"Buffalo Ownership" & Toronto...

[Arkady Renko]

Seems to me that it is always up to those fans whether or not the team represents them. If the Bills move to Toronto but you drive down Buffalo St. in Jamestown NY and see Bills helmets still plastered all over the sides of houses, then I would say the team definitely represents those fans, regardless of where they live. And I suspect that though the Bills may lose some of those fans, a majority of them will still be there.

 

I really do not think that a majority will still be there. Moving to an entirely different country, likely with an entirely new name (Bills only really fits with Buffalo) and in an entirely different kind of city seem to be pretty big sticking points. Such a move is pretty unprecedented.

 

Baltimore Colts fans didn't cheer on the Indianapolis Colts. Browns fans didn't cheer on the Ravens. This isn't like the Giants and Jets moving to Jersey or the Patriots moving to Foxborough. Those were moves to suburbs of the main city and always in the same country.

[The_Philster]

Seems to me that it is always up to those fans whether or not the team represents them. If the Bills move to Toronto but you drive down Buffalo St. in Jamestown NY and see Bills helmets still plastered all over the sides of houses, then I would say the team definitely represents those fans, regardless of where they live. And I suspect that though the Bills may lose some of those fans, a majority of them will still be there.

just like people in Maryland still support the Colts? Anyone who supports the Bills if they move has no self-respect or respect for WNY

[Endzone Animal]

When the Colts were moved they were taken almost a thousand miles away to a smaller market. Toronto is just up the road and is an enormously wealthy market that can support the luxury box and merchandizing necessities of today's NFL. We should be encouraging Ralph to expand more games to Toronto so the team will be more competitive on the field and remain long term within a short drive from Buffalo.

[Big Curt]

If anything, the Blue Jays should have an easier case to make to potential WNY fans because the Blues Jays did not actually leave Buffalo. Usually people have a worse relationship with the ex that jilted them who still live down the street versus the neighbor who just moved next door.

 

You talk about how Buffalo does not deserve a team and how shiny and nice Toronto is. Beyond the different country issue, this is exactly why the team would not be the same. It would no longer represent the city, WNY and Upstate NY. There would no longer be any emotional attachment from me and most others. This isn't like moving them moving to Rochester.

 

Yes, I appreciate what Ralph Wilson has done to keep the team here when he could have left for greener pastures. I also appreciate that my wife has been faithful to me thus far. But if either abandon me, I think it's reasonable for me to be a little annoyed.

 

The fact that you cannot see this suggests either that you lack emotional maturity or are just acting as a troll.

The Bills are Buffalo. I joined the military years ago. I was born and raised in Buffalo, been thrugh the Super Bpwl losses and all the dissapointment over the years. Nothing would break my heart more than the Bills leaving the area, even if it's Toronto. I've been to Toronto a few times and It's a great city. Nothing compares to going to the Ralph and watching a game, the tailgating and all of the celebration of being a Bills fan. Reality has set in for me though, people are leaving the area like crazy, downtown sucks. I hate bringing friend with me when I go home, we have a great time but we spend most of our time in Canada. I take them downtown and their like, wtf? If having the Bills stay home means playing a few games in Toronto, I'm all for it. If they leave for good, I can't be the same supportive fan. Think it about this honestly, If the citizens of Buffalo hate the city and move. Why would anyone else want to stay here. We have to improve our city and take pride first and foremost. If the population gets any worse in WNY, no team or owner will be able to continue to take the fiscal losses that will happen. Its time for the stuck up thriving suburbs of Buffalo to finally merge together with the city and centralize the county. Eventually the whole area will be flushed down the toilet and all will be lost. I beleive if the city becomes more attractive an owner might want to stay in the area. Even a new stadium in the Falls might help our cause, as long as we are still named the Buffalo Bills.

[Lori]

Folks:

Can someone explain to me how the story has significantly changed since Dec. 5, see below? Though Lind refers to the NFL potentially expanding its schedule as an ideal chance to add a game, he never ruled out wanting another game no matter what happens.

 

jw

 

Lind open to Bills playing more games in Toronto

 

Friday, December 05, 2008

By JOHN WAWROW, AP Sports Writer

ADVERTISEMENT

 

TORONTO — The executive who lured the Buffalo Bills into playing in Toronto foresees having the team make more than one regular-season stop a year north of the border _ especially if the NFL goes through with its proposal to lengthen the schedule.

 

"Depending on the arrangements, I wouldn't mind one more game here," Rogers Communications vice chairman Phil Lind told The Associated Press on Friday. "Especially if the NFL's going to nuke two of their preseasons game, I would think for certain we would have one of those games."

 

Lind was referring to preliminary discussions within the NFL of adding one or two more games to the 16-game regular season by shortening the preseason. That proposal, though, is in limbo until the league negotiates a new collective bargaining agreement with the NFL Players Association.

 

Lind also continued to allay fears his company is intent on purchasing the Bills and relocating them to Toronto. He instead suggested the Bills could become a true two-city entity, an arrangement that would secure the team's long-term financial viability in the region and end speculation of the franchise being a candidate for relocation.

 

"If we can devise a scheme whereby the Bills can get more revenue for a season, that may even mean another game or so here, I don't know. But if we can devise that scheme and still keep the team in Buffalo and keep the whole thing in this area, I think that's a win-win, far better than the whole darn thing moving to L.A."

John, you're correct that nothing concrete has changed since you wrote the story you're citing. However, I think the Bills in Toronto group's recent actions (the survey, Lind's continued comments, etc.), combined with the Bills' non-denial about the possibility of re-opening the current deal and the county's seeming acquiescence, lead many Bills fans to theorize that those plans might already secretly be in motion.

 

In December, it was, "Oh, that's nice, he wants more games. He can get stuffed." Now, it's, "Hey, this might actually happen. To the barricades!" True, all a matter of perception ... but you're well aware that "fan" is short for "fanatic," and there's nothing like a good conspiracy theory.

 

Just one fan's opinion.

[PromoTheRobot]

You could not be further from the truth on this one...I mean you are WAAAAAAAAY off thinking this is the case. This team moves out of Buffalo and nobody and I mean NOBODY (besides you) would feel this way.

Make it two because I feel the same way. But then again I know how much Buffalo likes being the victim. It feeds our inferiority complex.

 

PTR

[Lori]

When the Colts were moved they were taken almost a thousand miles away to a smaller market. Toronto is just up the road and is an enormously wealthy market that can support the luxury box and merchandizing necessities of today's NFL. We should be encouraging Ralph to expand more games to Toronto so the team will be more competitive on the field and remain long term within a short drive from Buffalo.

Just curious -- where did you say you lived, again?

[Endzone Animal]

Just curious -- where did you say you lived, again?

I didn't say, and I fail to see how where I live now makes a difference in my opinion.

[PromoTheRobot]

Just curious -- where did you say you lived, again?

We all want everything to stay the same. I wish the Braves were still in Buffalo. I wish the steel mills were still open. If you realistically think there is a way to keep the Bills in Buffalo 100% after Ralph passes then by all means we should pursue it. But if all you're doing is tilting at windmills and denying reality then what does it accomplish?

 

PTR

[Lori]

I didn't say, and I fail to see how where I live now makes a difference in my opinion.

Does it stand to reason that some Bills season-ticket holders in Buffalo might disagree with that opinion?

 

We all want everything to stay the same. I wish the Braves were still in Buffalo. I wish the steel mills were still open. If you realistically think there is a way to keep the Bills in Buffalo 100% after Ralph passes then by all means we should pursue it. But if all you're doing is tilting at windmills and denying reality then what does it accomplish?

 

PTR

Think I'm already on record as saying the team is gone as soon as Ralph's will is probated, although I obviously hope that doesn't happen for a long time. In fact, I have severe doubts they stay once the current lease expires. Not sure how that equals "denying reality" in your book.

[JinWPB]

21st century news flash!!!!

 

Buffalo and the Niagara frontier will soon be no more than the suburbs of Toronto.

 

Anyone listen to Pres. Obama's meetings with Mexican Pres.???

 

When talking about flood of illegals across the border,they both refer to it as natural "migratory patterns" of the work force in the "americas" and when taking of trade they invision one great society from Canada's north, south to the Panama canal.

 

This is change you can believe in people ....wake up.. and it is not a party line thing , this is corporate exploitation of the masses just as sure as USSR was government exploitation.

 

Any American that thinks his or her vote has any impact on what happens in Washington is in for a big surprise.

All the Dem vs. Rep stuff is just a smoke screen to keep the masses distracted while any rights or wealth we have are stolen.

[Cookiemonster]

21st century news flash!!!!

 

Buffalo and the Niagara frontier will soon be no more than the suburbs of Toronto.

 

Anyone listen to Pres. Obama's meetings with Mexican Pres.???

 

When talking about flood of illegals across the border,they both refer to it as natural "migratory patterns" of the work force in the "americas" and when taking of trade they invision one great society from Canada's north, south to the Panama canal.

 

This is change you can believe in people ....wake up.. and it is not a party line thing , this is corporate exploitation of the masses just as sure as USSR was government exploitation.

 

Any American that thinks his or her vote has any impact on what happens in Washington is in for a big surprise.

All the Dem vs. Rep stuff is just a smoke screen to keep the masses distracted while any rights or wealth we have are stolen.

Wow, what dandered up this outburst, tell us how you really feel.

[VJ91]

...The supposed "Jim Kelly ownership group" is a fantasy. There is no such thing - just a wish and prayer....

 

...Today's NFL is all business, and there are no current owners who sacrifice profits for championships - another myth....

 

...Any group buying the bills will surely need to borrow in excess of $500 million and with that debt load survival in Buffalo alone is not an option. ...

 

...I live in Maryland...

 

...Grow up - enjoy the team while you can and pray that Wilson lives to 110. ...

 

Jim Kelly has said many times on many media formats that his ownership group is in fact a reality. Tell me what he has to gain from lying about this?

 

Why don't you ask the Rooney family if they have sacrificed HUGE potential profits for winning two Super Bowls in this decade. I'm sure they would laugh at your claims that it is a myth to think they could not have earned more money by spending less on the talent they needed to win those SB's!!

 

Kelly's group knows how much they would need to invest to purchase the Bills from Wilson, and he has said in no uncertain terms they would stay put and continue to be known as the Buffalo Bills. I would like to hear his group's plan for doing that before I ever agree with your negative statement.

 

You live in Maryland....who cares??

 

I'm supposed to grow up, and just wish for Wilson to live to 110? What should I do if I decide not to grow up, wish that he lives to 115??

[Delete This Account]

John, you're correct that nothing concrete has changed since you wrote the story you're citing. However, I think the Bills in Toronto group's recent actions (the survey, Lind's continued comments, etc.), combined with the Bills' non-denial about the possibility of re-opening the current deal and the county's seeming acquiescence, lead many Bills fans to theorize that those plans might already secretly be in motion.

 

In December, it was, "Oh, that's nice, he wants more games. He can get stuffed." Now, it's, "Hey, this might actually happen. To the barricades!" True, all a matter of perception ... but you're well aware that "fan" is short for "fanatic," and there's nothing like a good conspiracy theory.

 

Just one fan's opinion.

Fair enough.

Thing is, Lind's continued comments haven't changed in four months. Heck, he told the Rogers-owned MacLeans Magazine a week before I quoted him. He told The National Post much the same last June. Fact is, they were interested and they're still interested. This isn't going away, and I guess the more times Lind says it, the more it sinks in.

 

As for the county, Collins has said several times that he'd be open to more games in Toronto if the Bills remain in Orhcard Park. The Bills non-denial is notable, but what are they going to do, close the door on the opportunity to generate additional revenue? That wouldn't be smart business.

 

My point is, there has been no significant development in the story in the public realm for quite some time. The Star's piece is just the latest in a long line of pieces to quote Lind as saying, "hey, we're interested in more games." And every time a story like this is posted, it raises a new round of angst, and fans will be fanatics.

 

Sure, it ain't easy for those being fans of this team because of the inherent dependency issues one has to assume as part of the baggage that comes with rooting for the Bills. If it ain't another losing season, it's another quarterback or coach. And then there's the nervous tick that develops every time "Bills" and "Toronto" are contained in the same sentence, even it it's "Bill's girfriend went to Toronto and had a great time at the Korean Grill House." (Great place, I might add.)

 

Thing is, there are still a lot of hurdles to cross before it grows from one game to all games. Rogers still hasn't named a successor to Ted Rogers. And the new boss will play a significant role in determining where this goes. The economy is still suffering and the Canadian dollar will likely remain around the 85 cent level for some time. There's also the uncertainty of where the next CBA talks will go, an NFL commissioner who has ties to the region, and political scrutiny -- don't underestimate Schumer's role here, as the NFL needs to keep Washington happy going into the CBA talks, especially if the NFLPA goes ahead with its threat to decertify (the implication there is the NFL might no longer be open to being protected by anti-trust laws).

 

I'm not saying the Bills are staying or going. There's arguments to be made both ways. The reason for my post was merely to note that with all the time that has passed, not very much has changed since Lind said it the second or third time and the upteenth time.

 

respectfully,

 

jw

[VJ91]

Buffalo isn't a baseball town. Besides, the point is Bills fans OWE Ralph for giving them a team locally that they probably didn't deserve when he could have made a ton more money shipping them off to another city. If you don't want to root for the Bills because they play in Toronto, fine, but you OWE Ralph for a legacy of loyalty to Buffalo and should root for that organization no matter where they relocate. If Ralph's team moves to Toronto you can still get there without chartering a flight, so in that sense he's doing Bills fans a FAVOR by moving the games there instead of LA.

 

All of you on this board OWE Ralph, not the other way around. Don't forget it.

 

We owe Ralph, I have no problem with that. And I'm not saying Wilson owes us anything. I am saying he could have explored the Jim Kelly group sale before signing up with Toronto in the first place. If he needed that 9 Million per game so desperately, he could have simply asked for some minority partners, like those in the Kelly group for instance, to invest at least that much now so the BUFFALO BILLS could continue to compete in today's big business NFL. I am saying the man had options other then selling our home games out to Toronto. And that is my entire point of this thread.

[BillsVet]

Rather than your whining about Ralph Wilson, you should instead be venting your anger towards the government in New York State, whose bloated government and high taxes have driven out people and companies and made upstate New York a wasteland.

 

Very true. But to pin this solely on a myriad of politicians since the 60s in shortsighted. RW's been barking about things since those years, and he could have addressed it without dragging things out. He didn't, but still complains.

 

Let's hope they start doing that sometime soon, then.

 

IIRC, RW said after the move was made that additional revenue from the Toronto arrangement would not mean more spent on players. He's a businessman, and the cap minimum has risen 21M since 06, but to say they're not spending more bothers me. Yet they want me to support the deal in TO.

[Lori]

Fair enough.

Thing is, Lind's continued comments haven't changed in four months. Heck, he told the Rogers-owned MacLeans Magazine a week before I quoted him. He told The National Post much the same last June. Fact is, they were interested and they're still interested. This isn't going away, and I guess the more times Lind says it, the more it sinks in.

 

As for the county, Collins has said several times that he'd be open to more games in Toronto if the Bills remain in Orhcard Park. The Bills non-denial is notable, but what are they going to do, close the door on the opportunity to generate additional revenue? That wouldn't be smart business.

 

My point is, there has been no significant development in the story in the public realm for quite some time. The Star's piece is just the latest in a long line of pieces to quote Lind as saying, "hey, we're interested in more games." And every time a story like this is posted, it raises a new round of angst, and fans will be fanatics.

 

Sure, it ain't easy for those being fans of this team because of the inherent dependency issues one has to assume as part of the baggage that comes with rooting for the Bills. If it ain't another losing season, it's another quarterback or coach. And then there's the nervous tick that develops every time "Bills" and "Toronto" are contained in the same sentence, even it it's "Bill's girfriend went to Toronto and had a great time at the Korean Grill House." (Great place, I might add.)

 

Thing is, there are still a lot of hurdles to cross before it grows from one game to all games. Rogers still hasn't named a successor to Ted Rogers. And the new boss will play a significant role in determining where this goes. The economy is still suffering and the Canadian dollar will likely remain around the 85 cent level for some time. There's also the uncertainty of where the next CBA talks will go, an NFL commissioner who has ties to the region, and political scrutiny -- don't underestimate Schumer's role here, as the NFL needs to keep Washington happy going into the CBA talks, especially if the NFLPA goes ahead with its threat to decertify (the implication there is the NFL might no longer be open to being protected by anti-trust laws).

 

I'm not saying the Bills are staying or going. There's arguments to be made both ways. The reason for my post was merely to note that with all the time that has passed, not very much has changed since Lind said it the second or third time and the upteenth time.

 

respectfully,

 

jw

Bills. Toronto.

(flinching)

 

Yup, you're right. Can't find anything else to disagree with there, either.

[May Day 10]

another home game goes to Toronto and Im done. The Bills move to Toronto, theres no way I follow.

 

If they move, I have nothing but hate for Wilson.

[VJ91]

21st century news flash!!!!

 

Buffalo and the Niagara frontier will soon be no more than the suburbs of Toronto.

 

Anyone listen to Pres. Obama's meetings with Mexican Pres.???

 

When talking about flood of illegals across the border,they both refer to it as natural "migratory patterns" of the work force in the "americas" and when taking of trade they invision one great society from Canada's north, south to the Panama canal.

 

This is change you can believe in people ....wake up.. and it is not a party line thing , this is corporate exploitation of the masses just as sure as USSR was government exploitation.

 

Any American that thinks his or her vote has any impact on what happens in Washington is in for a big surprise.

All the Dem vs. Rep stuff is just a smoke screen to keep the masses distracted while any rights or wealth we have are stolen.

 

You sound exaclty like the left wing radicals railing about capitalism and the military during the Bush administration for his 8 years in office. The liberal democrats take full power and here we go with the right wing radicals railing about communism and socialism. You need to have more faith in the people of this great country. Bush never did all the horrible conservative things the liberals accused him of doing, and now Obama won't do all of the horrible liberal things the conservatives are accusing him of beginning to do. The United States is too strong for all of this irrational ranting from either side. We are not just a smoke screen. We keep this country going, with all of our faults and frailities, as by far the greatest one in the world year after year, and generations after generation, becuase we have always value our FREEDOM most of all.

[FLFan]

Jim Kelly has said many times on many media formats that his ownership group is in fact a reality. Tell me what he has to gain from lying about this?

 

Why don't you ask the Rooney family if they have sacrificed HUGE potential profits for winning two Super Bowls in this decade. I'm sure they would laugh at your claims that it is a myth to think they could not have earned more money by spending less on the talent they needed to win those SB's!!

 

Kelly's group knows how much they would need to invest to purchase the Bills from Wilson, and he has said in no uncertain terms they would stay put and continue to be known as the Buffalo Bills. I would like to hear his group's plan for doing that before I ever agree with your negative statement.

 

You live in Maryland....who cares??

 

I'm supposed to grow up, and just wish for Wilson to live to 110? What should I do if I decide not to grow up, wish that he lives to 115??

 

Who are they, this mysterious secret cabal of big time investors and Buffalo backers? Why is Jim Kelly the front man? I do not doubt Kelly's sincerity about wanting to make something happen, but until such time as the details are known, and the real business people behind the supposed group step up, it remains a fantasy, not reality. You seem to assume because Jim Kelly said so it must be and that it would happen if only cheap old Ralph would come to the table. If there is a group and a plan I am sure we would all like to hear it, most of all the Buffalo Bills. Until then, keep putting your teeth underneath your pillow.

 

As regards the Steelers, check your facts. They never have been a free spending franchise - just the opposite. They are a model of how to succeed with fiscal responsibility. They have never been big players in free agency and have let many rising stars go to free agency over the years rather than over pay. They choose to target and pay a few core players and build through the draft. By the way, they also have a brand new state of the art facility and a very strong coporate base of support in Pittsburgh, neither of which Buffalo has.

 

I am sure nobody cares that I live in MD, I was just making the point that reality in other NFL cities is very different than in Buffalo. Apparently you missed the point - you douche.

 

Not sure I understand your last point - really does not make any sense.