Thurman#1

Literally zero players? Literally? Yeah, I get all worn out by all the "Trade Edmunds" and "Trade Tre White" threads. Hate to be the grouch, but it sure looked to me like part of that was just that Minny had an absolutely awful game. Yeah, some of it was us playing well, but they came out flatter than the Bonneville Salt Flats. But they legitimately look like they're coming together into a force to be taken seriously.

That was the year his light came on almost at the end of the regular season. He played like the young Manning for most of the season and then in the last few games of the regular season he figured things out, right in the middle of some horrible weather. That Pats game that was the last game of the regular season he looked sensational. Elite is roughly top three to five in the game. Eli certainly doesn't fit there. But neither does his contract. He's the 13th highest paid QB in terms of average salary. That's roughly what he is, IMHO. As I pointed out earlier, it's fair to say that signing a good QB to an NFL-standard contract contract makes everything else harder. But Eli no more than any other QB.

You're either trolling or clueless. Saying McD has proven he has no clue how to build a modern day NFL offense is like saying a woman who's four months pregnant has proven she can't develop a baby to full term. In both cases it's so early that anyone who thinks he can make a final judgment is saying far more about his lack of understanding than he is about McD.

Nah. Pretty much nothing about this is measureable. You can come up with one number but there are hundreds that factor in. It's all opinion. Educated opinion but opinion. Peterman might still be very successful. The odds dipped after that recent game but it's not like Allen passed significantly better than Peterman did under the same circumstances. What Allen did in that game was run better.

Yeah, he needs development. Hopefully development will be enough. It's just nonsense, though, that mental reps don't help. They do, a great deal.

I somewhat agree. But I'd say that the reason he's been a good playoff QB is because when they made the playoffs they had a good team and he was having a good year. He is up and down but it's more season to season, than game to game, IMHO.

Make the best offer and they will come. Make a lower offer and they won't. That's how 95% of players make their minds up about contracts. It's only when the offers are more or less equal that other things come, for most guys.

I'd disagree with that, personally. He's had a long career, and he's been paid for most of it after the first contract. It's somewhat true of every high-paid QB. But I wouldn't say it's more true of Eli than of any other.

No, he's not elite. Never has been. Has never claimed to be. Yes, he's been a top ten QB for most of his career after the first four and half years, though he's also had some bad years when he tried to take the whole team on his shoulders. But he's never been that guy.

That you believe there's any parallel here is, yeah, kind of sad. Thinking Allen should sit isn't saying he's going to be awful. It means he's not yet ready. There's no way to argue in any fashion that Eli is not yet ready.

Yeah, they need to stop examining what is actually happening and make up some stuff that's not happening but is earth-shattering. This is one of the two main takes on reporters: "He's saying what everyone else is saying ... boring" and "He's saying stuff that nobody else is saying, and that proves he's wrong."

SF's scored 17 and 20 offensive points in the past two games. Plus one Pick-six but the offense doesn't get credit for that, obviously. Two TDs and two INTs each of Beathard's two games. I don't think SF's compensated all that well. And yeah, the Bills offensive roster does indeed look pretty close to a total failure right now. It's hard to judge Daboll with this group. Now that they've got a defense, a QB and some salary cap space next year, I'll expect them to bring in some decent guys to surround Allen with. That and learning from this year will hopefully improve things.

1) We were terrific with Fitzy? Acceptable, maybe. Terrific? Not even close. Which year were we terrific with him? The year his TD/INTs were 9/10? The year he was 23/15? The 24/23 year? Or his last here, when he was 24/16? The year his passer rating was 69.7? Or the one after that when he was 81.8? Or the next, 79.1? Or the final one when he soared to 83.3?Terrific is way way overstating it. Yeah, having Fitzy instead of Allen is a major advantage. Hopefully as Allen improves, yeah, that changes, but right now if you someone holds a gun to your head and says, "Win the game or I shoot you," you yank Allen for Fitzy every single time. Same with Stevie Johnson. Stevie was hard to call plays for because he wanted freedom to go whichever way he wanted after his fake, but he was open a lot. So you're saying that the Fitzy-Stevie offense was decent and that proves ... what? They did have better personnel than we have now, at QB in particular. 3) Yeah, I didn't see Phillips coming either. Looks like a brilliant pick. 4) OK, I see it's a scene. But it's an obnoxious sentiment anyway.

This. And for me personally I find it hard to root for the guy. He's great on the field but off it I just don't like him. They're certainly a better team this year with him than without him. But this is a rebuild.

Hmm, how much will we save with KB over Watkins? You do the math, dude, Sammy's under contract for $48 mill over 3 years. KB's under contract for this year only for about $8 mill. The short answer? Not $4M. A ton. And the one admitting defeat is you. You couldn't even bring yourself to mention the players I listed, six or seven of whom were (lousy) starters. I mentioned Preston Brown, Zach Brown, Corey Graham, Miller, Mills, Goodwin (431 yards), Woods (613 yards) and Watkins (430 yards) and Tyrod. No wonder you couldn't answer. Makes me a bit sick to my stomach to type that wave of mediocrity. My work here is done, because you're not even giving serious replies anymore, just unsuccessfully trying to distract and save face.

Both ended up around $5 mill or less, if I remember correctly, but that's missing the point. You're not necessarily in cap trouble when you end up close to the cap for a given year. You're in cap trouble when you're running low on funds for the next year while you're still in this year. And that's how the Bills have been for the last three or four years. And thank goodness Beane and McDermott held their nose closed and swallowed their bitter medicine this year. Some of that dead money this year could've been kicked down the road. They didn't do it, for exactly the reason that they want to clear out future cap as they told the Pegulas they would do. Next year they'll be able to re-sign any players who play well enough to warrant it. They'll be able to bring in a bunch of the low- to medium-priced FAs who can fill holes at WR and OL and elsewhere with capable though not outstanding guys. And they'll be able to do that each year because with them in charge the Bills are finally treating the cap the way the Steelers, Pats, Packers, Ravens, Eagles (and, um, the Panthers) ... the best and most consistent teams ... treat it.

It's not, Scott. Not overblown one tiny little bit. They cut a number of contracts for cap reasons even under Whaley as the pressure mounted. And yeah, they could have kept going while picking up a bunch of other contracts. All they'd have had to do was keep re-negotiating contracts and kicking the can down the road, mortgaging the future and getting closer and closer to another complete purge year like the one that came about as a result of John Butler's overspending. Watkins, Dareus and Glenn would together have cost a ton more than Star and Murphy. Making that exchange would have put them yet further behind the eight ball. Watkins alone, with his 254 yards and 1 touchdown would have cost pretty much the same as Lotulelei and Murphy together over the next three years ... $48 mill over the next three years for Sammy. $22.5 mill over three for Murphy and Lotulelei averages $10 mill a year so his three year cost will be around $30 mill. And that's fine that those guys are starting on Super Bowl contending teams. First, none of those teams would NOT be Super Bowl contending teams without those players. Second and more to the point, those teams have different schemes, they have different coaches, different cultures and different salary cap situations. Know who else is on a Super Bowl contending team? Chris Hogan and Stephon Gilmore. Hell, Gillislee was there last year. Teams that use their cap intelligently can bring in guys who they think will help, as any look at the Patriots over the years will show. And as of next year, the Bills will be one of those teams because they'll have dug their way out of Whaley's overspending.

Do you not get the words "before" and "after"? Do you get confused between Beane and McDermott? Hint: Beane is the one with hair. For what is now the third time, Beane gets credit for what happened after Beane was here. Not before. This ain't long division. Don't know why you're having trouble with it. What you say here is simply butt-stupid and besides has not earthly connection to what I said. Beane wasn't there. He gets no credit. McD was there and by all accounts was in charge. He gets the responsibility, and right now that looks like credit. What? That Beane promised the Pegulas he'd clean it up by the end of this year? That's been reported several times. A super-quick google search produces this: "They fixed the salary cap by taking the dead money medicine in 2018, and are set up to make some moves in the offseason with a ton of cap space. They've also re-tooled much of the staff around the building for a less leaky, and a much more communal team. "Everything that Sean McDermott and Brandon Beane have promised owners Terry and Kim Pegula, they've made it happen." - Joe Buscaglia https://www.wkbw.com/sports/bills/at-long-last-the-buffalo-bills-rebuild-is-here and this and this "Buffalo Bills general manager Brandon Beane told Kim and Terry Pegula that it would take a couple of years to reshape the roster and salary cap to the way it should be when he was hired to run the personnel department. Look ahead to the 2019 salary cap space available and you can see the fruits of those labors. "The Bills have shed a few massive contracts over the last two seasons, in many cases gaining assets in the process. But a lot of the corresponding cap hits have come in 2017 and 2018. The dead money on the deals - the remaining signing bonus money that hadn’t yet been accounted for in the salary cap structure - is all accelerated when the player is released or retires. In 2018, that number is almost 47 million dollars. It’s $20 million more than the next team on the list! "But in fitting with the vision for the team, with Josh Allen in place this year to learn the ropes, Buffalo will hit the ground with a ton of cap space in 2019 to surround their young quarterback with established talent. That dead cap money will all be gone. "With the yoke of dead money off the cap, Buffalo has a whopping $76 million in salary cap space for 2019, second-most in the league." https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2018/7/3/17530342/buffalo-bills-2019-salary-cap-space-is-massive-marcell-dareus-eric-wood-tyrod-taylor Took me roughly five minutes even though I knew I didn't remember which press conferences I'd heard it in. Was it really too difficult for you?

Oh, I answered that post because I thought it was Orton. If I'd realized it was you, I wouldn't have bothered answering. And you're right, your post was indeed some quality crap.

Right, those all happened with Beane. So they're on his head. But it's you who keeps screaming on about Beane and at the same time whining endlessly about Mahomes and Watson. You're the one who is screwing up the time frames here. It's real real simple. Beane is responsible for the moves after he joined us. But not for the ones before.

Oh, yeah, they had a ton of talent. Yeah, I remember those days, before Beane and McDermott came in, when this team was like a playoff juggernaut. Oh, for the good old days of 2016 when your three top receivers were frightening defenses all over the league by throwing up Madden-like stat years of production like 430 yards (Watkins), 613 yards (Woods) and 431 yards (Goodwin). Oh, and when you remember we had Percy Harvin and his hamstring on top of all those riches ... Yeah, we roamed the earth like titans back then. And all three guys have maintained their awesome levels of production on other teams as well. Oh, for the days when we had John Miller and Jordan Mills on the right side of the OL. Oh, wait. Yup, and remember that awesome defense? Wow, no telling how good we'd be if only we had starters like them ... Adolphus Washington, Preston Brown, Zach Brown, Corey Graham with Jerel Worthy and Corbin Bryant picking up DL snaps and a gimpy Aaron Williams being spelled by Ihedigbo. Dude, that team was mediocre even before you get around to mentioning Tyrod Taylor, and that mediocre team was crammed up against the salary cap like a team at the end of a Super Bowl window. That's what ended up causing them to let go some pretty good players, such as Gilmore. Throw in the fact that they wanted to keep Eric Wood and Incognito but couldn't and it's ridiculous to think that team was a few pieces away.

No, it's not on Beane's shoulders. What's on Beane's shoulders is what happened after he became GM. Many or most of the changes you're talking about happened before he got here. And no, stupid posts are absolutely NOT his fault. They are the fault of posters who don't get it. What don't they get? That we're a year and 5 weeks into a rebuild which will not be able to be judged till 3 - 5 years in. People who try to judge now are being clueless. And no, that's not Beane's fault in any way. As for the accelerated cap, yup, they're the ones who accelerated it. Precisely because they'd been told to completely clean up the cap mess by the owners. Fans love to ignore that, but GMs who enjoy their jobs can't ignore what they're told by the Pegulas of the world. They accelerated the cap hits because they'd been told to clear up the cap by the end of this year. Not before. By the end of this year. All those accelerated cap hits hurt this year but will be totally off the books by the owners deadline. Again, fans who want to make final judgments now are simply part of their own little process, in this case the process of "not getting it." And no, that's not Beane's fault.

Yup, acting like they "got it right" makes absolutely no sense ... anymore than pretending they got it wrong. What they've done is started a process. If you become a GM, great, do it your way and we'll evaluate. But in the meantime, if they don't want Dareus on their team after seeing him for months, that's not a mistake. It's a choice which has a long way to go before it will be proven correct or incorrect. If they build a terrific team, their process will have been proven successful. If their team has been proven still sucky after four or five years, their method will have been proven unsuccessful. Putting together groups like the one you have above in your third paragraph is an academic exercise at best. You can't compare a list of names to another list of names and find out if they're better than another list. It's whether that group of guys can play well ... together ... with that coach ... under the coach's system ... within that team's salary cap constrictions. We now know that Dareus can't play for McD. We also know that the owner asked our GM to get the salary cap mess cleaned up by the end of this year, impossible with your list, which is almost certainly why Woods, Watkins, Dareus, Gilmore and a few others aren't here. But arguing anyone is dead wrong at this point is ... well, it's dead wrong. We'll have a much better idea in a year or two. Now, we don't know. That draft was Tre White, Zay, Dion Dawkins, and Milano. Those are three terrific value picks even without Zay, who still might turn out to be a good one if we're lucky and he keeps developing.

I don't get the hate either. Patience is necessary. But pointing out only the better part of the season and ignoring the rest makes no more sense than hating.

It's the fault of being still early in a rebuild ... a rebuild during which the owner exacted a promise to clean up the salary cap morass by the end of this year. That dead cap space looks awful this year and terrific next year. I personally don't see a lot of gaping holes on the defense. Certainly still room for improvement, but "gaping holes"? I don't see it on defense. On offense, yeah. That tends to happen, though, that a new coach prioritizes the side of the ball that he specializes in. And yeah, Smith-Schuster would've been an improvement over Zay, or so it looks so far. But the rest of that draft looks damn good. Tre' White at #27? Dawkins in the 3rd, trading up to get him? Looks very smart in retrospect. Milano in the 5th? Even Peterman in the 5th might easily turn out to be a good pick if he ends up as a long-time backup, here or elsewhere, though it's far from sure that will happen. You can't blame them for the Zay Jones pick without also praising them for White, Dawkins and Milano. And that was all before Beane even came on board.