NoSaint

It's pretty much impossible to judge a GM that was tasked with drastic and regular scheme changes and no say over that. All you can be at that point is a scout that hopes for the best.

I do wonder if this would've been a pre draft move if not for Whaley being retained so long. Or likewise if we would've changed free agent plans knowing the agenda earlier. And if not specifically replacing a WR and CB in august if the total resources could have been greater (trading for need being like drafting for need instead of best player available-best offer available)

Hell, Goodwin ran like a 4.2something, right? But we'd agree Sammy is a better deep ball threat, right? Simplified: we agree there's more than 40 time in the discussion of deep threats? That's not to say the stats nothing but you keep posting it as if a defensive coordinator would somehow be similarly accounting for streater and Sammy

That's mario for Skelton bad

It's a neglected perspective sometimes. Really when we trash most of these guys it ends up looking silly when you step back. Tyrods not a complete qb but he sure is an entertaining athlete

Truly our dream scenario is someone like luck doesn't get healthy and a team with a franchise qb picks 2-3 and a couple of meh or rookie qbs end up top 5 leaving those teams not picking qb. It's possible but the swap from a .500 type roster to slightly under .500 is purgatory

Right-- when you send out talent this year for picks next year, trade back in the draft for a pick next year, and let more substantial FAs walk than you sign to free up space next year.... you are not building the 2017 team. You are building 2018 and hoping not to embarrass in 2017

Oh, even in his so called mediocrity, taylor might be more rare than Sammy in his skill set. Hopefully he puts even more of it together. Sometimes it's good to step back from the super fan ledge and simply appreciate that it's a pretty cool game with freaks of nature doing amazing things. Being a saints season ticket holder it's great seeing guys like drew, or cam or Julio jones in person and have some rooting interest but also just enjoy the game

Ultimately, it's a game. And I'll likewise continue to enjoy watching these guys play. As frustrating as it is to not win more than we do -- I still enjoy getting to see players like Sammy do things that only a very small number of humans can do.

I'll keep saying that cutting kujo seemed short sighted unless there was a lot more that we didn't know. The kid was a cheap and serviceable player at an expensive and hard to fill position that had an injured starter. I don't see many reasons to rush him off the roster and would have kept him until cut day to see both his own progression and cordys health.

I like the story more than the player I think... I don't dislike the player but I think the fans give him a ton of leeway because of a combo of the story and because other corners have been terrible. To put my grading of his talent into terms here: i liked him more than NRC, but less than Gilmore or Darby. but it's hard to judge anyone on that defense. Something just does not work and it's hard to put a finger on who/what are the problems. Even the great 2015 had a ton of penalties, and gave up some big plays... but he had no help and was pretty darn raw so all in all he had a good year. But I've always struggled with the word great on him.

Part of me worries we are quick to ship guys out and a big part of coaching goes beyond scheme or game day management and centers around building bridges/managing men and maximizing the talent you have in place. Not everyone is a perfect fit or will 100% buy in at all times... and you can still be a better team for having that player

And there you go getting sucked back in!

Well, 3.25 in New England and one of those with cassell In the 2 full seasons with Brady the average is 18 tds, which would've been his best season in minny.

And it may come up aces for him, honestly, but it certainly leaves me very uneasy. Completely dismantling the young core of the team (not just this trade) is a bold play and if it flops it's the type of strategy that takes time to come back from. If we throw this year out, and next year is a rookie qb with a lot of very green mid rounders around him, it's almost become a 3 year plan that if it flops leaves us in a deep hole to dig out of... there's some part of me that thinks the roster wasn't terrible and the cap situation not dire so we probably could've married maximizing talent with collecting resources for a trade up or trade for... or just let TT go and keep other long term talent in our pocket if tanking was the goal.

I don't think it was this thread, but I mentioned yesterday that beane using the term resignability was a great way to subtly frame this as a player that was either greedy or at odds with the team instead of simply a team that didn't value the player. It's truly a loaded word in this context that he's used for fan support.

One thing to take into consideration is that we are compiling these lists while very close to what would be considered the absolute worst case scenario for what you'd ever get out of him. If you zoom out and figure the spectrum runs from the rib/calf and bad qb era as low end Sammy (rookie w/ nagging injuries and poor scheme) and the 9 game stretch as his best (best in the league caliber).... and accept that catastrophic injury is risk for anyone (i.e. 2 year lisfranc issues that should recur and are generally freak injuries).... I think he's objectively a top ten WR that's being judged at his lowest possible value by many

are we going to hear about the plan no matter how the next few years go? Is this the new catch phrase defense of any decision that the fan base questions? Hopefully the plans great but you do realize every leader in this 20 year debacle has had a plan? At some point you have to defend the merits of it and it's execution if you are going to point at it.

A lot of those weren't actual injuries... and then some were "listed on the injury report but full participant." I agree with the foot, rib and calf he's been nicked a lot but we don't have to call out every hang nail or sneeze at an OTA

I think we are all arguing it based on talent. He is not a guy that you have to gameplan against because he beats you 1-1 or changes the numbers game for the defense because of the attention he commands ala dez, green, Julio, obj, brown, Hopkins, Demarius, amari, and many of us think Sammy is.... Matthews is a solid guy that got better than expected production based on his situation. More like some of the receivers we've had in the past like Stevie. Is he a top 32 receiver or in the group of 33-64? I dont think that is a distinction most of us care about. He's in the crowd of a lot of 6 of 1 or a half dozen of the other behind those top tier guys. Sammy has shown to have the ability to be in the list everyone names around the league when discussing #1 WRs.

Broken heart?

I think he's simply saying it's hard for a good player to teach someone how to be great. Sammy has had very few opportunities to be led by a player that's been where he is, and there's only so much a lunch pail guy can teach you about being a superstar. That's not to say Sammy ignored everyone simply that there are only so many people in the world that can teach him some of the stuff he needs to learn

Just because a plan exists doesn't mean we all trust it or it's execution Simply having a plan is a pretty low bar, John.

You've watched TT and you are familiar with the WCO and our receivers-- why do you need people to tell you?

To be fair we could have signed anyone we wanted without even discussing those