A Tricky Question

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

I took this poll as saying, would I be able to sacrifice Obama being the president, if the Bills won the Superbowl. Logically, I selected that I would prefer for my candidate to win.

 

While I really do not support McCain, I certainly do not support socialism and I would gladly sacrifice the Bills never winning the Superbowl for America to maintain and preserve its constitutional claim to democracy.

 

Who's trying to make America a socialist country?

[murra]

Who's trying to make America a socialist country?

 

It's a premature assessment I am willing to make. I have long said (not on these boards since I'm a new member obviously), that while I can't favor much of the republicans who are deserting their conservative values, I certainly cannot favor the democrats who are consistently trying at great lengths to make everyone equal. We're supposed to have equal rights, but we're not supposed to be equal. The whole point that makes our democracy so great is that you and I have the same chance to make it big. With that now possibly diminishing as the dems try to resolve poverty issues [refer to joe the plumber video where Obama actually says what he and the other dems have been thinking], we're blatantly heading into a more left social realm, and its hurting our freedom. I used the socialism because that's pretty much what that is, when you try to make everyone equal. You'll refute that because it is an ugly word, but thats just you dancing around reality.

[rockpile]

Football is just a game and this poll shows you don't have your priorities set in life regardless of who you're voting for.

 

My God and my family come before any pleasures in life.

 

 

That was not the question.

 

So, just for the sake of being an old fart who likes to ask questions from a different angle, do you NOT list God and your family as "pleasures in your life"?

 

That is kinda scary.

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

It's a premature assessment I am willing to make. I have long said (not on these boards since I'm a new member obviously), that while I can't favor much of the republicans who are deserting their conservative values, I certainly cannot favor the democrats who are consistently trying at great lengths to make everyone equal. We're supposed to have equal rights, but we're not supposed to be equal. The whole point that makes our democracy so great is that you and I have the same chance to make it big. With that now possibly diminishing as the dems try to resolve poverty issues [refer to joe the plumber video where Obama actually says what he and the other dems have been thinking], we're blatantly heading into a more left social realm, and its hurting our freedom. I used the socialism because that's pretty much what that is, when you try to make everyone equal. You'll refute that because it is an ugly word, but thats just you dancing around reality.

 

Well...

 

1. We don't actually live in a democracy. We live in a republic. If America were a democracy then the voting public, not congressmen, would vote on creating legislation and passing bills. In a democracy, the people make decisions. In a republic, the people decide on other people who will make decisions for them. That's us.

 

2. Socialism is not the oppositie of democracy, it's the opposite of capitalism. Democracy is a system of government, socialism is an economic theory, opposite of capitalism. It is indeed possible to live in a democratic socialist country.

 

Anyway, liberals are not trying to make everyone equal, just to give everyone equal opportunities. Tax breaks for families who have trouble feeding their kids, unemployment checks to folks looking for work, throwing money at underpriviledged schools so that inner city kids might some day compete with rich private school kids...none of those are bad things. Unfortunately, there are people that abuse these systems and are just looking for a handout, but that's not the norm.

 

There has to be a middle ground. Should we start initiatives to make every single person equal in wealth? No. Should we leave people high and dry for them and their children to starve? No.

[ChasBB]

Let's see -- a choice between two bowls of sh-- or a Super Bowl victory. I'll take the Super Bowl, thank you very much!!

[The Dean]

Well...

 

1. We don't actually live in a democracy. We live in a republic. If America were a democracy then the voting public, not congressmen, would vote on creating legislation and passing bills. In a democracy, the people make decisions. In a republic, the people decide on other people who will make decisions for them. That's us.

 

2. Socialism is not the oppositie of democracy, it's the opposite of capitalism. Democracy is a system of government, socialism is an economic theory, opposite of capitalism. It is indeed possible to live in a democratic socialist country.

 

Anyway, liberals are not trying to make everyone equal, just to give everyone equal opportunities. Tax breaks for families who have trouble feeding their kids, unemployment checks to folks looking for work, throwing money at underpriviledged schools so that inner city kids might some day compete with rich private school kids...none of those are bad things. Unfortunately, there are people that abuse these systems and are just looking for a handout, but that's not the norm.

 

There has to be a middle ground. Should we start initiatives to make every single person equal in wealth? No. Should we leave people high and dry for them and their children to starve? No.

 

 

"America is a unique society in which we have free enterprise for the poor and socialism for the rich." --Gore Vidal

[Guest dog14787]

Football is just a game and this poll shows you don't have your priorities set in life regardless of who you're voting for.

 

My God and my family come before any pleasures in life.

 

Or maybe it shows one choice is about as good or bad as the other so why not win the Superbowl.

 

I'm sure God will understand.

[Boatdrinks]

Football is just a game and this poll shows you don't have your priorities set in life regardless of who you're voting for.

 

My God and my family come before any pleasures in life.

 

You are flat out wrong, my friend. The fact is the President has very little effect on our day to day lives and politicians could give a crap about anyone but multimillionaires in this country. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. You have your priorities mixed up as you believe politics and religion mix. Newsflash: they don't.Your view is everything that is wrong with this country today. I don't believe in your "god" and political strongarming shouldn't force me to. Politics is about finances only. How on earth do you equate an election with god and family? Are you that worried that somewhere a gay might get married, or an unwanted pregnancy is aborted ? Go out and purchase a freaking life. Give me a Bills Superbowl win over either Dem Or GOP douchebag anyday.

[nucci]

You are flat out wrong, my friend. The fact is the President has very little effect on our day to day lives and politicians could give a crap about anyone but multimillionaires in this country. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. You have your priorities mixed up as you believe politics and religion mix. Newsflash: they don't.Your view is everything that is wrong with this country today. I don't believe in your "god" and political strongarming shouldn't force me to. Politics is about finances only. How on earth do you equate an election with god and family? Are you that worried that somewhere a gay might get married, or an unwanted pregnancy is aborted ? Go out and purchase a freaking life. Give me a Bills Superbowl win over either Dem Or GOP douchebag anyday.

[The Dean]

Football is just a game and this poll shows you don't have your priorities set in life regardless of who you're voting for.

 

My God and my family come before any pleasures in life.

 

 

I choose the SuperBowl and admit it was a purely selfish choice. Of course the Presidential election is more important.

 

For me, though, the SB victory will have a bigger impact on my happiness and my life. I have no kids, I'm self-employed (with no employees) and that probably won't be impacted by whoever is in office (although, if Obama gets his health care plan through, I might actually be able to afford health care...but, the President doesn't get to set the national health care policies, so I see no big change in the near future). Even if some right-wing religious nut-bag takes over, they aren't likely to impact my life, as I will remain ever agnostic.

[murra]

Well...

 

1. We don't actually live in a democracy. We live in a republic. If America were a democracy then the voting public, not congressmen, would vote on creating legislation and passing bills. In a democracy, the people make decisions. In a republic, the people decide on other people who will make decisions for them. That's us.

 

2. Socialism is not the oppositie of democracy, it's the opposite of capitalism. Democracy is a system of government, socialism is an economic theory, opposite of capitalism. It is indeed possible to live in a democratic socialist country.

 

Anyway, liberals are not trying to make everyone equal, just to give everyone equal opportunities. Tax breaks for families who have trouble feeding their kids, unemployment checks to folks looking for work, throwing money at underpriviledged schools so that inner city kids might some day compete with rich private school kids...none of those are bad things. Unfortunately, there are people that abuse these systems and are just looking for a handout, but that's not the norm.

 

There has to be a middle ground. Should we start initiatives to make every single person equal in wealth? No. Should we leave people high and dry for them and their children to starve? No.

 

First of all, there was no need for your attempt at defining words to make yourself look smart. You're wrong, we are a democracy. A representative democracy, not a republic. Representative democracy enables men to represent their constituencies. This is necessary when you're dealing with a nation as large as ours, so save your "we're not a democracy bullsh*t for little kids," its a childish claim and a blatant cop-out on the topic at hand.

 

Next (notice I'm ignoring your ignorant attempt at sidelining my socialism claim), I'd like to discuss your assessment that liberals are not trying to make everyone equal, allow everyone to have equal rights. This is where the main issue lies, and while you talked about tax breaks and made it all sound nice and pretty on paper, you fail to recognize the reality of the propositions of their "movement". Its not as simple as, oh give them tax breaks, pay for schools, otherwise do you want children to starve to death. No, its much much much farther beyond that. The people who are attempting to dissent the whole tax break thing are always made out to sound like nazis. I think that in almost all situations the liberals would prefer to avoid the situation of poverty by applying their pathetic attempts at equalizing everyone. Thankfully, Hillary did not win the primary, or then we would be in real trouble with this. Obama, however, is showing more signs of being a puppet, more so than Bush, which scares me. Anyone hiding behind "change" as their campaign slogan really scares me, considering that is typically the point of an election. He's trying to branch out to the anti-war America who are mostly not aware of his fascination with socialist policies.

 

Social programs directed at curing the poverty issue in the end infringe greatly on the middle-class who has worked hard to get where they are and does not deserve anyone taking away their money with excessive taxes. These people have forfeited their moral values in an attempt to make everything equal. They have done whatever they can to make those hand-outs (the same ones you for some reason pretend did not occur often) as easy as possible to receive. You're probably going to ignore most of what I said, and argue this last point, then ask for more examples, which I'll gladly provide, however I'm going to class now and wont be back until later.

[The Dean]

First of all, there was no need for your attempt at defining words to make yourself look smart. You're wrong, we are a democracy. A representative democracy, not a republic. Representative democracy enables men to represent their constituencies. This is necessary when you're dealing with a nation as large as ours, so save your "we're not a democracy bullsh*t for little kids," its a childish claim and a blatant cop-out on the topic at hand.

 

 

The USA is a Federal Constitutional Republic, not a Representative Democracy.

[SouthernMan]

I'd get more out of the Bills winning than anything any of those reject "Presidential Candidates" will do for me

 

 

Exactly.

 

It doesn't matter THAT much which one is elected. The system of checks and balances will keep things realtively the same. Any change made by the new administration's policies can be reversed just as quickly in the next election cycle.

 

In the end, it's all about our pursuit of happiness. Neither candidate is going to make me THAT much happier or miserable.

You know what will make me eternally happy? Trent Edwards holding the Lombardi trophy over his head in victory this coming February.

 

As giddy as everyone is after this week's win - multiply that by about 50 if the Bills win a superbowl.

 

Whoever is elected is only temporary. A superbowl victory is forever.

 

As a Bills fan from days before OJ was drafted, I'd like to experience the joy of my team winning the big one - just once!

I'd love for all of Buffalo to finally have that sense of pride that would last a lifetime, and forever wipe out any stigma of 4 losses. Who knows? - that may be just the shot in the arm Western New York needs to turn itself around economically. Forget the empty promises of our new president.

 

I'd like to have that feeling just one time before the world as we know it is ended by the nitwit who might be elected in 2 weeks.

[KD in CA]

I really do feel any Bills fan who voted for rather seeing their guy winning the figurehead position of this country, and since both parties are loaded with $ and do not give a rat's ass about you and me, really needs to have their head examined.

 

+1

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

First of all, there was no need for your attempt at defining words to make yourself look smart. You're wrong, we are a democracy. A representative democracy, not a republic. Representative democracy enables men to represent their constituencies. This is necessary when you're dealing with a nation as large as ours, so save your "we're not a democracy bullsh*t for little kids," its a childish claim and a blatant cop-out on the topic at hand.

 

Next (notice I'm ignoring your ignorant attempt at sidelining my socialism claim), I'd like to discuss your assessment that liberals are not trying to make everyone equal, allow everyone to have equal rights. This is where the main issue lies, and while you talked about tax breaks and made it all sound nice and pretty on paper, you fail to recognize the reality of the propositions of their "movement". Its not as simple as, oh give them tax breaks, pay for schools, otherwise do you want children to starve to death. No, its much much much farther beyond that. The people who are attempting to dissent the whole tax break thing are always made out to sound like nazis. I think that in almost all situations the liberals would prefer to avoid the situation of poverty by applying their pathetic attempts at equalizing everyone. Thankfully, Hillary did not win the primary, or then we would be in real trouble with this. Obama, however, is showing more signs of being a puppet, more so than Bush, which scares me. Anyone hiding behind "change" as their campaign slogan really scares me, considering that is typically the point of an election. He's trying to branch out to the anti-war America who are mostly not aware of his fascination with socialist policies.

 

Social programs directed at curing the poverty issue in the end infringe greatly on the middle-class who has worked hard to get where they are and does not deserve anyone taking away their money with excessive taxes. These people have forfeited their moral values in an attempt to make everything equal. They have done whatever they can to make those hand-outs (the same ones you for some reason pretend did not occur often) as easy as possible to receive. You're probably going to ignore most of what I said, and argue this last point, then ask for more examples, which I'll gladly provide, however I'm going to class now and wont be back until later.

 

Hahaha I'm in class right now, I just prefer going on TBD over listening to this blowhard prof.

 

Anyway, your statement about the middle class just shows the arrogance of the middle and upper class. "I work hard for my money, it shouldn't be taken away so that lazy poor people can have it" You just assume that money is tied to working hard. How about the kid whose dad left before he was born and whose mom works 60 hours a week but who still can't make ends meet. That kid has to start working to support himself probably at the age of 14 or 15, he probably isn't receiving a good education at his poorly funded school, and he probably won't go to college for both of those reasons, and he might end up making pretty much close to minimum wage his entire life. It's a viscious cycle and anybody who just hides behind "the middle and upper class shouldn't be punished" clearly isn't in touch with the struggles of the lower class.

 

Barack Obama (I wholeheartedly agree, not a good candidate for president) wants to increase taxes on those making more than $250,000 a year. How does that hurt those people? Maybe they can't afford that in-ground pool anymore? If I ever end up making that much money, I will GLADLY give 70% of it away to charity because the feeling of helping your fellow man is better than having possessions IMO. You only need a certain amount of money to live comfortably, and I'm surprised more people don't feel guilty about saving up for that brand new BMW while others suffer needlessly.

 

People who make that much money don't necessarily work harder, they just work at jobs which require a higher skill level, skills they probably learned at college, which they probably went to because their middle or upper class parents could afford it. It is all a cycle, and it is not easy to change your social class from generation to generation. I'm confident that I would not be sitting in class right now if I had gone to an inner city Buffalo school instead of a school in the 'burbs.

 

And give me some examples of Obama's "fascination with socialist policies". I get the feeling you're being a little extreme about that.

 

And one more thing, do not belittle me by saying things like "you're probably going to ignore most of what I said..." I'm trying to have a frank discussion but if you're not going to take me seriously about it, then there's no point.

[ChasBB]

The USA is a Federal Constitutional Republic, not a Representative Democracy.

Absolutely!

 

"At the close of the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on September 18, 1787, a Mrs. Powel anxiously awaited the results and as Benjamin Franklin emerged from the long task now finished asked him directly, `Well, Doctor, what have we got? A republic or a monarchy?' `A republic, if you can keep it,' responded Franklin. " (several links avail to confirm this)

 

Franklin knew (as did many of our other founding fathers) that it would be no easy task to keep a republic and that it could easily deviate into a democracy and/or into tyranny (which indeed seems to be what is happening).

[Gavin in Va Beach]

I'd be ok with a clone of Lenin being president if it meant the Bills winning the Super Bowl.

 

 

Now that I think about it, there is a pretty strong resemblence between Obama and Lenin. Hmmm.....

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

And one more thing, the presidential election is a perfect example of how we don't live in a democracy and how the power is really not in the hands of the people. You said yourself that you're really not a McCain supporter, and you clearly dislike Obama. And yet, those are the only two people legitimately vying for the position! Does that sound like democracy to you? Being force fed two politicians? Or maybe four candidates who stand a legit chance if you include the primary process.

 

Imagine a restaurant where the waitress approaches you and says "This is the greatest restaurant in the world because you can order literally anything in the world that you want. That's right, anything in the world, it is completely your decision. In fact, we should do everything possible to make sure that every restaurant has this policy. Now, we're out of everything except the Cheeseburger and Spaghetti."

 

Those who dislike both candidates do NOT have their voices heard.

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

The USA is a Federal Constitutional Republic, not a Representative Democracy.

 

Thank you! Anybody who took 8th grade government knows that, but every day you hear about "American democracy" and "spreading democracy". I don't vote for anything this country does, only for the people who make those decisions. Andin most cases, I'm only given two choices. Those who think America puts power in the hands of the people wears blinders.

[JoeFerguson]

WHEN the Bills win the Super Bowl it really won't matter who is president. Buffalo's economy will boom. Jobs in WNY will increase by 500% and NYC will lose 80% of its population to Buffalo. All the money pumping into Buffalo will make the Bills the new "America's Team". Free agents will beg to come to Buffalo, the Bills will then probably win 3 to 4 more Super Bowls. There will no longer be any talk about the Bills moving to Toronto, the discussion will involve the Leafs moving to Buffalo. Jim Kelly will run for President and win in 2012. At that point a poll like this will be meaningless because we won't have to choose: Our favorite candidate will be President and the Bills will already have won the Super Bowl.