Phelps is great

[The Big Cat]

Should swimmers be held to a separate Olympic standard because of how many events they compete in?

 

By my calculations it would take the greatest shot putter in the history of the universe over 60 years just get as many attempts at a gold as Phelps has had in four.

 

I don't mean to take away from the guy, his accomplishments deserve recognition. But to call him the greatest OLYMPIAD ever? Doesn't seem fair.

[justnzane]

Should swimmers be held to a separate Olympic standard because of how many events they compete in?

 

By my calculations it would take the greatest shot putter in the history of the universe over 60 years just get as many attempts at a gold as Phelps has had in four.

 

I don't mean to take away from the guy, his accomplishments deserve recognition. But to call him the greatest OLYMPIAD ever? Doesn't seem fair.

Well, I find your argument fundementally flawed as your shot putter would also have to be great in disc, hammer, and javelin to be compared to Phelps. Just because swimming is swimming doesn't mean there isn't specialization within it. Phelps is just a once in a generation type athlete though.

 

As a track guy, I would not be insulted by any comparisons to Carl Lewis or Jackie Joyner Kersee as Phelps is that type of dominant athlete

[The Big Cat]

Well, I find your argument fundementally flawed as your shot putter would also have to be great in disc, hammer, and javelin to be compared to Phelps. Just because swimming is swimming doesn't mean there isn't specialization within it. Phelps is just a once in a generation type athlete though.

 

As a track guy, I would not be insulted by any comparisons to Carl Lewis or Jackie Joyner Kersee as Phelps is that type of dominant athlete

 

Okay, smart guy, well then substitute for shot put rifling, or boxing, or judo, or fencing, or sailing, or weight lifting.

 

And furthermore, no. If you're an Olympic swimmer- AND A GOOD ONE AT THAT- you're competing in AT LEAST two events. AT LEAST. If you're the best in your stroke, you're in one of the medley relays, on top of your own event, and possibly even the IM.

 

And my argument CAN'T be flawed, because if you're watching the Olympics they're calling him the greatest, and most decorated Olympic athlete ever. Olympic athlete. Not swimmer, runner, thrower, rower, tumbler, or shooter, but all the aforementioned.

[Lori]

Should swimmers be held to a separate Olympic standard because of how many events they compete in?

 

By my calculations it would take the greatest shot putter in the history of the universe over 60 years just get as many attempts at a gold as Phelps has had in four three.

 

I don't mean to take away from the guy, his accomplishments deserve recognition. But to call him the greatest OLYMPIAD ever? Doesn't seem fair.

Phelps just had to swim two finals an hour apart; it takes a special, and incredibly well-conditioned, athlete to hold up over Phelps' workload. That's why you don't hear about a Spitz or Biondi or Phelps every four years. Comparing him to a shot putter, or any other athlete who can concentrate on a single event? I don't think it's applicable.

 

Now, if you'd like to argue in favor of decathletes -- the decathalon record-holder has long been known as the "World's Greatest Athlete" -- I wouldn't disagree.

[The Big Cat]

Phelps just had to swim two finals an hour apart; it takes a special, and incredibly well-conditioned, athlete to hold up over Phelps' workload. That's why you don't hear about a Spitz or Biondi or Phelps every four years. Comparing him to a shot putter, or any other athlete who can concentrate on a single event? I don't think it's applicable.

 

Now, if you'd like to argue in favor of decathletes -- the decathalon record-holder has long been known as the "World's Greatest Athlete" -- I wouldn't disagree.

 

I don't think it's applicable either, that's the whole point. And swimmers swim multiple events, it's just a fact of the sport. When you tally how many Olympic events Michael Phelps has participated in, I think it's unfair to call him the "greatest Olympiad" given the small number of shots other athletes have had.

 

Personally I don't think the "he won two in one night" argument holds any water (pun intended) since that's what happens in swimming. Swimmers swim several times during one meet at every level.

[sweetbaboo]

I don't think it's applicable either, that's the whole point. And swimmers swim multiple events, it's just a fact of the sport. When you tally how many Olympic events Michael Phelps has participated in, I think it's unfair to call him the "greatest Olympiad" given the small number of shots other athletes have had.

 

Personally I don't think the "he won two in one night" argument holds any water (pun intended) since that's what happens in swimming. Swimmers swim several times during one meet at every level.

I don't even know how to argue this. Who would you consider a great Olympian? Who would you consider the greatest and why? Phelps has shown consistently in the last 3 Olympics that he stands out among the other Olympic athletes (of all sports) by demonstrating absolute dominance in his sport. Can you name another 3 athletes that are similar? How about just one? Outside of the Olympics, he's also dominating the entire sport of swimming rather than just one or two events. What he's done at the Olympics is mindboggling. He's not out-touching his opponents by fingertips. He's destroying them by full body lengths or more. This would be like an Olympic boxer coming out and knocking out all of his opponents with one punch.

 

As for swimmers swimming multiple events in one meet...yeah, they do that and it's absolutely brutal (try sprinting a 200m butterfly...) On top of that, regular swimmers also don't face fresh world class specialists in each event. Some of those specialists show up and only swim one event (i.e. Ian Crocker) before hanging it up for the rest of the meet.

 

Fair? Equating swimming to shotput or f*ucking rifling is unfair. If you're basing the media hype about him being the greatest Olympian solely off of his medal count, then I'd say that the media's focus on the number of gold medals he has is doing him injustice. Medals aside, his dominating performance alone would net him the title of best Olympian. A shot putter would have to throw his shot out of the stadium in multiple Olympics to impress the way Phelps is impressing.

 

Do I sound like some fanboy? Hopefully not...but as a swimmer, I'm flabbergasted at what he's doing. Everyone in the sport is. I know records will get broken over time, but I also figured they'd fall by hundredths of a second at a time...not 2 second smashes.

 

On another note, I can't believe 10m air pistol is an Olympic sport while softball is being eliminated.

[Alaska Darin]

You're right, there's probably another Olympian who has won back-to-back events with 54 minutes between them, setting both World and Olympic records. Oh, and Phelps has done it TWICE. IN THE SAME OLYMPICS. And if what Phelps has done is so unremarkable, why don't you tell me why another SWIMMER hasn't accomplished the same feat, since swimming has been an Olympic event since...Well, forever.

 

Jesus Christ, is there ever going to be any accomplishment that some !@#$ing blockhead isn't going to try and sh-- all over in an attempt to show how "smart" they really are?

[MarkAF43]

You're right, there's probably another Olympian who has won back-to-back events with 54 minutes between them, setting both World and Olympic records. Oh, and Phelps has done it TWICE. IN THE SAME OLYMPICS. And if what Phelps has done is so unremarkable, why don't you tell me why another SWIMMER hasn't accomplished the same feat, since swimming has been an Olympic event since...Well, forever.

 

Jesus Christ, is there ever going to be any accomplishment that some !@#$ing blockhead isn't going to try and sh-- all over in an attempt to show how "smart" they really are?

 

 

Of course that will never happen, that would be logical, it's kinda like me, I finally went and saw the Dark Knight, and after hearing how great Heath Ledger was, I wanted to try and prove he wasn't as good as people were making him out to be. However once it was over and as we were walking out of the movie, I turned to my GF and said holy sh-- ---- He was that damn good. If people would stop trying to go against the grain on everything they would realize Phelps is one of the greatest athletes of our time and accept it.

[Corp000085]

Anyone who puts swimming in "another category" has proven one thing: They've never swam competitively. If you're a basketball fan, and you say that swimming is not a difficult sport, go play some hoops at 100% energy level for an hour. You'll be beat, and you'll be saying that you got a great workout. Now come back the next day and swim a 200 fly at competition speed. You'll be crying to your momma when it's over. Swimming is as difficult as any sport out there. I still think that the decathalon winner is the greatest athelete, but michael phelps must be said in the same breath as muhammed ali, tiger woods, michael jordan, wayne gretzky, jim thorpe, etc. Like any "greatest ever" argument, it's nearly impossible to convince everyone that he is the greatest, but its less likely to convince them that he's not part of that group.

[Beerball]

Should swimmers be held to a separate Olympic standard because of how many events they compete in?

 

By my calculations it would take the greatest shot putter in the history of the universe over 60 years just get as many attempts at a gold as Phelps has had in four.

 

I don't mean to take away from the guy, his accomplishments deserve recognition. But to call him the greatest OLYMPIAD ever? Doesn't seem fair.

You would call him the greatest OLYMPIAN ever you silly cat.

 

IMO your lhojic is as flawed as your spelling. Can any track athlete compare? A runner would have as wide a range of events...has anyone dominated the running/jumping portion of an Olympics?

 

Give the man his due...he's earned it.

[LongLiveRalph]

Should swimmers be held to a separate Olympic standard because of how many events they compete in?

 

By my calculations it would take the greatest shot putter in the history of the universe over 60 years just get as many attempts at a gold as Phelps has had in four.

 

I don't mean to take away from the guy, his accomplishments deserve recognition. But to call him the greatest OLYMPIAD ever? Doesn't seem fair.

 

So who is the greatest Olympian ever? Carl Lewis? Jackie Joyner Kersey? Jesse Owens?

 

They all had multiple opportunities to win events (100m, long jump, relays, etc.) just like swimming.

 

It is perfectly fine if you think it is unfair to bestow this unofficial "title" on Phelps, but you should state who you consider to be the greatest Olympian ever, if not Phelps.

 

Something to be considered, other than TOTAL number of medals, is longevity. It's almost more impressive that Dara Torres has been able to remain a world-class swimmer for 20+ years, rather than racking up awards during her 6-year prime. That takes some serious physical stamina and even more mental stamina. Someone like Jackie Joyner-Kersey also set a standard for excellence in multiple events over an extended period.

[agilen]

I think the problem is the huge number of medals available to a swimmer as compared to another athlete. Phelps may be one of the best swimmers ever, I have no doubt about that. But 11 medals in 2 olympics are only available to a select few sports, and the media has utterly and completely gotten on the "how many shiny things can we look at at once" bandwagon.

 

Say there was olympic golf, for arguments sake. I'm going to bet that Tiger Woods would dominate that, because he is easily one of the greatest athletes in the history of sports. But, he'd still just win 1 gold medal, and to people who count the medals they'd say Phelps is a superior athlete. Make no mistake about it, the hype around Phelps is because of medal count. Other athletes could be just as dominant in their sport, but if they were only able to win 1, they wouldn't get the coverage.

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

I think the problem is the huge number of medals available to a swimmer as compared to another athlete. Phelps may be one of the best swimmers ever, I have no doubt about that. But 11 medals in 2 olympics are only available to a select few sports, and the media has utterly and completely gotten on the "how many shiny things can we look at at once" bandwagon.

 

Say there was olympic golf, for arguments sake. I'm going to bet that Tiger Woods would dominate that, because he is easily one of the greatest athletes in the history of sports. But, he'd still just win 1 gold medal, and to people who count the medals they'd say Phelps is a superior athlete. Make no mistake about it, the hype around Phelps is because of medal count. Other athletes could be just as dominant in their sport, but if they were only able to win 1, they wouldn't get the coverage.

 

 

It is not just his medal count, he keeps breaking WORLD RECORDS every time he swims. That means he is swimming faster than anyone ever has. If Tiger hit the greatest shot the world has ever seen at every hole, then sure he would be right up there with Phelps.

[RayFinkle]

Jesus Christ, is there ever going to be any accomplishment that some !@#$ing blockhead isn't going to try and sh-- all over in an attempt to show how "smart" they really are?

As long as the threat of Big Cat reproducing lingers, none of us is safe.

[The Big Cat]

Anyone who puts swimming in "another category" has proven one thing: They've never swam competitively. If you're a basketball fan, and you say that swimming is not a difficult sport, go play some hoops at 100% energy level for an hour. You'll be beat, and you'll be saying that you got a great workout. Now come back the next day and swim a 200 fly at competition speed. You'll be crying to your momma when it's over. Swimming is as difficult as any sport out there. I still think that the decathalon winner is the greatest athelete, but michael phelps must be said in the same breath as muhammed ali, tiger woods, michael jordan, wayne gretzky, jim thorpe, etc. Like any "greatest ever" argument, it's nearly impossible to convince everyone that he is the greatest, but its less likely to convince them that he's not part of that group.

 

I swam competitively for 8 years.

[LongLiveRalph]

It is not just his medal count, he keeps breaking WORLD RECORDS every time he swims. That means he is swimming faster than anyone ever has. If Tiger hit the greatest shot the world has ever seen at every hole, then sure he would be right up there with Phelps.

 

Phelps is unbelievable, and holds the majority of the world records in his events, but a world record from 2007 is dated in swimming at the moment.

 

It is supposedly a very fast pool, and the swimsuit (namely the Speedo TYR, I think its called) are making previous swimming records obsolete. There are races where the guy finishing in 5th place is breaking the previous world record.

 

That's not to take anything away from Phelps, because everyone is swimming faster and he's still the fastest. But, there are plenty of other variables other than just being a better swimmer than the previous world record holder.

[The Big Cat]

And for all of you who accuse ME of a smear compaigin- never did I say he wasn't the greastest swimmer, he clearly is. Never did I say his accomplishments aren't that big of a deal, in fact I believe I specifically addressed this.

 

ALL I'M SAYING: is that the media going goo goo gah gah over his MEDAL COUNT is unfair to other athletes who compete in ONE EVENT PER OLYMPICS!---> said athletes being the majority of OlympiaDS.

 

Sheesh.

 

And just out of curiosity-is there another swimmer (besides me) who has contributed to this thread?

[taterhill]

8 years of swimming? Next stop London

[agilen]

It is not just his medal count, he keeps breaking WORLD RECORDS every time he swims. That means he is swimming faster than anyone ever has. If Tiger hit the greatest shot the world has ever seen at every hole, then sure he would be right up there with Phelps.

 

NPR had a story yesterday (or maybe Monday?) about why all the records are being broken. Basically, the gist of it is that records are made to be broken, so they always will...but there are some good reasons why it is happening now.

 

The new swimsuits supposedly can shave 2% off a swimmer's time, which is over a second for every minute they swim. Also, the pool in Beijing is 3m deep, where as olympic standards are 2m. So, there is much more water to absorb the turbulence created by a pool full of swimmers, so the water is much calmer than in past olympic pools. They didn't quantify the difference this makes, but they seemed to imply that this made an even bigger difference than the swimsuits, hence we are seeing records broken by 4-5 seconds.

 

Now, Phelps is swimming in the same pool in the same suit as the other guys _right now_, and beating them, so yes, he is the best swimmer there is right now. But breaking world records with the above factors is probably somewhat expected during these olympics.

[John Adams]

ALL I'M SAYING: is that the media going goo goo gah gah over his MEDAL COUNT is unfair to other athletes who compete in ONE EVENT PER OLYMPICS!---> said athletes being the majority of OlympiaDS.

 

I let this slide once, but not twice when you capitalize it. OlympiaDs are separated by 4 years. The people who compete are OlympiaNs.

[The Big Cat]

NPR had a story yesterday (or maybe Monday?) about why all the records are being broken. Basically, the gist of it is that records are made to be broken, so they always will...but there are some good reasons why it is happening now.

 

The new swimsuits supposedly can shave 2% off a swimmer's time, which is over a second for every minute they swim. Also, the pool in Beijing is 3m deep, where as olympic standards are 2m. So, there is much more water to absorb the turbulence created by a pool full of swimmers, so the water is much calmer than in past olympic pools. They didn't quantify the difference this makes, but they seemed to imply that this made an even bigger difference than the swimsuits, hence we are seeing records broken by 4-5 seconds.

 

Now, Phelps is swimming in the same pool in the same suit as the other guys _right now_, and beating them, so yes, he is the best swimmer there is right now. But breaking world records with the above factors is probably somewhat expected during these olympics.

 

You're right. Swimming is a wierd sport like that because there CAN be technilogical advancements from year to year which steadily shave off times.

 

Also worth noting: I've watched at least five races this year where the gold, the silver, and sometimes even the bronze ALL beat world records.

 

To President Adams: the first time I wrote Olympiads I was wrong. The second time I was sarcastic.

[John Adams]

To President Adams: the first time I wrote Olympiads I was wrong. The second time I was sarcastic.

 

I didn't find this thread interesting enough to read all the posts, believe it or not. I thought maybe you were a good poster because of all the Peters' thread research. You're on probation.

[The Big Cat]

I didn't find this thread interesting enough to read all the posts, believe it or not. I thought maybe you were a good poster because of all the Peters' thread research. You're on probation.

 

 

<-- also sarcastic!

[ExiledInIllinois]

Phelps just had to swim two finals an hour apart; it takes a special, and incredibly well-conditioned, athlete to hold up over Phelps' workload. That's why you don't hear about a Spitz or Biondi or Phelps every four years. Comparing him to a shot putter, or any other athlete who can concentrate on a single event? I don't think it's applicable.

 

Now, if you'd like to argue in favor of decathletes -- the decathalon record-holder has long been known as the "World's Greatest Athlete" -- I wouldn't disagree.

 

Exactly! What I was going to say.

 

Now... What about the triathalon?... There all three are simulataneous.

[erynthered]

I just read this. Thought I'd throw here on this thread. Wow!

 

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08132008/news/...orge_124248.htm

 

 

Phelps lends a new spin to the phrase "Breakfast of Champions" by starting off his day by eating three fried-egg sandwiches loaded with cheese, lettuce, tomatoes, fried onions and mayonnaise.

 

He follows that up with two cups of coffee, a five-egg omelet, a bowl of grits, three slices of French toast topped with powdered sugar and three chocolate-chip pancakes.

 

At lunch, Phelps gobbles up a pound of enriched pasta and two large ham and cheese sandwiches slathered with mayo on white bread - capping off the meal by chugging about 1,000 calories worth of energy drinks.

 

For dinner, Phelps really loads up on the carbs - what he needs to give him plenty of energy for his five-hours-a-day, six-days-a-week regimen - with a pound of pasta and an entire pizza.

 

He washes all that down with another 1,000 calories worth of energy drinks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Max Fischer]

I think The Big Cat is one of the greatest internet poster of all-time -- though I suspect he posts on many internet sites -- his accomplishments on this site alone put him in the Pantheon of web-based debaters -- juggling a complex variety of topics and forums, arguing from both sides of the same issue, standing firm in the face of overwhelming evidence . . . simply outstanding!

 

But I don't mean to ignore the legendary careers of other prolific internet debaters, there are so many who deserve recognition.

[John Adams]

Exactly! What I was going to say.

 

Now... What about the triathalon?... There all three are simulataneous.

 

Since I'm being a grammar jerkoff in this thread, the 3 events aren't simultaneous. They are consecutive. Simultaneous would be a good trick though.

[George Washington]

I think The Big Cat is one of the greatest internet poster of all-time -- though I suspect he posts on many internet sites -- his accomplishments on this site alone put him in the Pantheon of web-based debaters -- juggling a complex variety of topics and forums, arguing from both sides of the same issue, standing firm in the face of overwhelming evidence . . . simply outstanding!

 

But I don't mean to ignore the legendary careers of other prolific internet debaters, there are so many who deserve recognition.

 

He's OK, but John Adams is king.

[Benjamin Franklin]

He's OK, but John Adams is king.

 

I second that.

[Observer]

I second that.

 

I third that. He's the man.

[ExiledInIllinois]

As long as the threat of Big Cat reproducing lingers, none of us is safe.

 

 

Just pray his mate is not on the pill!

 

Oh wait... That's not right.

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Since I'm being a grammar jerkoff in this thread, the 3 events aren't simultaneous. They are consecutive. Simultaneous would be a good trick though.

 

Oops!

 

 

Duh... Sorry.

 

That would be cool if they were!

[Nixon]

He's OK, but John Adams is king.

 

 

No he's not. He's a crook!!

[Wacka]

You have to devote years to being just an Olympic athlete. When I worked at Stanford, we had an undergrad in the lab that was a member of teh women's rowing team. They were ranked #10 in the nation. For that, she got up at 4 AM every day, rowed in the AM, went to class, did research in the lab , went to the weight room and studied. We asked her why doesn't she try out for the Olympic team. She said she would have to drop out and spend every waking moment for the next year to get a chance for trying out for the team.

 

Phelps is a rare talent. The guy got 6 golds and two bronze last Olympics, for pete's sake.

[The Big Cat]

You have to devote years to being just an Olympic athlete. When I worked at Stanford, we had an undergrad in the lab that was a member of teh women's rowing team. They were ranked #10 in the nation. For that, she got up at 4 AM every day, rowed in the AM, went to class, did research in the lab , went to the weight room and studied. We asked her why doesn't she try out for the Olympic team. She said she would have to drop out and spend every waking moment for the next year to get a chance for trying out for the team.

 

Phelps is a rare talent. The guy got 6 golds and two bronze last Olympics, for pete's sake.

 

You're right. Michael Phelps IS a world class athlete. My roommate went to high school with him (I'm completely, 100% not f'ing kidding)--the guy had no friends, and was socially awkward.

 

Small price to pay to be the greatest in your field, if you ask me. Hefty price to pay if you're not.

[HereComesTheReignAgain]

Phelps is unbelievable, and holds the majority of the world records in his events, but a world record from 2007 is dated in swimming at the moment.

 

It is supposedly a very fast pool, and the swimsuit (namely the Speedo TYR, I think its called) are making previous swimming records obsolete. There are races where the guy finishing in 5th place is breaking the previous world record.

 

That's not to take anything away from Phelps, because everyone is swimming faster and he's still the fastest. But, there are plenty of other variables other than just being a better swimmer than the previous world record holder.

 

 

I see what you are saying, but the same thing would apply in his golf reference. Club and ball technology improves constantly.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Since I'm being a grammar jerkoff in this thread, the 3 events aren't simultaneous. They are consecutive. Simultaneous would be a good trick though.

 

Wait a second... With regards to the whole event, it IS simultaneous or can be simultaneous at times... It isn't strange to see some participants still swimming while others have begun to bike... Or still on the bike while others have begun to run.

 

 

Ya... That is what I meant...

 

[The Big Cat]

I see what you are saying, but the same thing would apply in his golf reference. Club and ball technology improves constantly.

 

Yeah, and so do scores and driving distances?

 

The difference being pools evolve to the swimmers' benefit just as suits and goggles and nutrional plans do too. Whereas in golf, while clubs are easier to swing, balls are easier to manipulate, and distances become easier to gauge (laser sight tecnology), courses become longer, roughs become rougher, and greens slope more drastically.

[LongLiveRalph]

I see what you are saying, but the same thing would apply in his golf reference. Club and ball technology improves constantly.

 

No question...And in golf you're competing against others using the same technology, so the playing field is level. Just like in these Olympics, Phelps is beating his opponents in the same pool, all wearing the same "super" suit.

 

My only statement had to do with breaking world records...These guys are shattering world records set in 2005 by three seconds. That's not really fair to the previous world record holder, who likely swam in a shallow pool without a fusion swimsuit. When the 5th place finisher is breaking the world record, it tells you something about the other variables.

 

However, I see what you're saying...The previous record holder of score under par at Augusta didn't have Tiger's Nike driver or golf ball or DriFit shirt, and that's the way it goes.

[The Big Cat]

No question...And in golf you're competing against others using the same technology, so the playing field is level. Just like in these Olympics, Phelps is beating his opponents in the same pool, all wearing the same "super" suit.

 

My only statement had to do with breaking world records...These guys are shattering world records set in 2005 by three seconds. That's not really fair to the previous world record holder, who likely swam in a shallow pool without a fusion swimsuit. When the 5th place finisher is breaking the world record, it tells you something about the other variables.

 

However, I see what you're saying...The previous record holder of score under par at Augusta didn't have Tiger's Nike driver or golf ball or DriFit shirt, and that's the way it goes.

 

Whoa whoa, point of clarification- the only record being broken by an margin of 3 seconds was last nights 4x200 RELAY. a.) that's a longer event so breakage could be more substantial, and b.) that's compounded by the fact that it's a relay.

 

Individuals (esp in short races) aren't OBLITERATING records.