I have been staunch in my belief that EJ needs to be given at least a full season this year to determine if he can be a competent NFL QB, but that 1st half performance was worse than JP Losman ever put together. Still, I agree that the problems really began with the OL. No holes on 1st down runs and a myriad penalties put the offense in no-win position. I get that the OL has been shuffled and reshuffled over and over, but they were flat abysmal -and that is a LOT for an offense to overcome

The OL was embarrassingly horrendous. Did they block anyone? How many penalties did they have on top of that? How could they be THIS bad?

The OL was embarrassingly horrendous. Did they block anyone? How many penalties did they have on top of that? How could they be THIS bad?

This isn't even professional football. Ugh, there is way too much talent on this team to play this poorly..

OK, I've been defending EJ since he was drafted, but he is terrible.

Very uninspiring. OL has played very poorly so far.

Maybe in a year, they have lots of young talent. My question in response is how many top 5 QBs are there in the league (5 right?). That means that 27 other teams don't have a top 5 QB and I think many of them reject the notion that the only way to get deep into the playoffs is to have a superstar HOF QB.

In spite of all the bashing that he took on this board, Buddy Nix had a hand in improving this roster, too. I believe that the overall talent on the Bills' roster is far greater than when Nix first arrived. Still, if the idea for THIS year was to compete with a dominant defense while developing the young offensive talent (Manuel, Watkins, Woods, and the young OL, etc), then from my vantage point they have taken multiple significant unplanned hits (Byrd, Dareus, Pettine and now Alonzo) that will very likely weaken the defense that they were counting on and put more pressure on a very young offense.

Did you even read my post? Nowhere in there did I say that there was no young talent or that the entire foundation of the team was gone. Nor did I say that EJ Manuel was bad. I described Manuel as a young inexperienced QB whom I think can develop into a good game manager - and that isn't a criticism, teams can win with strong defense and a solid QB that manages the game. Further, I said that the team was built counting on a very strong defense to carry them while they assembled and developed the young talent on offense. The point of my post was that the defense (that they were counting on to be very strong) has taken several unplanned big hits this offseason and doesn't look like it will be a big strength - at least it doesn't to me. My post was lamenting the Bills' bad luck. I happened to agree with their strategy. So, for everyone that tried to simplify my post into "one player's injury doomed the season" or worse inserted things that I specifically did not say - chill and learn to read.

Also lost the Defensive Coordinator who manufactured a lot of pressure with his blitzes.

This team was attempting to build a very strong defense to keep it in contention while they added young talent to the offense. The team was intended to win with defense and not lose the game on offense. This is illustrated by the selection of EJ Manuel as it's QB. I think that Manuel can be a competent starter with a very good defense to take pressure off of him and significant talent around him on offense. However, I don't see Manuel as a top 5 QB. Who can carry a team on his back. I felt that the Bills' strategy of building a very strong D and adding offensive talent around Manuel was a good one. Unfortunately, the defense that was the foundation of the team has crumbled this offseason - mostly through no fault of the organization. Byrd didn't want to be here, so one Pro Bowl defender gone. Then the Browns hired DC Mike Pettiness away leaving Jim Schwartz and his whack wide-9 scheme in its place. Next, talented but under-achieving Marcell Dareus put himself in position to be suspended. Finally (hopefully), the Bills lost their only starting caliber LB. (Alonzo). The team is now left with 3-4 personnel trying to play a 4-3- likely missing Dareus for a chunk ofmthenseason. I would venture to say that the defense went from potentially very good to a liability with perhaps a bottom 10 defense. The offense now has some young talent at WR and OL, with an inexperienced QB who has shown enough to be hopeful that he could become an effective game manager. Unfortunately, they really needed to focus on winning 14-10, but now they'll be lucky to hold many opponents below 25-30 points - that is a pace that this young O could not sustain for an entire half

That is how I remember it and Wikipedia says so - Williams was the 4th pick

FAIL

I would like for them to get Brandon Oliver today. I know he would be a long shot to make the team, but he was very good for UB and I think he'd have a chance.

She is correct. Mr. Oldtimer, esq

I like the gamble on a 1st round talent with a question on health. Certain that the Bills' Doctors were comfortable with him.

I don't see it this way at all. A good backup QB is worth a 4th or 5th round pick, especially if you have a better grade on him than other positions.