GaryPinC

Cons: Put your health in the hands of our offensive line. Retire or be retired? Hmmmm.

I honestly think part of the reason we traded up for Watkins is because of his work ethic, attitude, and passion he brings to the field. As a coach, I can say you covet those rare players who elevate their focus and effort and put it all on the line when the game's outcome is in doubt. Sammy seems like he's one of those types of people, and we should see that once he settles in and gets a decent QB. I think that's part of Whaley's gamble and I respect him for it. Hopefully being around Heinz Ward, Polamalu, and Rothelisberger taught him that appreciation.

Yea, that's not good but Schwartz is a passionate coach so probably reacted without thinking. I personally think how a coach manages the clock says a lot about how good of a gameday coach he is. Are his players prepared (constantly wasting time outs if not), with less than 2 minutes left how many seconds are wasted? One great example for me involved the Pettine and the Browns against Atlanta. Driving for the winning field goal they completed a 15 yard pass play and got the ball to the Atlanta 30 with less than 20 seconds left when they used their last time out. Announcers were going nuts about how you save it for the kick. Pettine used it to draw up a short pass play and make sure the offense hustled up to spike the ball with 5 seconds left. Gave his kicker a 36 yard field goal instead of 47.

The 3 or 4 games before that opposing defenses started keying on Hoyer's tendencies to neutralize the passing game too. That's the one thing I can fault him and QB coach for not coming up with a solution to. But the offense was diverse and well executed by the players. I was really impressed with the job Shanahan did with it, because you could really see how he had a plan of attack.

I thought Kyle did a fantastic job as OC last year. Nice mixes of runs vs passes, definitely trying to keep the defense off balance and tailored to strengths. For the most part the plays were crisp and not sloppy. Until Manziel got in there. Yah, Schwartz HC with Kyle as OC and either Pep or someone Jimmy wants is sounding pretty good to me.

Thanks much for digging this up. It's very worth noting that this is the lions' own website and a multitude of players with some strong words supporting Schwartz. IMO it points to the Detroit FO deciding to make a change for change's sake and less about Schwartz's ability to coach. Schwartz should be one of our leading HC candidates for all the reasons indicated in this thread. Our own players talk about hanging on his legs and chaining themselves to his car in hopes he doesn't leave. That is not the usual PR talk. Our franchise has some connections to Detroit. Talk to them, get some scoop on what happened up there. Our FO should every effort into vetting Schartz as HC. How was his gameday decisions and clock management? Anyone on TBD live in/follow Detroit during his tenure there? There's a lot of good things about this guy so get the full story behind the numbers and make an intelligent decision.

FWIW, When news of the altercation between Marrone and Whaley broke on Sept 5, LaCanfora said the "just go ahead and fire me" quote was thrown by Marrone." Tim Graham put up these up on twitter around 9:30am: https://twitter.com/bytimgraham/status/507929216940519424 https://twitter.com/bytimgraham/status/507929845351710720 Later he wrote this article: http://bills.buffalonews.com/2014/09/05/brandon-marrone-deny-report-of-spat/ It could be circumstantial but looking at Graham's first twitter and Russ's quote in the news article, I assume Russ later decided to publicly acknowledge the practice altercation after first remaining anonymous to Tim in the morning. Both twitter statements imply someone with very good knowledge of the altercation and the dinner afterwards. I assume Russ is one of Tim's "sources" for these reasons.

I'm not. Given Ralph's situation, what self-respecting coach would sign on without this type of guarantee? Ralph could have died in 2013 and the new owner flushed the entire front office or brought in a management group that Marrone didn't like or was too restricting. So many unknowns almost 2 years ago I feel something like this contract had to be offered to get a top candidate.

Lack of consistency in the front office sucks ass! But if Marrone pulled a power play and quit then he's dead to me. He was a far from perfect coach, though I thought he had some promise. If he really is smart he'll go back to the college game, I think it fits his controlling coaching style better. It'll be interesting to see what happens to Whaley and Brandon. From the moment the Pegulas got here, Brandon's seems very giddy and smug about his relationship with them (IMO). I like Brandon but have to believe there's a reason the raiders are mentioning him. Lot of PC PR but if he is willing to publicly mention a dissatisfaction with the organization he takes action shortly thereafter. And I do believe he ultimately cares about building a winner. I do want to keep Whaley though and am worried about it if Polian installs his son here. Just hoping Terry and Kim get this right, we have the talent to move upwards.

Really? Everything bad was on offense and only Marrone's fault, everything good was on defense and Schwartz's credit? I think Marrone played a role on fourth down calls for sure, but exactly how much did he run the offense vs Hackett? I would appreciate an explanation of your direct knowledge as I have no firm idea. Marrone seems like a guy that lets his people do their jobs. Quarterback audibles and check downs with wide open receivers, Marrone's fault also? Orton deciding in the weeks up to the Denver game he didn't want to give his all to win anymore. I recall you directly posting that Orton wasn't throwing the same as he has in the past, more checkdowns less chances downfield. All Marrone's fault too? Crappy play calling or a bailing, self-protecting quarterback? Or defensive adjustments? The defense had a lousy game against Oakland, especially after Dareus left. Ultimately Marrone's fault right? Just because our offense was ineffective doesn't mean they weren't playing hard. How many serious injuries did we have to our O-lineman? And guard Mike Williams would have reinjured his back regardless of offensive effectiveness. But overall not many, and to me injuries occur there when guys aren't playing hard. If you truly believe that the solid locker room and consistent effort on the field only involved the defense we will have to agree to disagree. To me, it's an important measure of our head coach's effectiveness. In the past, no way we win that last game against the Patriots even against second half scrubs. Credit Marrone and the offense for taking control of the game in the first half when the starters were still in. Do you really believe we should can Marrone, blow up both systems, the locker room, and team morale? Keep that lack of coaching continuity going? This guy had the guts to pull EJ and fight to get Orton brought in, who despite his decision to retire, was arguably the best option available to us this year.

I don't think Marrone refuses to fire Hackett, otherwise he's seen as a fraud because he always preaches best chance of winning. Thing is, I think Nate Hackett's playcalling improved (though still not good enough) the last quarter of the season and he has a lot of passion for the job. I simply think he needs to learn from an experienced NFL OC guru for a year or two. Chances are he gets let go, especially when PR savvy Russ Brandon publicly questions the playcalling. There's a lot of fluff corporate-speak that comes out of Russ's mouth, but when he voices displeasure concerning the Bills, changes get made. I don't get why so many here want to get rid of Marrone? It sounds like there's a good locker room and he consistently has this team playing good, hard-nosed football. For the first time in I-don't-know-when, in-game injuries happened noticeably more to our opponents instead of us. This year, I didn't have to cringe always watching other teams run over us when the game's on the line. I do believe he is building a successful culture behind the scenes. I think Brandon Spikes' words about enjoying his time here are heartfelt and not purely contract motivated. It's clear Marrone got a little too full of himself and over-tinkered with the O-line and was too conservative on 4th downs at times. He's a young NFL head coach with an unreliable offense/QB to influence his decisions so give him a chance to learn. Hopefully in his 360's players are empowered enough to mention going for it more on fourth down. This is a team that hasn't achieved anything yet, but opponents don't want to face. The last time I felt that way was in '87. Yeah, let's blow up the system, locker room and get rid of our 2nd year head coach working with an unreliable QB situation. Makes perfect sense.

Mallett would be my top choice also. Looked like he can read a defense and play in this league watching him against Cleveland. Big unknown is that muscle tear affecting his arm strength, but worth taking a chance on. Hoyer, no way. Not the strongest arm and predictable tendencies. Draft one also.

Awfully bold statements about Pears' QB abilities! ;-) I get what you're saying about Orton and trust what you've seen of him in the past but also wonder if for whatever reason he's just declining. Didn't do training camp and wonder how much he works out and takes care of himself? As I said that slide on 3rd and 2 spoke volumes to me about his heart being in it. He had at least another step or 2 before a defender caught him so take those and dive forward and try and reach that first down! Even if he didn't make it I couldn't fault the effort. What he did showed me his first priority out there is to protect himself before trying to make a critical play for the team. That compromises aggressiveness and could be at the root of his dropoff.

I kind of think it's a combination of things. Hoyer started off great in Cleveland then the bottom fell out. I think part of it is that once there's enough scouting reports and film out there, opposing defenses really clamp down on QB tendencies. With backups like Orton and Hoyer they don't have the talent to make certain situational throws consistently and I think that's what catches up to them. I know that's how Searcy got the INT's with Hoyer, just sat on his favorite pattern. Then for Orton you have an immobile QB who can't throw on the run with a bad offensive line and I think at this point in his career he's a bit gunshy because of it. He may have a competitive, aggressive streak but his slide on that 3rd and 2 said it all to me. It seems preposterous to me that coaching is making him this way. I understand Marrone and/or Hackett may coach Orton to make safe throws but plays are run with a variety of patterns and a progression of reads. Even if his first read is the short pattern and he throws to a wide open deep pattern is the coach going to try and correct that? Coaches call the plays but QB's have the final decision.

It's not dirty at all! Wood never lowered his head, he dropped his body down and exploded his shoulder through Clay Matthew's chest. Wood's helmet never contacted Matthews at all. The buffalo rumblings link has 2 angles that show it was a good hit. I get what you are saying about Woods targeting Matthews rather than targeting someone closer to the play, but he wasn't dirty with his hit. It may have been payback for something else, but I am sick of the past years of our team having the opposition's will physically imposed on them. It's nice to see us doing it for a change! If they can keep it up I'm really looking forward to that Patriots game.

If true, maybe Doug should let her do press conferences for him. Alternatively, it'd be fun to watch a reporter ask Marrone about the incident this week.

Probably a good time for him to buy some more fracking land...

With all the concussion problems the NFL is facing, I believe the refs are taking steps to protect the receivers a la quarterbacks. If they see a reciever's head snap sideways or backwards while trying to make a catch it's going to get called even if contact is made with the shoulder around high chest level. Even if it's technically a legal hit it will still be unsportsmanlike because the defender is trying to hit a defenseless receiver as hard as he can. It may be changing the game but I do think it needs to be done. Let the DB hit the reciever at the tucked level of the ball or use his hands to get it loose if he wants to cause an incompletion or turnover. When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's I don't think the CB's were as adept at using their hands to knock the ball away from a receiver as today. Seems like much more of a coached skill these days. I know when I played in high school DB's were coached to to tee off on the receiver and very little emphasis on using hands to force an incompletion.

I agree with everything you are saying but if true that Johnny Football doesn't even know their offense yet, you can't put him in there. He'll have no respect as a leader. I thought he was further along than that. It's obvious the scouts have picked up on Hoyer's tendencies and Searcy did too last week because by the second half he was sitting on all the routes he knew Hoyer would go to. Pettine and Shanahan need to retool their offense a bit and coach up Hoyer to change his tendancies. And Manziel gets the direct message that a few glory plays doesn't annoint him starter, he has to put more work in. Once the Browns are out of contention than Manziel is in line for playing time but only if he can correctly call the offense.

Yea, sorry. It wasn't in reference to your grounding point (thanks for that, by the way!) but when I looked at your link and saw the tuck rule up there I did a double take and wanted to set that part straight since it's relevant to the thread.

It's actually not. Look at my link with the red writing in Section 1 article 1 (b) in the first paragraph compared to your document. That's where they pulled out the tuck rule.

Actually, that's the rule from 2013 which still incorporates the tuck rule. Here's the 2014 version which conveniently has the rule change in red: http://static.nfl.co...Pass_Fumble.pdf To summarize, there has to be clear evidence that Johnny was pulling the ball back towards his body and the replay official felt he wasn't so he overturned the call. There is no intentional grounding because when it struck off Kyle Williams' helmet it became a batted ball which negates a grounding call. The thing why the officials are wrong is because Johnny started the pass and quickly dropped his arm angle right after he started to bring his arm forward. I understand the refs looked at the play and saw the ball swinging out towards Kyle and decided it was not coming back towards the QB but by dropping his elbow just after he started his throw that downward angle to shorten his swing was bringing the ball back towards his body. It's there on replay. The other annoying thing is that I swear I saw the play from a camera in the back of the endzone and it was much more obvious from that angle. Anybody else see this or have access to that shot or am I remembering wrong? Two things that should come out of this: If the QB changes the angle of his arm swing that should constitute a fumble if it gets knocked loose and any QB looking to avoid intentional grounding inside the box should bounce a pass off the defender to negate the possibility of a flag. Some version of the rule will always remain as it is there to protect the QB's arm while in a throwing motion.

I hear you. It's easy to talk in generalities because generally you'll always be right but that doesn't speak to the mentality behind the decision making which is my point. Also, it's not an easy decision for Marrone when we're down late in the game as evidenced by the 4th quarter of the Miami game. Miami was moving the ball decently most of the game against our defense and IMO with 9+ minutes left we needed to take a chance on that 4th down he decided to punt away. Wrong message to send your team, Doug. As far as a 1st quarter 4th and 3 from the 50, let's say we started with it on the 2 and have overcome multiple penalties, including multiple holding calls to move the ball out to our 43. It's the first signs of life our offense has shown and every play we're getting 4+ yards a play but penalties are killing us and we're already losing to Denver 10-0. Let's say after a 1st and 10 from the 43 we had more penalties that moved us back to a second and 25 but we ended up fourth and 3 from the 50. As the head coach, Denver has already beaten your defense twice and we're trying to sort that out, but right now you are moving the ball well and you know their defense will make adjustments after they get off the field. You're playing Payton Manning. No question old Marrone punts in that situation but your offense is finding a rhythm and chomping at the bit. I would like to see a new Marrone go for it in that situation.

I disagree. Marrone needs to challenge our offense at certain points in the game to dig deep and make a play to keep a drive alive. At certain points of the game, our offense needs to stomp on the throats of the opposition to break their will, momentum and take control of the game. Field goals and trying to pin them deep doesn't cut it long term. How can you task your offense to come up with a string of positive plays/drives when we are losing late in a critical game if you don't have the confidence to take chances when we're winning and a touchdown will break the opposition? It shows the utmost confidence in your players and they will relish the opportunity. Do it intelligently, do it to challenge your offense to improve themselves, and do it to instill an attitude and confidence. Plus, we have the defense to cover it if they can't get it done on occasion. Kudos to Aaron Williams for being willing to discuss it publicly recently. I know it goes against the team and handling it in the locker room but Marrone needs to change and I would rather not have another coach fired to start the cycle over again.