Oct 2002 - The story of Dick Jauron "Coward"-gate

[1billsfan]

I'm not defending dick jauron at all. I'm pointing out the error in BillfromNYc's argument. If your head hasn't firmly lodged in your ass, you'd see it was a comparison between Levy and Polian and their drafting strategies. Nowhere did i mention dick jauron. But you've never been one to deal in facts and/or reality, so why start now?

 

You'd have to be a real jackass to not understand that the main reason for the Bills sucking since the Polian glory years has been the ridiculous amount of high draft resources used on defensive backs at the expense of the offensive and defensive lines. I'll let you try to figure out where that leaves you.

[Bill from NYC]

You'd have to be a real jackass to not understand that the main reason for the Bills sucking since the Polian glory years has been the ridiculous amount of high draft resources used on defensive backs at the expense of the offensive and defensive lines. I'll let you try to figure out where that leaves you.

 

He is a very smart kid, and I am at a loss as to why he doesn't understand this.

 

Look, I know quite well that there were quarterback issues, and this certainly didn't help us at all. Still, weak lines take away the ability to play fundamental football. This is the NFL, not touch football in the streets of Buffalo or NYC. Teams exploit weaknesses really quickly in this league, and for years we have been a team which fields weak sisters up front, and star studded defensive backs. This is idiotic by any stretch of the imagination.

 

The good news is Wood and Levitre. Perhaps Maybin too, but I see him as feast or famine. The Guards offer us hope of out muscling opponents at some point. If they are good, they will be part of a nucleus of a team that perhaps some day will suit the climate and fans. There is more work to do, but that was a hell of a start imo.

[Ramius]

He is a very smart kid, and I am at a loss as to why he doesn't understand this.

 

Look, I know quite well that there were quarterback issues, and this certainly didn't help us at all. Still, weak lines take away the ability to play fundamental football. This is the NFL, not touch football in the streets of Buffalo or NYC. Teams exploit weaknesses really quickly in this league, and for years we have been a team which fields weak sisters up front, and star studded defensive backs. This is idiotic by any stretch of the imagination.

 

The good news is Wood and Levitre. Perhaps Maybin too, but I see him as feast or famine. The Guards offer us hope of out muscling opponents at some point. If they are good, they will be part of a nucleus of a team that perhaps some day will suit the climate and fans. There is more work to do, but that was a hell of a start imo.

 

Good job completely ignoring the argument i presented. But then, you've ignored GG numerous times when he's posted similar arguments, so why should you change now.

 

But lets all pretend and make up lies about how the Bills draft more DBs than anyone else (when its been shown dozens of times that they dont) so we can whine and B word and continue our crusades.

[1billsfan]

He is a very smart kid, and I am at a loss as to why he doesn't understand this.

 

Look, I know quite well that there were quarterback issues, and this certainly didn't help us at all. Still, weak lines take away the ability to play fundamental football. This is the NFL, not touch football in the streets of Buffalo or NYC. Teams exploit weaknesses really quickly in this league, and for years we have been a team which fields weak sisters up front, and star studded defensive backs. This is idiotic by any stretch of the imagination.

 

The good news is Wood and Levitre. Perhaps Maybin too, but I see him as feast or famine. The Guards offer us hope of out muscling opponents at some point. If they are good, they will be part of a nucleus of a team that perhaps some day will suit the climate and fans. There is more work to do, but that was a hell of a start imo.

 

"It starts up front" is the truest saying in football. The Bills have literally been pushed around since Polian left. After finally addressing the line issues hopefully there's a turn for the better in 2009.

[Bill from NYC]

Good job completely ignoring the argument i presented. But then, you've ignored GG numerous times when he's posted similar arguments, so why should you change now.

 

What are you talking about? The Bills have a history of drafting first round backs while the lines suck. Period. You want to bring up Polian and the Colts? When you have Manning, Glenn, Meadows, James, Freeney and Harrison, you might as well draft defensive backs.

The same thing applies to NE, etc.

[Bill from NYC]

"It starts up front" is the truest saying in football. The Bills have literally been pushed around since Polian left. After finally addressing the line issues hopefully there's a turn for the better in 2009.

 

It might take more than a year.

 

The way I look at it, I'm in it for the duration under any conditions, so I can wait. Jauron is an anchor holding this team down, but I don't expect him to be around much longer. You never know, but he would have to win lots of games to stay here, and that in itself is a reach.

[Ramius]

What are you talking about? The Bills have a history of drafting first round backs while the lines suck. Period. You want to bring up Polian and the Colts? When you have Manning, Glenn, Meadows, James, Freeney and Harrison, you might as well draft defensive backs.

The same thing applies to NE, etc.

 

The Bills also have a history of drafting first round RBs while the lines suck, so whats your point?

 

My point is and always has been, that the problems come from not addressing the lines in the draft in rounds 1-3. The problems do NOT stem from drafting DBs.

[1billsfan]

It might take more than a year.

 

The way I look at it, I'm in it for the duration under any conditions, so I can wait. Jauron is an anchor holding this team down, but I don't expect him to be around much longer. You never know, but he would have to win lots of games to stay here, and that in itself is a reach.

 

Jauron's a disaster. I hate his style. It's painful to watch the Jauron coached Bills attempt to play football on Sundays. I will be shocked if this team has a winning record just because of who's coaching them.

[Bill from NYC]

My point is and always has been, that the problems come from not addressing the lines in the draft in rounds 1-3. The problems do NOT stem from drafting DBs.

 

Read this again. We are seeing eye to eye and there should be no quarrel.

 

If Levy/Jauron did things right in 06 (and we both know that they had every opportunity to do so), maybe a first round db would have made sense this year. Instead, they chose to focus primarily on the secondary.

When a team like NE drafts a db with their first pick, it generally makes sense. They draft late and are winning games due to, among other things, solid fundamental play. They didn't build their team from the secondary because it makes no sense to do so.

 

If Levitre, Hangartner and Wood can play you will see an immediate difference in the style of this team. Seriously, it will show up right away. Next year, I hope they go after Tackles on both sides. They must if they want to win, but I don't trust Jauron to do so. I trust him to lose.

[Ramius]

Read this again. We are seeing eye to eye and there should be no quarrel.

 

If Levy/Jauron did things right in 06 (and we both know that they had every opportunity to do so), maybe a first round db would have made sense this year. Instead, they chose to focus primarily on the secondary.

When a team like NE drafts a db with their first pick, it generally makes sense. They draft late and are winning games due to, among other things, solid fundamental play. They didn't build their team from the secondary because it makes no sense to do so.

 

If Levitre, Hangartner and Wood can play you will see an immediate difference in the style of this team. Seriously, it will show up right away. Next year, I hope they go after Tackles on both sides. They must if they want to win, but I don't trust Jauron to do so. I trust him to lose.

 

I dont trust jauron to do anything right. Money and that stupid extension is the only reason he's still here.

[thebandit27]

You'd have to be a real jackass to not understand that the main reason for the Bills sucking since the Polian glory years has been the ridiculous amount of high draft resources used on defensive backs at the expense of the offensive and defensive lines. I'll let you try to figure out where that leaves you.

 

You sir, need to research your points occasionally.

 

For the ten-year time period from 1999 to 2008, here are the teams that drafted DBs in the 1st round:

 

2008 - NO, Mia

2007 - Buf, Ari, TB, Ten, SD, Dal, NYG

2006 - Oak, Buf, St. L, Mia, SD, Cin, Sea

2005 - Ten, Ari, Was, Oak, Ind

2004 - Was, Atl, Hou, GB, Car

2003 - Dal, Sea, Pit, Ten, SD, Oak

2002 - SD, Dal, Oak, Bal, Phi, SF

2001 - Buf, NYG, Den, Mia, Oak

2000 - Den, Car, SF

1999 - Was, Bal, Buf, GB, Jax

 

Now check this out:

 

Below is a table showing each team that drafted DBs during that time in the 1st round, along with the # of DBs and whether or not they played in the superbowl after drafting a DB...

 

team # sb?

new orleans 1 no

miami 3 no

buffalo 4 no

arizona 2 yes

tampa bay 1 no

san diego 4 no

dallas 3 no

ny giants 2 yes

oakland 5 yes

st. louis 1 no

cincinnati 1 no

seattle 2 yes

tennessee 3 no

washington 3 no

indianapolis 1 yes

atlanta 1 no

houston 1 no

green bay 2 no

carolina 2 yes

pittsburgh 1 yes

baltimore 2 yes

philadelphia 1 yes

san francisco 2 no

denver 2 no

jacksonville 1 no

 

So I can confidently say that, no, there is absolutely no correlation between drafting DBs in the 1st round and going to the superbowl. There is, however, a correlation between picking good players in all rounds of the draft and playing in a superbowl.

[The Big Cat]

The Bills also have a history of drafting first round RBs while the lines suck, so whats your point?

 

My point is and always has been, that the problems come from not addressing the lines in the draft in rounds 1-3. The problems do NOT stem from drafting DBs.

 

What's the difference between drafting lineman in rounds 1-3 vs rounds 4-7?

 

There isn't one.

 

Here's what I've been trying to compile since Sunday:

 

Lists of all players drafted, sorted by round/team since 2000. Then, I'd like to sort them by career with team that drafted them (cut, released, traded, reserve/ST, starter, pro bowl) and career within the league (no longer in league, reserve/ST, starter, pro bowl).

 

Here's what I THINK I'll find:

 

The best teams in the league have some starters who were drafted TO THAT TEAM before 2004. The best teams in the league will have a majority of their roster obtained before 2006. There will be a very slim correlation between player success and draft position.

 

As it relates to the Bills and this argument of "turning around:" I'm willing to bet that the Bills will be in the top 5 of NFL teams with a vast, vast, vast majority of their roster acquired (through the draft) since 2006.

[C.Biscuit97]

You sir, need to research your points occasionally.

 

For the ten-year time period from 1999 to 2008, here are the teams that drafted DBs in the 1st round:

 

2008 - NO, Mia

2007 - Buf, Ari, TB, Ten, SD, Dal, NYG

2006 - Oak, Buf, St. L, Mia, SD, Cin, Sea

2005 - Ten, Ari, Was, Oak, Ind

2004 - Was, Atl, Hou, GB, Car

2003 - Dal, Sea, Pit, Ten, SD, Oak

2002 - SD, Dal, Oak, Bal, Phi, SF

2001 - Buf, NYG, Den, Mia, Oak

2000 - Den, Car, SF

1999 - Was, Bal, Buf, GB, Jax

 

Now check this out:

 

Below is a table showing each team that drafted DBs during that time in the 1st round, along with the # of DBs and whether or not they played in the superbowl after drafting a DB...

 

team # sb?

new orleans 1 no

miami 3 no

buffalo 4 no

arizona 2 yes

tampa bay 1 no

san diego 4 no

dallas 3 no

ny giants 2 yes

oakland 5 yes

st. louis 1 no

cincinnati 1 no

seattle 2 yes

tennessee 3 no

washington 3 no

indianapolis 1 yes

atlanta 1 no

houston 1 no

green bay 2 no

carolina 2 yes

pittsburgh 1 yes

baltimore 2 yes

philadelphia 1 yes

san francisco 2 no

denver 2 no

jacksonville 1 no

 

So I can confidently say that, no, there is absolutely no correlation between drafting DBs in the 1st round and going to the superbowl. There is, however, a correlation between picking good players in all rounds of the draft and playing in a superbowl.

 

 

Good work. It's jsut flat out wrong and dumb to think that there is one way to build a team. How many 1st round picks do the Steelers have on their o-line? Or how the Giants, who are considered to be one of the best o-lines in football?

 

If you wanna blame anything, blame the fact that the Bills have been good enough not to get high draft picks every year. Bill Polian looks a lot smarter because he got to choose Bruce Smith and Peyton Manning #1 overall.

[1billsfan]

You sir, need to research your points occasionally.

 

For the ten-year time period from 1999 to 2008, here are the teams that drafted DBs in the 1st round:

 

2008 - NO, Mia

2007 - Buf, Ari, TB, Ten, SD, Dal, NYG

2006 - Oak, Buf, St. L, Mia, SD, Cin, Sea

2005 - Ten, Ari, Was, Oak, Ind

2004 - Was, Atl, Hou, GB, Car

2003 - Dal, Sea, Pit, Ten, SD, Oak

2002 - SD, Dal, Oak, Bal, Phi, SF

2001 - Buf, NYG, Den, Mia, Oak

2000 - Den, Car, SF

1999 - Was, Bal, Buf, GB, Jax

 

Now check this out:

 

Below is a table showing each team that drafted DBs during that time in the 1st round, along with the # of DBs and whether or not they played in the superbowl after drafting a DB...

 

team # sb?

new orleans 1 no

miami 3 no

buffalo 4 no

arizona 2 yes

tampa bay 1 no

san diego 4 no

dallas 3 no

ny giants 2 yes

oakland 5 yes

st. louis 1 no

cincinnati 1 no

seattle 2 yes

tennessee 3 no

washington 3 no

indianapolis 1 yes

atlanta 1 no

houston 1 no

green bay 2 no

carolina 2 yes

pittsburgh 1 yes

baltimore 2 yes

philadelphia 1 yes

san francisco 2 no

denver 2 no

jacksonville 1 no

 

So I can confidently say that, no, there is absolutely no correlation between drafting DBs in the 1st round and going to the superbowl. There is, however, a correlation between picking good players in all rounds of the draft and playing in a superbowl.

 

Sorry, but your convoluted exercise was pointless. I never stated anything about "1st round" only Bills' DB picks. It has been the Bills' general excessive use of high draft picks (I'm talking rounds 1 - 4) on DBs at the expense of both the offensive and defensive lines that has been their achilles heel these past fifteen years. It saddens me that fellow Bills fans see this as even a point of contention.

[Bill from NYC]

Sorry, but your convoluted exercise was pointless. I never stated anything about "1st round" only Bills' DB picks. It has been the Bills' general excessive use of high draft picks (I'm talking rounds 1 - 4) on DBs at the expense of both the offensive and defensive lines that has been their achilles heel these past fifteen years. It saddens me that fellow Bills fans see this as even a point of contention.

 

It also doesn't take into account the state of the team when the picks were made. In 06, the Bills were hurting bad on both lines. They took dbs with 3 of their first 4 picks., and it remains their primary concern, although this draft did provide a glimmer of hope.

[thebandit27]

Sorry, but your convoluted exercise was pointless. I never stated anything about "1st round" only Bills' DB picks. It has been the Bills' general excessive use of high draft picks (I'm talking rounds 1 - 4) on DBs at the expense of both the offensive and defensive lines that has been their achilles heel these past fifteen years. It saddens me that fellow Bills fans see this as even a point of contention.

 

Only to those with selective reading comprehension.

 

You said that Buffalo couldn't win because they use excessive "high round" picks on DBs. Most people consider "high round" picks to be 1st and 2nd round. If you're complaining about how Buffalo spends it's 4th round picks, there's no hope for you in this argument, since a reasonable success rate on 4th round draft picks is about 30%.

 

I posted detailed information that very clearly illustrates that successful and unsuccessful teams alike focus on DBs at times. The fact that people like you try to boil 10 seasons of futility down to "Buffalo drafts too many DBs" is laughable. When I pointed out how laughable it is, you tried to justify it by saying that Buffalo doesn't spend high picks on the lines, and that's why they lose.

 

Again, that's just plain wrong. There are plenty of different ways to build a winning team, but one thing is common amongst all of them: they draft well. Forget about what positions. Do you think teams like New England, Pittsburgh, San Diego, etc. go into the draft thinking "We really need to target an OL in the oh-so critical 4th round"? Please tell me you don't honestly believe that; they don't. They pick the best players, they're aren't worried about how many linemen they draft or whether or not they have a perceived notion of drafting too many players at one position. They just draft guys that can play, and worry about positional dymamics later.

 

The fact that you don't understand the concept of this doesn't mean that your babble is justified.

[Bill from NYC]

Only to those with selective reading comprehension.

 

You said that Buffalo couldn't win because they use excessive "high round" picks on DBs. Most people consider "high round" picks to be 1st and 2nd round. If you're complaining about how Buffalo spends it's 4th round picks, there's no hope for you in this argument, since a reasonable success rate on 4th round draft picks is about 30%.

 

I posted detailed information that very clearly illustrates that successful and unsuccessful teams alike focus on DBs at times. The fact that people like you try to boil 10 seasons of futility down to "Buffalo drafts too many DBs" is laughable. When I pointed out how laughable it is, you tried to justify it by saying that Buffalo doesn't spend high picks on the lines, and that's why they lose.

 

Again, that's just plain wrong. There are plenty of different ways to build a winning team, but one thing is common amongst all of them: they draft well. Forget about what positions. Do you think teams like New England, Pittsburgh, San Diego, etc. go into the draft thinking "We really need to target an OL in the oh-so critical 4th round"? Please tell me you don't honestly believe that; they don't. They pick the best players, they're aren't worried about how many linemen they draft or whether or not they have a perceived notion of drafting too many players at one position. They just draft guys that can play, and worry about positional dymamics later.

 

The fact that you don't understand the concept of this doesn't mean that your babble is justified.

 

Your numbers fail to incidicate team needs at the time the selections are made. In 06, do you think that there were more important areas to address than the secondary? What do you think was our biggest need at the time?

[1billsfan]

Only to those with selective reading comprehension.

 

You said that Buffalo couldn't win because they use excessive "high round" picks on DBs. Most people consider "high round" picks to be 1st and 2nd round. If you're complaining about how Buffalo spends it's 4th round picks, there's no hope for you in this argument, since a reasonable success rate on 4th round draft picks is about 30%.

 

I posted detailed information that very clearly illustrates that successful and unsuccessful teams alike focus on DBs at times. The fact that people like you try to boil 10 seasons of futility down to "Buffalo drafts too many DBs" is laughable. When I pointed out how laughable it is, you tried to justify it by saying that Buffalo doesn't spend high picks on the lines, and that's why they lose.

 

Again, that's just plain wrong. There are plenty of different ways to build a winning team, but one thing is common amongst all of them: they draft well. Forget about what positions. Do you think teams like New England, Pittsburgh, San Diego, etc. go into the draft thinking "We really need to target an OL in the oh-so critical 4th round"? Please tell me you don't honestly believe that; they don't. They pick the best players, they're aren't worried about how many linemen they draft or whether or not they have a perceived notion of drafting too many players at one position. They just draft guys that can play, and worry about positional dymamics later.

 

The fact that you don't understand the concept of this doesn't mean that your babble is justified.

 

I'm not complaining, just giving a clear and concise observation about the main reason why our team has been pushed around on the offensive and defensive lines for the better part of 10 years. You seem confused and lost in your own argument. The Bills have drafted too many DBs high in the draft and not enough interior lineman high in the draft. This is an indisputable fact and the pathetic play of our lines has been the irrefutable evidence.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Again, that's just plain wrong. There are plenty of different ways to build a winning team, but one thing is common amongst all of them: they draft well. Forget about what positions. Do you think teams like New England, Pittsburgh, San Diego, etc. go into the draft thinking "We really need to target an OL in the oh-so critical 4th round"? Please tell me you don't honestly believe that; they don't. They pick the best players, they're aren't worried about how many linemen they draft or whether or not they have a perceived notion of drafting too many players at one position. They just draft guys that can play, and worry about positional dymamics later.

 

The fact that you don't understand the concept of this doesn't mean that your babble is justified.

Are you saying that teams do not factor their own positional needs into their draft strategy? Because, the above seems to read that way and that would be clearly incorrect. Let's take Bill Polian and the Colts again. You don't see the Colts drafting 1st round QBs and the reason is obvious -- they have Peyton Manning. When James signs with the Cardinals, they didn't simply count on the backup Rhodes to step up as the starter, they went out and drafted Addai. Again, when they were concerned about Jeff Saturday's status, they went and drafted 3 Cs in the hopes of finding one that could be his replacement.

[Lurker]

Your numbers fail to incidicate team needs at the time the selections are made. In 06, do you think that there were more important areas to address than the secondary? What do you think was our biggest need at the time?

Having a positional need and matching it with a player worthy of being picked at that spot in the draft are two different things. Reaching on guys because you have a need gets you Eric Flowers...