Typical cheap Wilson move

[Magox]

Again, last season was Brandon's first as GM - I don't think anyone was ready to induct Polian into the HOF in his 2nd year. In fact, Bills fans were extremely unimpressed with Polian in his first season as GM, as the Bills finished 2-14 for the 2nd consecutive year. They went 4-12 in his 2nd year, then 7-9 in his 3rd, before things all came together and the Bills dynasty of the late 80's/early 90s was finally in bloom.

 

So PLEASE - at least let Russ Brandon finish his 2nd year on the job before condemning him to mediocrity.

Based on what we have seen in the last 18 months, no one can rationally comdemn him to mediocrity up to now.

 

Period.

[716]

Google me this. It's not wilson, it's not the front office and most of the player positions have turned over several times in 10 years. Who do you blame for the consistent failure over that time period? Maybe it's the fault of the fans who complain about it.

 

My bad. I was a little drunk when I decided to make my debut. I apparently misread John's comments. I thought he was blaming Brandon for our abysmal performance of the last decade.

 

I totally agree that Ralph is this organization's problem. He, as the owner, is solely responsible for putting together the front office personnel,whether it be via hiring or firings, & in turn, the front office has let us, the fans, down for a very long time. I will however give him credit for trying to right the ship by bring in Marv, & I personally feel that Russ is doing a pretty decent job as our pseudo GM.

 

It just really, really bothers me when people claim that Ralph is cheap when it comes to players and also when Brandon is demonize as our GM because he's a PR/money guy. Especially when he is just starting out. Notice I italicized players....

[716]

Welcome aboard! Don't worry. Dumber things will come up. The trick is not being the one to start a thread on 'em.

 

Thanks. I will do my best not to start a thread such as this. I know how brutal you guys can be

[BuffaloBill]

Thanks. I will do my best not to start a thread such as this. I know how brutal you guys can be

 

 

No worries ... good to toughen up early. You will be fine.

[Tarrytown]

who is runyon?

 

you are funny

[birdog1960]

The failure of the Rad Sox for so many years had nothing to do with bad management or lack of talent - unlike the Bills 10-year drought you point to, the Sox were almost always 'in the hunt', only to end up on the losing side in the playoffs due to a twist of fate, the 'Curse of the Bambino', a fluke play like Billy Buckner's, or stroke of luck by some jerk like like Bucky Dent or Aaron Boone.

 

And both Polian and Pioli relied on the draft more than veteran acquisitions to build their dynasties - in 2007, 19 of Indy's 22 starters came from draft choices, while 15 of New England's were draft picks. Dynasties are built thru the draft, not by overpaying for aging veterans whose talents are on the decline.

 

No doubt the Bills have had bad management over the 10-year playoff drought. I'm just taking issue with your statement that they have a bad front office today - that is entirely unknown, as Brandon is only in his 2nd year as GM. Under Russ Brandon's leadership, we may very well be witnessing the beginnings of the next Bills dynasty - we'll have to wait and see.

 

It's way too early to say Brandon's not a good GM - in fact, so far I'd say all evidence points to the contrary.

Sorry, can't let you get away with that one. If management had nothing to do with the Sox not winning the World Series (and it was due to bad luck) how can you credit Epstein for their long awaited success and then use him as an example of Brandon's potential. Can't have it both ways. I agree it's too early to judge brandon. But even if he turns out to be the next Polian, why risk the chance of another losing era on an unknown in the first place? Wouldn't it be wiser to spend on a known winner? My comment about paying for proven experienced people rather than gambling on unknowns referred to front office positions including this choice. Finally the use of aging veterans (TO?) is not rare as a temporizing measure even on successful teams. I think the Patriots did that a few times in the last decade(Seau, Moss, Taylor, Harrison, Dillon)

[The Senator]

Sorry, can't let you get away with that one. If management had nothing to do with the Sox not winning the World Series (and it was due to bad luck) how can you credit Epstein for their long awaited success and then use him as an example of Brandon's potential. Can't have it both ways.

Whoa - get away with what? Not trying to "have it both ways" - as far as their management having nothing to do with the Boston's World Series drought, the Red Sox haven't had a playoff or talent drought - only an unbelievably long and supernatural series of bad breaks - until 2004, that is. (You're not blaming Red Sox management for the Bucky Dent's 3-run homer in the '78 AL East tie-breaker, or the Buckner fiasco in the '86 World Series, or Aaron Boone's walk-off run in the 2003 ALCS, are you?) The Sox have been 'in the hunt', or in the playoffs almost yearly - even before Epstein - so there's really no comparison between the Bills playoff drought and the Red Sox. I simply threw out Theo Epstein as an example of a young (even younger than Brandon), unknown, and unproven GM with a short resume, who went on to achieve amazing success. That's all.

I agree it's too early to judge brandon. But even if he turns out to be the next Polian, why risk the chance of another losing era on an unknown in the first place? Wouldn't it be wiser to spend on a known winner? My comment about paying for proven experienced people rather than gambling on unknowns referred to front office positions including this choice.

Then I'd have to disagree - particularly since Brandon really does seem to be doing quite well as GM, so far. It's always a crap-shoot - even with a so-called proven winner. (How'd Steve Spurrier do as a head coach in Washington?

Finally the use of aging veterans (TO?) is not rare as a temporizing measure even on successful teams. I think the Patriots did that a few times in the last decade(Seau, Moss, Taylor)

As have the Bills, with Terrell Owens, and (tried) with Pisa Tinoisamoa. Just makes no sense to bring on an aging, injured vet like Runyan - which is how this whole thread started - just because he was a passable OT for a while, a few years back. I'd have to chalk up not signing Runyan as another good decision by Brandon & Co. Again, dynasties - like Polian's Bills and Colts, and Pioli's cheatriettes* - are built MAINLY thru the draft, and that's what it looks like the Bills are doing as well.

[Alphadawg7]

Your examples go to the heart of the argument. Why gamble on an unknown, unproven talent when established, albeit more expensive talent is available. The failure of the red sox for so many years speaks to the possibility of poor management over the decades more than a fortuitous good find of a capable but unproven GM. Same conclusion could be drawn of Polian. Even a blind squirrel will eventually find a nut. Why not just pay top dollar for a proven top prospect like the most consistently successful sports franchises do?

 

Please name one big name GM that was available over Russ? The handful of great ones are all under contract with their teams...the ones available were ones that were fired...so I fail to see where you wanted us to spend big on a GM. Pioli is the only one, and he was always going to the chiefs or staying in NE...

[birdog1960]

Please name one big name GM that was available over Russ? The handful of great ones are all under contract with their teams...the ones available were ones that were fired...so I fail to see where you wanted us to spend big on a GM. Pioli is the only one, and he was always going to the chiefs or staying in NE...

Because Kansas City is so much nicer than Buffalo? I suspect money talks.

[The Senator]

Because Kansas City is so much nicer than Buffalo? I suspect money talks.

So let's wait and see how Pioli does in KC (right now he's 0-2, one loss being to Oakland), compare it to how Brandon's Bills do, and I guess we'll know if you're right - that is, if spending more money on a known guy like Pioli is smarter than going with Russ Brandon.

[nucci]

So let's wait and see how Pioli does in KC (right now he's 0-2, one loss being to Oakland), compare it to how Brandon's Bills do, and I guess we'll know if you're right - that is, if spending more money on a known guy like Pioli is smarter than going with Russ Brandon.

Pioli's acquisition of and contract given to Cassell is very questionable at this point.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Your examples go to the heart of the argument. Why gamble on an unknown, unproven talent when established, albeit more expensive talent is available. The failure of the red sox for so many years speaks to the possibility of poor management over the decades more than a fortuitous good find of a capable but unproven GM. Same conclusion could be drawn of Polian. Even a blind squirrel will eventually find a nut. Why not just pay top dollar for a proven top prospect like the most consistently successful sports franchises do?

Coming to this late birdog so sorry if I missed something earlier that invalidates what I'm going to say (didn't want to slog through all five pages).

 

As to the bolded sentence above, the last time we did that, it was Tom Donahoe...he had a great reputation and was ousted in Pittsburgh due to losing a power struggle to Bill Cowher. But his credentials and reputation were sterling. And Ralph paid him quite well.

[TheChimp]

Wilson and his men deserve CREDIT for what they're doing with this O-Line, not criticism.

[birdog1960]

So let's wait and see how Pioli does in KC (right now he's 0-2, one loss being to Oakland), compare it to how Brandon's Bills do, and I guess we'll know if you're right - that is, if spending more money on a known guy like Pioli is smarter than going with Russ Brandon.

Judged on 2 games?. I hope they are both successful-KC's not in our division ... but I will be interested to compare at 3-4 years of equal time at the helm. I've found that you rarely get more than you pay for and sometimes get less. Perhaps, your experience is different.

[The Senator]

Judged on 2 games?

I'm not judging Pioli on 2 games - that's why I said, "So let's wait and see how Pioli does in KC (right now he's 0-2, one loss being to Oakland), compare it to how Brandon's Bills do, and I guess we'll know if you're right."

 

You must have just skipped ove the "let's wait and see" part - or want only to wait and see how Pioli does, not Brandon.

 

As you said, three to four years would be a good 'wait and see' period - one that apparently you're perfectly willing to give Pioli, but not Brandon.

 

I hope they are both successful-KC's not in our division ... but I will be interested to compare at 3-4 years of equal time at the helm. I've found that you rarely get more than you pay for and sometimes get less. Perhaps, your experience is different.

Really? I couldn't care less how Pioli does in KC - all I care about is the Bills.

 

But just to hammer the final nails in your argument, as SJBF pointed out, we paid a ton of $$$$ for Donahoe, whose reputation was impeccable - the Steelers won Superbowl titles in '78 & '79 while TD was their director of football ops, ferchrissakes. How'd spending all that money on that 'big-name' 'proven-commodity' turn out for us?

 

And, as nucci pointed out, Pioli's Cassell trade and huge$$$ contract reeks of belicheat* unloading an inferior QB with an exorbitant price tag on a naive GM - kind of like what he did to us (Donahoe) with Bledsoe.

 

And finally, as far as 'rarely getting more than you pay for', it actually happens quite often in the NFL - just ask Jason Peters. (Conversely, just look at how much money was WASTED on 'established verterans' like Derrick Dockery, Langston Walker, etc.) Take a look at the Bills payroll and you'll see that we're going to have a good many underpaid players on this year's roster - probably because Brandon & Co. are doing such a fine job in the short time he's been in charge...

 

 

GO BILLSSS!!!!

REVERSE THE CURSE!!!!!

 

 

[HT02]

For all of you 16 year old morons who attacked my understanding of football and doubt whether Ralph Wilson is playing you for a fool by be a cheapskate who has ruined this franchise a few questions:

 

When was the last time you saw a Bills play-off game?

 

Who fired Bill Polian?

 

Where is Jason Peters these days?

 

We have an injury prone QB yet who is his back-up? (Is he a better QB than Garcia or Vick?)

 

You think the Bills are a play-off team this year?

 

Who's our coach stupid? Why do you think this ineffective loser is still coaching after being outcoached in most games last year? Is he better than say, I don't know Cowher, Shanahan, Rex Ryan or Eric Mangini?

 

Get your head out of the sand stupid Ralph Wilson makes every move based on money, he signed TO because he knew it would sell ticket while an all-pro lineman like Peters would just make the team better. I liked the TO signing but winning isn't why he was signed. Let's see how good this new line is when we face a real defense. The Patriot and Bucc d's are awful.

[The_Philster]

For all of you 16 year old morons who attacked my understanding of football and doubt whether Ralph Wilson is playing you for a fool by be a cheapskate who has ruined this franchise a few questions:

 

When was the last time you saw a Bills play-off game?

 

Who fired Bill Polian?

 

Where is Jason Peters these days?

 

We have an injury prone QB yet who is his back-up? (Is he a better QB than Garcia or Vick?)

 

You think the Bills are a play-off team this year?

 

Who's our coach stupid? Why do you think this ineffective loser is still coaching after being outcoached in most games last year? Is he better than say, I don't know Cowher, Shanahan, Rex Ryan or Eric Mangini?

 

Get your head out of the sand stupid Ralph Wilson makes every move based on money, he signed TO because he knew it would sell ticket while an all-pro lineman like Peters would just make the team better. I liked the TO signing but winning isn't why he was signed. Let's see how good this new line is when we face a real defense. The Patriot and Bucc d's are awful.

A few things

People attacked your understanding of football and the ignorance in your post...you weren't attacked personally...calling people idiots or stupid is breaking the rules that you agreed to follow when you signed up here

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/index.php?act=boardrules

Polian has been gone for over a decade because his temper and mouth got him into trouble. Let me just clue into how things work in the real world. No matter how good you are at your job, if you start fights with people who rank higher in the organization than you, you'll be out on your ass. Go ahead and try starting a fight at work...see if I'm wrong

Peters was the worst LT in the league last year because he was lazy and didn't care to do his job...!@#$ him.

We've been wanting a WR to take pressure off Evans ever since we lost Moulds...when you only have 1 starting caliber WR, it's bad for the offense and the team. A LT who gives up more sacks than any other LT in the league? Not making the team better. Ralph has proven time and again that he's not cheap when it comes to players...for you to continue to say otherwise is ignorant to say the least.

[birdog1960]

I'm not judging Pioli on 2 games - that's why I said, "So let's wait and see how Pioli does in KC (right now he's 0-2, one loss being to Oakland), compare it to how Brandon's Bills do, and I guess we'll know if you're right."

 

You must have just skipped ove the "let's wait and see" part - or want only to wait and see how Pioli does, not Brandon.

 

As you said, three to four years would be a good 'wait and see' period - one that apparently you're perfectly willing to give Pioli, but not Brandon.

 

 

Really? I couldn't care less how Pioli does in KC - all I care about is the Bills.

 

But just to hammer the final nails in your argument, as SJBF pointed out, we paid a ton of $$$$ for Donahoe, whose reputation was impeccable - the Steelers won Superbowl titles in '78 & '79 while TD was their director of football ops, ferchrissakes. How'd spending all that money on that 'big-name' 'proven-commodity' turn out for us?

 

And, as nucci pointed out, Pioli's Cassell trade and huge$$$ contract reeks of belicheat* unloading an inferior QB with an exorbitant price tag on a naive GM - kind of like what he did to us (Donahoe) with Bledsoe.

 

And finally, as far as 'rarely getting more than you pay for', it actually happens quite often in the NFL - just ask Jason Peters. (Conversely, just look at how much money was WASTED on 'established verterans' like Derrick Dockery, Langston Walker, etc.) Take a look at the Bills payroll and you'll see that we're going to have a good many underpaid players on this year's roster - probably because Brandon & Co. are doing such a fine job in the short time he's been in charge...

 

 

GO BILLSSS!!!!

REVERSE THE CURSE!!!!!

 

 

Top international corporations often attract top managemant talent by offering big money (some say too big) to lure them from their most recent conquest. Most times it works out, sometimes it doesn't. But they're on top of the world and keep using this model to stay there. Why shouldn't the Bills?

Success speaks for itself and is usually defined in the context of "what have you done for me lately".. When Donahoe was shown the door after 2 consecutive losing seasons with the steelers their ownership chose the latest "it" guy, colbert, as his successor. Some of the luster was off the penny on Doahoe but we took him,instead. I don't really know, but I can't imagine he was as widely sought after at this time as were say Belichek or even pioli during their time as the "it" guy.. The point is, successful organization usually realize that top pay for a proven leader is a necessary but not sufficient condition for continued prosperity. Ralph doesn't seem to agree (as far as success at the football level).

[The Senator]

Top international corporations often attract top managemant talent by offering big money (some say too big) to lure them from their most recent conquest. Most times it works out, sometimes it doesn't. But they're on top of the world and keep using this model to stay there. Why shouldn't the Bills?

Success speaks for itself and is usually defined in the context of "what have you done for me lately".. When Donahoe was shown the door after 2 consecutive losing seasons with the steelers their ownership chose the latest "it" guy, colbert, as his successor. Some of the luster was off the penny on Doahoe but we took him,instead. I don't really know, but I can't imagine he was as widely sought after at this time as were say Belichek or even pioli during their time as the "it" guy..

I honestly don't know how to respond, since you now seem to be meandering a bit...

 

The point is, successful organization usually realize that top pay for a proven leader is a necessary but not sufficient condition for continued prosperity.

"A necessary not not sufficient condition for continued prosperity"???? Huh????

 

Ralph doesn't seem to agree (as far as success at the football level).

Nor apparently does Bob Kraft, who, despite having one of the lowest payrolls in the NFL, attained 4 conference titles and 3 Superbowl wins in this decade.

[Offside Number 76]

"A necessary not not sufficient condition for continued prosperity"???? Huh????

 

The post was "necessary but not sufficient...." He means that while top pay for a proven leader is a condition of success, it is not, by itself, going to bring success; other ingredients are needed.