BTW, is anyone still down on McKelvin?

[The Dean]

Sorry, couldn't resist. I do agree with most of your most. However, I'd suggest we're better than 4-5 players away. I'd say 2 maybe 3. We need to upgrade Ellison and we need a QB. That's 2 for certain. Trent may still be the guy, but one of the great tragedies of this season has been that we still just don't know.

 

Certainly it can be argued that we need all sorts of other upgrades. But, I'll counter much of that sentiment with.... how much better would we look this season if the offensive coaching and head coaching had resembled anything competent? Today's game was a perfect example. We had the talent on the field to win, but we blew it. The Jets didn't beat us, we beat ourselves. And I think you could say that for about 2-3 other games this season.

 

 

I like Ellison as a backup, but they need one more quality starting LB. They also need, IMO, a Center, TE (although Fine might be the guy) and a pass rushing DE (I hear Schobel may be in real bad shape, too). Another DT would be nice to add to the mix, too. A pass rush would make this good defensive backfield look MUCH better.

 

I wouldn't draft a QB with the first, or second, pick, I don't think...not this year. If they want to get one in a later round, or FA/trade for one...then fine. I'll take my chances with Edwards, for another year, if they would commit to the running game a little more.

[spartacus]

It's about the coaching far more than it is about the talent on the field. Levy, Ralph and the FO are responsible for the coaching choices, and deserve criticism for that.

 

The talent level (all around) on this team is superior to when Levy came, and I continue to say, it isn't even close. They are missing a few big-play makers, I will agree. But, the roster as a whole is in much better shape, now. Levy, Ralph and the FO are responsible for that, and deserve the credit.

 

When you, or Dwagg point to how someone the Bills passed on is performing on another team, you fail to mention that in most of those situations, the team was solid and the draft pick was added to a relatively strong base. When Levy came, the team was old and declining, had HUGE holes in the lineup. The older players had big contracts and the team was moving to a cash-to-cap philosophy. Despite that, the team managed to get younger, and more solid, throughout the lineup (with a few exceptions, to be sure)...and maintain their financial integrity. Remember CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Dwagg never deals in context...it is beyond him, I think.

 

You can't even decide who to blame, BV. One day it's all Jauron...he makes the decisions. Another day, I see you have decided to blast Brandon...he makes all the decisions. The truth is, you don't know who to blame...so you blame everyone. I don't know who to blame, so I try to figure out who is likely to make what decisions, and place credit or blame where I think it might belong. As I can never be quite sure, I don't fiercely bash someone who may not deserve the bashing.

 

I am as frustrated as anyone, I just refuse to be blindly pissed, without examining the entire situation. The truth is, if you are a Bills' fan, you should know by now that Ralph isn't going to go the route of some of these other franchises. You either accept it, or you can refuse to believe it (even though it's been made clear year after year). So, all Bills-related analysis has to be through the filter of what the Bills are, realistically, going to do, and are able to do.

 

Buffalo isn't an attractive destination for some FA options. They went after Gonzalez, and couldn't get it done. To their credit, though, they did bring in Mitchel and the offensive line behemoths the previous year. As an aside, I happen to know that Modrack (and Guy) were looking all over for a Center in the offseason, but felt that none of the available Centers were a big improvement over Fowler. They were smart, but low brawn. The Bills want a bigger body there. That is (or at least was several weeks ago) one of the positions they plan to concentrate on this offseason.

 

It is far harder to turn around Buffalo than it is Miami. for many reasons. The Bills aren't going to bring in Parcells and let him run the show...not going to happen. Not Levy's fault, Brandon's fault or Modrak's fault. And, if you want to blame Ralph...fine. But, he's the owner, and it is his show.

 

I'd suggest that some of you need to root for other teams, as you seem to be unable to accept that there are certain things a Bills fan (and GM) has to accept...as they aren't likely to change.

 

As Ralph is 90, maybe he will get antsy, and throw his caution to the wind. But, judging by his history, that is unlikely. So, the Bills need to be solid...certainly more solid, throughout the lineup, than they were when TD left. Then, they need to get lucky. A HC needs to turn to gold, instead of to s#it. Using Miami as an example, how many bad head coaches did they have to go through to find Sparano? And, is it Tony, or Parcells?

 

Then, they have to have some luck with injuries. Now, every team has injuries, but the Bills were decimated last year, and hit pretty hard this year, too. Plus, as I already mentioned, the Bills aren't other teams...they are the Bills. They aren't going to trade away high draft picks the way the Redskins might. That has been true, for the most part, with every Bills GM.

 

Finally (at least for this post) one of their QBs has to pan out. JP had promise...was horrible handled...and is broken now. He may find a way to get fixed somewhere, but it won't be in Buffalo. Edwards looked like a good young prospect, and still may turn out to be the guy we need...but, you have to have doubts after he turned sour midseason.

 

Still, I think that, if this coach, or the next one, can be competent and have "smart balls", this team is 4-5 players short of being a real contender. They already have playoff caliber talent, IMO.

 

good to hear the Bills are thinking about upgrading at C.

 

they only ignored the position for 15 years since Kent Hull retired, so I can understand their urgency in addressing this critical roster spot in this upcoming off season

[BADOLBILZ]

Anyway, the reasoning behind the draft, and the effectiveness of the Bills draft, is another matter, entirely (and was NOT the point of the thread). I don't disagree that, for many years, this team failed to address the interior of the offense and defense. I think they have done a better job since TD left, though, as they brought in FA linemen that are, at least, competent. As bad as some think this line is, it is far better than what the team had several years ago. Sure, they need more bodies, and an upgrade at Center.

 

But, despite the insistence of you and Bill, the draft isn't the ONLY WAY to acquire talented linemen. On the Titans offensive line, only Michael Roos was drafted by Tennessee. The Titans drafted a RB last year, and a DB two of the previous three years.

 

Ergo, they must suck. Right?

 

In this case, the Titans are the exception that proves the rule, though I believe both of their starting OT's were drafted by the team. The reason is that they also have a better coaching staff which gets more out of it's talent AND a better pro personnel staff. That coaching thing is kinda' important, also a failure of both Donahoe and Levy.

 

But with regard to their pro personnel, the Titans hit HR's in free agency, the Bills mostly strikeout. Kyle Vandenbosch, Kevin Mawae, Jake Scott, Tony Brown, Jevon Kearse....those guys all produce and they actually make up for a number of less than stellar picks on lineman. None of those guys was paid crazy money either. Amidst a number of underachievers, is Titan former first round pick and one-time underachiever Albert Haynesworth who is the most dominant lineman(offensive or defensive) in the NFL. Make no mistake, that organization is committed to line play.

 

The Bills take a band-aid approach to line play. Levy's first free agent class was a complete and utter failure. The next offseason they ran out and overpaid Dockery and Walker because they wanted to get it over with. Last offseason, despite obvious struggles running the ball, they did nothing. So now 3 years later they have an overpaid, average LG and a finesse RT who is a hinderance in the running game and their only above average OL is a holdover from the Donahoe regime. Are they better than the 2005 line? Yes. The 2004 line? No. In all, it's not good enough.

[The Dean]

good to hear the Bills are thinking about upgrading at C.

 

they only ignored the position for 15 years since Kent Hull retired, so I can understand their urgency in addressing this critical roster spot in this upcoming off season

 

 

The point is, they haven't ignored it. They just haven't addressed it successfully, so far. After Ostrowski, there was Conaty. He stunk, so they brought in Teague, drafted Duke Preston, brought in Fowler...and I am probably missing others that they drafted, or brought in. It isn't as if they weren't trying to fill the position.

[BillsVet]

The talent level (all around) on this team is superior to when Levy came, and I continue to say, it isn't even close. They are missing a few big-play makers, I will agree. But, the roster as a whole is in much better shape, now. Levy, Ralph and the FO are responsible for that, and deserve the credit.

 

It's not. How can Buffalo go 7-9 in 06 with a tough schedule yet are 6-8 two years later with one of, if not the easiest schedules in the league. Losing Milloy, Fletcher, Clements, and others have hurt, and replacing quality vets with inexperienced rookies has shown.

 

When you, or Dwagg point to how someone the Bills passed on is performing on another team, you fail to mention that in most of those situations, the team was solid and the draft pick was added to a relatively strong base. When Levy came, the team was old and declining, had HUGE holes in the lineup. The older players had big contracts and the team was moving to a cash-to-cap philosophy. Despite that, the team managed to get younger, and more solid, throughout the lineup (with a few exceptions, to be sure)...and maintain their financial integrity. Remember CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING. Dwagg never deals in context...it is beyond him, I think.

 

You can't take BPA, nor draft solely on need. DW was not BPA at 8 in 06, but you'll never admit it. Nor did Buffalo have a huge need for a SS over a DT. Both positions were poor, although Buffalo made it worse by cutting Milloy who has life left in him with Atlanta. Baltimore wasn't a world beater in 05, hence their high draft position the following year. But they reload every year. It's why they're successful from year to year.

 

You can't even decide who to blame, BV. One day it's all Jauron...he makes the decisions. Another day, I see you have decided to blast Brandon...he makes all the decisions. The truth is, you don't know who to blame...so you blame everyone. I don't know who to blame, so I try to figure out who is likely to make what decisions, and place credit or blame where I think it might belong. As I can never be quite sure, I don't fiercely bash someone who may not deserve the bashing.

 

There is something unique in Buffalo's front office. They have no point man right now for decision making. We know ML didn't make decisions, but deferred to DJ on many matters. He was after all, out of the NFL for 9 years before returning to a position he was ill-suited for. I blame ML first, but DJ second for their poor drafting in 06. We will never figure out who made the call for Whitner, but if I was a betting man, and I'm not, DJ made the final call. Who's going to trump the HC with 30+ years in the NFL in that case? A brand new octogenarian GM with no experience in the NFL as such?

 

Buffalo isn't an attractive destination for some FA options. They went after Gonzalez, and couldn't get it done. To their credit, though, they did bring in Mitchel and the offensive line behemoths the previous year. As an aside, I happen to know that Modrack (and Guy) were looking all over for a Center in the offseason, but felt that none of the available Centers were a big improvement over Fowler. They were smart, but low brawn. The Bills want a bigger body there. That is (or at least was several weeks ago) one of the positions they plan to concentrate on this offseason.

 

You don't need big name FA's to win games. Indy wins by drafting well (with our friend BP as GM) and avoiding the spending spree every UFA season. Even when Buffalo has money to offer (as in 07) they select guys who aren't as good as they think. Paying dollars in UFA is the penalty for drafting poorly.

 

It is far harder to turn around Buffalo than it is Miami. for many reasons. The Bills aren't going to bring in Parcells and let him run the show...not going to happen. Not Levy's fault, Brandon's fault or Modrak's fault. And, if you want to blame Ralph...fine. But, he's the owner, and it is his show.

 

I still say Levy took one for the team when he agreed to be GM. Ralph probably begged him, in the wake of the TD disaster. Unfortunately, RW didn't realize he was hiring someone incapable of handling the job. And the result is 3 more losing NFL seasons.

 

As Ralph is 90, maybe he will get antsy, and throw his caution to the wind. But, judging by his history, that is unlikely. So, the Bills need to be solid...certainly more solid, throughout the lineup, than they were when TD left. Then, they need to get lucky. A HC needs to turn to gold, instead of to s#it. Using Miami as an example, how many bad head coaches did they have to go through to find Sparano? And, is it Tony, or Parcells?

 

They need to make better decisions in who to hire in the front office and in-turn, who is hired to coach. Mike Tomlin isn't getting big money, but their front office obviously is a good judge of coaching talent. Marv screwed up hiring a coach who is hopelessly out-classed by rookie HC's and bad HC's. He is an embarrassment to the franchise. They don't need to get lucky, they need people who know what they're looking for. And right now, that front office is among the worst in the league. Russ might know how to market, but he couldn't pick a HC who could win to save his life.

 

Then, they have to have some luck with injuries. Now, every team has injuries, but the Bills were decimated last year, and hit pretty hard this year, too. Plus, as I already mentioned, the Bills aren't other teams...they are the Bills. They aren't going to trade away high draft picks the way the Redskins might. That has been true, for the most part, with every Bills GM.

 

The Baltimore Ravens admittedly have a good defense. But with 17 guys on IR, rookie HC, and rookie QB, they're in position to advance to the post-season. For goodness sakes, they had Justin Bannan and Jim Leonhard starting today!

Buffalo's draft record, as BADOL pointed out, beyond the 2nd round is pitiful. I like Fine and Steve Johnson, but aside from Edwards, this team has little to show of value beyond their top picks.

 

Finally (at least for this post) one of their QBs has to pan out. JP had promise...was horrible handled...and is broken now. He may find a way to get fixed somewhere, but it won't be in Buffalo. Edwards looked like a good young prospect, and still may turn out to be the guy we need...but, you have to have doubts after he turned sour midseason.

 

JP failed because he has a million dollar arm with a ten cent brain. He also has the accuracy of Steve Vaughn without glasses. He was a project QB when he came out, and no matter who was coaching him, wouldn't have succeeded. Bill Walsh could not have made JP a legit NFL starter. He had an OK season in 06, but could never progress because he was one dimensional.

 

Still, I think that, if this coach, or the next one, can be competent and have "smart balls", this team is 4-5 players short of being a real contender. They already have playoff caliber talent, IMO.

 

We're 4-5 players away every year. The Bills need an OLB, S, DT, pass rushing DE, G, C, and another TE.

 

Hey, a PG post!!!

[dave mcbride]

the Titans are the exception that proves the rule,

Just a little bugbear of mine, but this oft-used cliche makes no logical sense whatsoever. If there's an obvious exception to the rule, there's no "rule" to prove.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Just a little bugbear of mine, but this oft-used cliche makes no logical sense whatsoever. If there's an obvious exception to the rule, there's no "rule" to prove.

It's not from logic. It's from English law.

[Dibs]

In this case, the Titans are the exception that proves the rule......

But which are the non exceptions that actually prove the rule? There are many bad teams that have invested heavily in the draft obtaining linemen.......there are many good teams that have invested to similar levels as the Bills have in drafting linemen......there are many bad teams that have invested to similar levels as the Bills have in drafting linemen......there are a couple of good teams that have invested heavily in the draft obtaining linemen.

 

THERE IS NO RULE!

To try and put a simplistic one line rule on a massively complex situation is ludicrous......and the actual facts never support the rule.

[The Dean]

It's not from logic. It's from English law.

 

 

I believe it actually goes all the way back to Cicero. But, what it REALLY means that, if there is an exception specifically stated, then the general rule is implied can be inferred from it. Take this example from the font of all knowledge, Wikipedia:

 

A sign that says "parking prohibited on Sundays" (the exception) "proves" that parking is allowed on the other six days of the week (the rule).

 

It is simply nonsense when used the way BADO used it. I believe he meant, "an exception to the rule", which if perfectly acceptable.

 

I'm with Dibs on this. There may be a way that is most prevalent, but a team can be built any number of ways. If you don't draft DBs, you eventually have to get them in FA and they, like all good FAs, are extremely expensive. Somehow, over the past three years (and some going back to the TD era) the Bills have decent talent on their lines, with the exception of DE due to Schobel's injury and Center. Yes, it may need to be improved, but I am a firm believer that a quality Center and TE, and an aggressive style, will help this talent look much better.

 

Same with the D. Aggressive pass rush, tight bump coverage off the line... Even with the current talent, and the injuries, this D is better when they are aggressive.

[Steely Dan]

 

Johnson is definitely looking good. I think he caught more slants today than any Bills' WR in the last year totaled.

 

Johnson may just be the steal of the draft. A receiver can take three years to develop and it's usually the very high picks that develop faster. It sure looks like this kid has a great future.

 

My wife of nearly nine years says the same thing.

 

Don't most wives supposedly know their husbands better than they know themselves?

 

 

Pyrite?

 

 

Where has Pyrite been?

 

Sorry, couldn't resist. I do agree with most of your most. However, I'd suggest we're better than 4-5 players away. I'd say 2 maybe 3. We need to upgrade Ellison and we need a QB. That's 2 for certain. Trent may still be the guy, but one of the great tragedies of this season has been that we still just don't know.

 

Certainly it can be argued that we need all sorts of other upgrades. But, I'll counter much of that sentiment with.... how much better would we look this season if the offensive coaching and head coaching had resembled anything competent? Today's game was a perfect example. We had the talent on the field to win, but we blew it. The Jets didn't beat us, we beat ourselves. And I think you could say that for about 2-3 other games this season.

 

Some people are saying the talent and others are saying the coaching. Put me in the coaching boat. I honestly think this is a 10-6 team, at least, with a Sparano or other great HC. Look what he's done with Miami's talent.

 

 

good to hear the Bills are thinking about upgrading at C.

 

they only ignored the position for 15 years since Kent Hull retired, so I can understand their urgency in addressing this critical roster spot in this upcoming off season

 

 

The point is, they haven't ignored it. They just haven't addressed it successfully, so far. After Ostrowski, there was Conaty. He stunk, so they brought in Teague, drafted Duke Preston, brought in Fowler...and I am probably missing others that they drafted, or brought in. It isn't as if they weren't trying to fill the position.

 

No, IMO they've ignored it. They've always tried second tier answers. They need to draft a guy high in the draft. Great centers don't hit FA often.

 

I can believe they didn't like any C in last years draft but what about the last 15?

[marauderswr80]

He would be a real nice player with a DL that can generate sacks or at this point pressure......

[Bill from NYC]

I agree that the Bills have done well with their 1st picks.

 

And this of course is based on your admiration of Levy, not logic. The Bills haven't made the playoffs for 9 or so years. Their first round picks that are doing so "well" are part of the problem.

 

PS: Levy was toast a decade ago.

[Bill from NYC]

But, despite the insistence of you and Bill, the draft isn't the ONLY WAY to acquire talented linemen. On the Titans offensive line, only Michael Roos was drafted by Tennessee.

 

In another thread you talked about how hard it is to bring free agents to Buffalo. Here, you seem to imply how easily they can get quality free agents to come here, let alone blockers. No problem, right?

 

Why not skip all the nonsense and start a thread about how much you support Dick Levy? This is where you are going; it is easy to read. At the end of the day, you think that Levy did a good job in his second time around, right?

[BuffalOhio]

He is very quick. I wish he'd play tighter more often though. I hate that this defense, in general, seems to give a 10 yard cushion on seemingly every pass play.

 

As Bills fans, Corp, how long have we been saying that?

[Hazed and Amuzed]

No, I wasn't referring to you. I barely know who you are.

[The Senator]

It's about the coaching far more than it is about the talent on the field....

.

.

.

...IMO.

fixed

[The Dean]

In another thread you talked about how hard it is to bring free agents to Buffalo. Here, you seem to imply how easily they can get quality free agents to come here, let alone blockers. No problem, right?

 

Why not skip all the nonsense and start a thread about how much you support Dick Levy? This is where you are going; it is easy to read. At the end of the day, you think that Levy did a good job in his second time around, right?

 

 

Show me where I implied that it is EASY for the Bills to get FAs.

 

Go ahead, since you are in attack mode...back it up.

[VOR]

Show me where I implied that it is EASY for the Bills to get FAs.

 

Go ahead, since you are in attack mode...back it up.

It's easy, just not cheap.

[Cookiemonster]

What's funny is that I bet in a year we're going to have the debate over whether it's too risky to have McKelvin returning kicks. He's going to be that good of a corner.

 

(By the way, unlike Dierdorf, I'm not sold on the Corto hold call on McKelvin's return--seemed ticky-tack to me).

Not sold? It was outright a phantom call, they replayed it on TV, and the commentators stated something like, "oh yeah,

there it is, he brushed his facemask", if that was a push in the back, then the moon is made of cheese. OBTW, not sure

who was the victim, I think it was Stroud that was clearly held on the Jets first offensive play from scrimmage, a 20 some

yard completion. They hate us.

[The Dean]

It's easy, just not cheap.

 

 

True, to a point. For some top flight stars, I don't even think it is easy.

 

I do think it is easier to attract quality linemen to Buffalo, than it is quality "skill position" players. QBs, RBs, WRs and CBs live in the limelight, crave media coverage and endorsements. OTOH, linemen are always more annonymous and don't get that kind of exposure. Buffalo is a fine place for a big ugly. Of course, as Bill will point out, there typically are fewer quality linemen in FA.

 

Still. every team uses a mix of draft picks and FAs to build their team. Tennesse has ONE original draft pick on their starting line...the rest were acquired through FA.

[Guest dog14787]

True, to a point. For some top flight stars, I don't even think it is easy.

 

I do think it is easier to attract quality linemen to Buffalo, than it is quality "skill position" players. QBs, RBs, WRs and CBs live in the limelight, crave media coverage and endorsements. OTOH, linemen are always more annonymous and don't get that kind of exposure. Buffalo is a fine place for a big ugly. Of course, as Bill will point out, there typically are fewer quality linemen in FA.

 

Still. every team uses a mix of draft picks and FAs to build their team. Tennesse has ONE original draft pick on their starting line...the rest were acquired through FA.

 

 

Its not easy or we would have a good TE right now.

 

McKelvin is awesome.

[Wooderson]

I think Leodis is the real deal. Considering he only has a few CB starts under his belt, I like his progress, a LOT. His return game is strong as hell, too.

 

Now, I know that there are people (hi Bill) who don't like DBs picked in the first round, and would be happier with a bust lineman. But, that aside, the crap this guy was taking after his first start was not deserved. He is a star in the making, IMO.

 

I completely agree, this guy has been great the last few games. He seems like he's really starting to pick things up and get comfortable in the defense. I think he's gonna be a strong corner as he matures. His returns are nasty.

[Bill from NYC]

Show me where I implied that it is EASY for the Bills to get FAs.

 

Go ahead, since you are in attack mode...back it up.

 

>>>But, despite the insistence of you and Bill, the draft isn't the ONLY WAY to acquire talented linemen. On the Titans offensive line, only Michael Roos was drafted by Tennessee.<<<

 

This implies that "if Tennessee can do it, so can the Bills," doesn't it?

 

Brian, who was the last star blocker drafted by the Bills? I am going to go with Ruben Brown, and that was in 1995!!!!!! Now, why don't you read through this and count the first day defensive backs since then. I make the case that you defend the indefensible because of your admiration for Levy, the guy who brought us Jauron. Your loyalty is to be admired, but the result of the Levy/Jauron mess is a crew of small, highly paid defensive backs and no pass rush, and continued holes up front on the offensive side.

 

Besides....."attack mode?" You mentioned me in the OP, no? Remember, I like bust linemen more than good players? I wish you were still in these parts to watch games. I just bought a new TV. There.....there's my freaking attack.

 

Is losing taking a personal toll on us?

[Guest dog14787]

>>>But, despite the insistence of you and Bill, the draft isn't the ONLY WAY to acquire talented linemen. On the Titans offensive line, only Michael Roos was drafted by Tennessee.<<<

 

This implies that "if Tennessee can do it, so can the Bills," doesn't it?

 

Brian, who was the last star blocker drafted by the Bills? I am going to go with Ruben Brown, and that was in 1995!!!!!! Now, why don't you read through this and count the first day defensive backs since then. I make the case that you defend the indefensible because of your admiration for Levy, the guy who brought us Jauron. Your loyalty is to be admired, but the result of the Levy/Jauron mess is a crew of small, highly paid defensive backs and no pass rush, and continued holes up front on the offensive side.

 

Besides....."attack mode?" You mentioned me in the OP, no? Remember, I like bust linemen more than good players? I wish you were still in these parts to watch games. I just bought a new TV. There.....there's my freaking attack.

 

Is losing taking a personal toll on us?

 

Nashville is an attractive place to go with a winning tradition, what makes you think Buffalo has anything to attract players besides money?

 

If we did, Crumpler might be playing for us instead of the Titans.

[Steely Dan]

[/b]

Not sold? It was outright a phantom call, they replayed it on TV, and the commentators stated something like, "oh yeah,

there it is, he brushed his facemask", if that was a push in the back, then the moon is made of cheese. OBTW, not sure

who was the victim, I think it was Stroud that was clearly held on the Jets first offensive play from scrimmage, a 20 some

yard completion. They hate us.

 

I couldn't even see his hand on the facemask! It was definitely a phantom call.

[Dawgg]

To try and put a simplistic one line rule on a massively complex situation is ludicrous......and the actual facts never support the rule.

 

To try and complicate a fairly simple equation to justify the continued mismanagement of the Buffalo Bills franchise is even more ludicrous.

 

The bottom line: For years, the Bills front office has drafted poorly and misallocated free agent resources. Hence, the playoff drought.

[VOR]

Nashville is an attractive place to go with a winning tradition, what makes you think Buffalo has anything to attract players besides money?

The Titans have a "winning tradition?" Not really. But yes, Buffalo isn't a place players want to go, unless they're well-paid.

 

If we did, Crumpler might be playing for us instead of the Titans.

Forget Crumpler: Gonzalez.

[The Dean]

>>>But, despite the insistence of you and Bill, the draft isn't the ONLY WAY to acquire talented linemen. On the Titans offensive line, only Michael Roos was drafted by Tennessee.<<<

 

This implies that "if Tennessee can do it, so can the Bills," doesn't it?

 

Brian, who was the last star blocker drafted by the Bills? I am going to go with Ruben Brown, and that was in 1995!!!!!! Now, why don't you read through this and count the first day defensive backs since then. I make the case that you defend the indefensible because of your admiration for Levy, the guy who brought us Jauron. Your loyalty is to be admired, but the result of the Levy/Jauron mess is a crew of small, highly paid defensive backs and no pass rush, and continued holes up front on the offensive side.

 

Besides....."attack mode?" You mentioned me in the OP, no? Remember, I like bust linemen more than good players? I wish you were still in these parts to watch games. I just bought a new TV. There.....there's my freaking attack.

 

Is losing taking a personal toll on us?

 

 

I don't think it's easy to attract good FAs. I also don't think it is easy to draft players that consistently perform well. You want to attack Levy's draft strategy, fine. But, to say that this team isn't in better shape, top-to-bottom, than what it was in 2005 is insane, IMO.

 

Despite what you and Dwagg think, this has NOTHING to do with my "admiration of Levy". That is total nonsense. I'm just not a knee-jerk hater. I even defended TD for many years, as the attacks on him were disproportionate to his drafts. After he didn't address issues that needed to be addressed, in five years of his reign, it was clear that he needed to go. But, even TD wasn't the horrible nightmare that many make him out to be. He was a gambler, that lost too many rolls of the dice. What Levy had to do, was build a team that was ravaged by those gambling losses, and he did a fine job, in the two drafts he oversaw, This team is no longer an aging mess, with giant holes in important positions. If you can't acknowledge that, then I think it is YOUR feeling about Levy getting in the way.

[Bill from NYC]

This team is no longer an aging mess, with giant holes in important positions. If you can't acknowledge that, then I think it is YOUR feeling about Levy getting in the way.

 

True. We are now a younger mess, with gaping holes at important positions. We have 1 DT. The rest suck. We have 1 DE. The rest suck. We have 2 professional caliber LBs. The rest suck. We have no TEs. They all suck. We have 2 Centers. To say they suck is to give them undue praise. One of them is shoving a football up his ass. Our OGs are so-so. I am seeing holes Brian, how about you?

 

Somebody has to be held accountable for this mess. Obviously, Ralph gets the lion's share of the blame for bringing in an 80 year old Levy who nobody else would have hired. I think that this is beyond dispute. Levy then hired a coach who is a tried and true serial loser, that has virtually no chance at taking a team to a playoff spot, ever. So..... no, they didn't hire themselves. Ralph did it, and is now rewarding this complete failure of a coach with a new contract, and presumably a raise.

Did we do something awful to deserve this garbage?

 

It doesn't matter that these guys are Ivy League Grads, and the little quips stopped being cute a long time ago. We need to win games, not only to enjoy our team, but perhaps even to save the franchise.

Dick Levy just aint cuttin' it.

[Dawgg]

Despite what you and Dwagg think, this has NOTHING to do with my "admiration of Levy". That is total nonsense. I'm just not a knee-jerk hater. I even defended TD for many years, as the attacks on him were disproportionate to his drafts. After he didn't address issues that needed to be addressed, in five years of his reign, it was clear that he needed to go. But, even TD wasn't the horrible nightmare that many make him out to be. He was a gambler, that lost too many rolls of the dice. What Levy had to do, was build a team that was ravaged by those gambling losses, and he did a fine job, in the two drafts he oversaw, This team is no longer an aging mess, with giant holes in important positions. If you can't acknowledge that, then I think it is YOUR feeling about Levy getting in the way.

 

I won't even discuss Whitner. For argument sake, I will agree with you that Whitner is an all-pro caliber player

 

The defensive end position is worse off today than it was when Levy took over. Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big money deal forced the Bills hand into resigning an aging Schobel with 3 years left on his deal. No wonder the Bills can't get a pass rush. Both those moves were big mistakes. For a team limited on resources, devoting such heavy resources to a player like Chris Kelsay is the epitome of the amateur-like moves made by the front office.

 

Levy's hard-on for Poz cost the team a high third round pick. In doing so, he moved up in the draft to nab a player who has yet to distinguish himself as a premier player. Granted it's early in his career, David Harris of the Jets, who was taken just a few picks later in the same draft, has shown far more athleticism and ability than Poz has. The defense was better off with London Fletcher manning the middle, despite fans' eagerness to run him out of town.

 

The McCargo pick set this franchise back significantly. When you trade up in a deep draft, the pressure to hit on the pick increases exponentially. McCargo has been an abject bust and the Bills have paid dearly in the form of shoddy DL play. Stroud was a nice acquisition, but it was a move that had to be made in order to fix the mess Levy created.

 

The Dockery and Walker signings were flat out stupid. To say that Levy addressed the offensive line by signing Dockery and Walker is like me justifying the purchase of a Honda for the price of a Ferrari. Good teams in small markets spend their dollars wisely. Dockery is simply not a dominant interior lineman, yet he is paid like one. It's no wonder that Jason Peters is upset with his deal. And it's no wonder the Bills haven't sniffed the playoffs in 9 years.

 

Marv Levy's strategy: Ignoring the offensive line in the draft, then following that up by overpaying marginal players. Not a winning formula. The product on the field speaks for itself.

 

Fred Jackson, Marshawn Lynch and Trend Edwards are impact players and represent bright spots from the Levy regime. Aside from that, Levy has done little to improve the outlook of this franchise.

[Guest dog14787]

I won't even discuss Whitner. For argument sake, I will agree with you that Whitner is an all-pro caliber player

 

The defensive end position is worse off today than it was when Levy took over. Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big money deal forced the Bills hand into resigning an aging Schobel with 3 years left on his deal. No wonder the Bills can't get a pass rush. Both those moves were big mistakes. For a team limited on resources, devoting such heavy resources to a player like Chris Kelsay is the epitome of the amateur-like moves made by the front office.

 

Levy's hard-on for Poz cost the team a high third round pick. In doing so, he moved up in the draft to nab a player who has yet to distinguish himself as a premier player. Granted it's early in his career, David Harris of the Jets, taken in the same draft has shown far more athleticism and ability than Poz has. The defense was better off with London Fletcher manning the middle, despite fans' eagerness to run him out of town.

 

The McCargo pick set this franchise back significantly. When you trade up in a deep draft, the pressure to hit on the pick increases exponentially. McCargo has been an abject bust and the Bills have paid dearly in the form of shoddy DL play. Stroud was a nice acquisition, but it was a move that had to be made in order to fix the mess Levy created.

 

The Dockery and Walker signings were flat out stupid. To say that Levy addressed the offensive line by signing Dockery and Walker is like me justifying the purchase of a Honda for the price of a Ferrari. Good teams in small markets spend their dollars wisely. Dockery is simply not a dominant interior lineman, yet he is paid like one. It's no wonder that Jason Peters is upset with his deal. And it's no wonder the Bills haven't sniffed the playoffs in 9 years.

 

Marv Levy's strategy: Ignoring the offensive line in the draft, then following that up by overpaying marginal players. Not a winning formula. The product on the field speaks for itself.

 

Fred Jackson, Marshawn Lynch and Trend Edwards are impact players and represent bright spots from the Levy regime. Aside from that, Levy has done little to improve the outlook of this franchise.

 

 

You say the Dockery and Walker signings were stupid yet we clearly needed to improve Our O-line. How do you suppose we do this without bringing in FA's that are proven? Drafing them can be hit and miss.

 

In my opinion the O-line has been playing pretty doggon good as of late.

[Dawgg]

In my opinion the O-line has been playing pretty doggon good as of late.

 

They have played well by Buffalo Bills standards, which is pathetically low. Yes, the line has stepped up its game since the Cleveland game, but the bottom line is that Dockery and Walker aren't consistent enough to justify their exorbitant salaries.

 

You say that drafting linemen is hit or miss. Drafting anything is hit or miss -- but when you have a good scouting department, the chances of a miss diminish greatly. Look at Carolina and see how they built the key components of their line.

[BillsVet]

Re-signing Chris Kelsay to a big money deal forced the Bills hand into resigning an aging Schobel with 3 years left on his deal. No wonder the Bills can't get a pass rush. Both those moves were big mistakes. For a team limited on resources, devoting such heavy resources to a player like Chris Kelsay is the epitome of the amateur-like moves made by the front office.

Dockery is simply not a dominant interior lineman, yet he is paid like one. It's no wonder that Jason Peters is upset with his deal. And it's no wonder the Bills haven't sniffed the playoffs in 9 years.

 

I have to wonder if Marv even remotely thought there'd be repercussions by handing out deals to Kelsay and Dockery. Like clockwork, Schobel and Peters came calling, and the former received a huge deal as a result of a moderate deal for Kelsay. And Peters will get a mega-deal at some point this off-season because Dockery got big money.

 

Don't the front office number crunchers have the savvy to realize players want to be paid when someone close to them gets a fat contract? Don't they anticipate human nature, which is to say that people get jealous when someone makes more money and doesn't produce like they can?

 

You don't have to have an Ivy League or Ivy-League caliber degree to read between the lines to see Marv and Dick are guys with great diplomas and plenty of book smarts. Their demonstrated lack of football savvy, both in personnel and on the field leave a lot to be desired.

[Dawgg]

I have to wonder if Marv even remotely thought there'd be repercussions by handing out deals to Kelsay and Dockery. Like clockwork, Schobel and Peters came calling, and the former received a huge deal as a result of a moderate deal for Kelsay. And Peters will get a mega-deal at some point this off-season because Dockery got big money.

 

In today's NFL, being good at evaluating talent isn't enough. You need to understand talent and how it works in the context of your salary cap. You have to place the appropriate value on players and understand what you are paying them relative to their open market value.

 

Marv openly used to talk about how he didn't know anything about that "cap stuff" which is one of the reasons he was such an awful GM.

[BADOLBILZ]

But which are the non exceptions that actually prove the rule? There are many bad teams that have invested heavily in the draft obtaining linemen.......there are many good teams that have invested to similar levels as the Bills have in drafting linemen......there are many bad teams that have invested to similar levels as the Bills have in drafting linemen......there are a couple of good teams that have invested heavily in the draft obtaining linemen.

 

THERE IS NO RULE!

To try and put a simplistic one line rule on a massively complex situation is ludicrous......and the actual facts never support the rule.

 

There is a rule. Games are won and lost at the line of scrimmage. It's time tested. How teams get good at the LOS may vary, but when you don't make an honest attempt on draft day, you better be getting it done otherwise. The Bills don't. Meanwhile, the dominant team in the league this decade resides in their own division and continues to manhandle them game after game, season after season, with Brady or without using an offensive and defensive line of homegrown players of excellent draft pedigree.

[Dibs]

There is a rule. Games are won and lost at the line of scrimmage. It's time tested. How teams get good at the LOS may vary, but when you don't make an honest attempt on draft day, you better be getting it done otherwise. The Bills don't. Meanwhile, the dominant team in the league this decade resides in their own division and continues to manhandle them game after game, season after season, with Brady or without using an offensive and defensive line of homegrown players of excellent draft pedigree.

Yes. I agree that the LOS is vital. To imply that the Bills FO does not know this is and ignores it is simply not true. All of the decent-big contracts handed out on this team have been to the trenches(Evans excepted). The problem hasn't been that we have not tried to shore up the lines......it's that they made mistakes on over-paying for under-performing linemen.

 

The problem is not positional strategy......the problem is talent analysis(or coaching perhaps).

[Steely Dan]

They have played well by Buffalo Bills standards, which is pathetically low. Yes, the line has stepped up its game since the Cleveland game, but the bottom line is that Dockery and Walker aren't consistent enough to justify their exorbitant salaries.

 

You say that drafting linemen is hit or miss. Drafting anything is hit or miss -- but when you have a good scouting department, the chances of a miss diminish greatly. Look at Carolina and see how they built the key components of their line.

 

I want to see what the guards can do once a decent center is put between them.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Yes. I agree that the LOS is vital. To imply that the Bills FO does not know this is and ignores it is simply not true. All of the decent-big contracts handed out on this team have been to the trenches(Evans excepted). The problem hasn't been that we have not tried to shore up the lines......it's that they made mistakes on over-paying for under-performing linemen.

 

The problem is not positional strategy......the problem is talent analysis(or coaching perhaps).

A certain Buffalo Bills front office person once said, "Building a line is no big deal. You just get 5 fat guys and get them to play together." Does that sound like a front office that has good strategic planning and has its sh-- wired down real tight?

 

BTW, overpaying for average or below talent (Dockery, Walker, Teague, Kelsay), signing guys that don't fit the system or just can't play (Fowler, Reyes, Tripplett), drafting big-time busts (McCargo, Williams) are all systems of a common disease: the Bills as an organization just aren't very good at evaluating line play. You need a higher hit rate than Jason Peters and Aaron Schobel in 8-9 years.

[BillsVet]

A certain Buffalo Bills front office person once said, "Building a line is no big deal. You just get 5 fat guys and get them to play together." Does that sound like a front office that has good strategic planning and has its sh-- wired down real tight?

 

BTW, overpaying for average or below talent (Dockery, Walker, Teague, Kelsay), signing guys that don't fit the system or just can't play (Fowler, Reyes, Tripplett), drafting big-time busts (McCargo, Williams) are all systems of a common disease: the Bills as an organization just aren't very good at evaluating line play. You need a higher hit rate than Jason Peters and Aaron Schobel in 8-9 years.

 

Personally, I don't think that front office is good at evaluating anything. When they do find a guy, it's pure luck, but that's JMO. A quality front office, finds talent throughout the draft. Even though Donahoe wasn't spectacular by any means, that 06 draft isn't all that great from rounds 2-6. 07 looks the same wrt to middle rounds, and the book remains out in 08.

 

UFA is also a bungled mess since 2006, which coincides with Marv's majestical entrance as GM emeritus. I don't think it's a coincidence that ML drafted poorly with DJ. ML had BP to make him look good from 87-93.

 

Outside of first rounders, who can this team point to in the past few years from rounds 3-5 that are quality players. That's where scouts make their money, and they don't do it in Buffalo.

[Dibs]

.....Outside of first rounders, who can this team point to in the past few years from rounds 3-5 that are quality players. That's where scouts make their money, and they don't do it in Buffalo.

Williams & Butler are possibly decent starter level......put some quality next to them & they might show better ability. Ellis, Corner & Fine.....who knows at this point? Simpson most probably won't cut it in the long run IMO. Youboty looks good.....injury issues seem like they will doom him. I haven't given up on Edwards yet either