Do the Bills now have the worst defense in NFL?

[Acantha]

I thought it WAS on the side of BADOL's argument. I'm having a damned hard time figuring out who is arguing what, and with whom, on this thread. I understand now that BADOL says we should've signed Nate. I disagree, as do others. That is a football discussion. Yet, sadly, 75% of this thread consists of:

 

"It's only March 4, you have no right to post your opinion that the Bills have neglected their defense. We're DOOOOOMED HAHAHA."

 

"Shut up you unfunny Marv apologist."

The problem is that the only answer or discussion that can be given to most of the opinion on the board right now is "it's only March 4th". Yes, BADOL finally clearly stated that he thinks Nate should have been re-signed above the others. At least that was something I can disagree with. But the posts that say we are ignoring the defense and are screwed are just too premature. We have no idea what else is in store for the offseason!

 

And BADOL keeps making the point that he wants to discuss football, but then trashes anyone who says anything else. His "I'm at the game and you're not" speech was nice, but basically he is saying that when he decides to give his opinion, it's right and everyone else is a moron reveling in the scraps that the media decides to hand down to us. So what kind of football discussion can come from that?

And really, other than saying that I disagree with him and would have much rather spent the money on the OL than on a CB, what's left to discuss? Nobody has any idea how any of these guys (including Clements) will perform next year.

 

BADOL has said he wants to be here to discuss football, but has spent most of this thread bickering with people he could just as easily be ignoring. One of the people who gave a football related opinion, he called a jackass. So why is his opinion so much more important? Why is everyone here so hypocritical?

[Kelly the Dog]

Badol, I'll give you the Pat Williams angle but the Peerless one doesn't fly with me at all. The reason the offense tanked was that Moulds got hurt, and then there was no viable alternate, and it practically ruined Josh Reed's career when he was then supposed to be the go to guy. But I think that probably still would have happened had Peerless been the #1 instead of #2. Moulds never returned to his pre-injury form and the passing game hasn't recovered since.

[BB2004]

The Bills defense was very bad prior to the bye week changes. Now the key player in that change(Clements) is gone, and the steady, consistent, durable MLB is gone as well. I'm not a big fan of Fletcher, he can't stack and shed so his defenses will always be vulnerable to the run at his position, but he and Clements were the guys who came away with the turnovers. That's kinda' important.

 

There are really no solutions in FA. The draft........well let's just say we aren't going to replace that production next season from the draft. The next time that happens will be the first. And that is to get back to last year's level. Which wasn't good enough. Not to throw a wet blanket on the acquisition of a good guard and some JAGs but, how is this progress? Have the Bills gone from being one of the worst run defenses to being the worst defense?

 

 

I think as of right now we are in the lower third. We could move up to the middle if we draft defensive players with our first two picks. This changes obviously if McGahee gets traded. As we know Okoye has the most potential, Willis is the safest and as of now our biggest need and Lynch is the wildcard.

[Git'er Done]

I have to think that Whitner, Simpson and Ellison will be marginally if not significantly better. I am hoping that McCargo is a decent player with flashes of his first round potential. I am pretty confident that Crowell can take the place of Fletcher in the middle. I am hoping that Spikes can return to near form, or that we release him and use the 5 mil to sign a decent replacement. I would have to think that the second year in the defense will make the guys who were missing all kinds of lanes and assignments and angles will be able to cut down on the ridiculous amount of long runs and 10+ yard runs that we gave up.

 

That said, losing Nate will hurt a lot. McGee will have to step up. Kiwi will need to be resigned. Youboty will have to not be an embarrassment. We need some kind of veteran replacement for Nate. At least a serviceable DT acquisition like Ian Gold or the like could help a lot. Not make us good but close some of the floodgates.

 

One of the ways the defense can be better is the offense controlling the ball, and the offense being able to get a lead or two so the defense doesn't have to play on its heals and let other teams run all day on them, but rather be forced to pass a little more.

 

I also think that Fewell did pretty well with what he had to work with. Remember, we were middle of the pack in defense the second half, especially in scoring defense, and that was without Crowell, Spikes and McCargo, as well as having to teach the defense to the team and the NFL to Whitner and Simpson.

 

I think the defense will operate at about the same level, Aside from Nate, I don't think they will lose much without Fletcher (or is it Baker?) and the very average TKO.

 

But the offense?

I feel it is gonna be awesome. Like you said, a good offense can really help the defense stay fresh, very important with the Cover 2.

 

People like to panic.

[Sketch Soland]

I thought it WAS on the side of BADOL's argument. I'm having a damned hard time figuring out who is arguing what, and with whom, on this thread. I understand now that BADOL says we should've signed Nate. I disagree, as do others. That is a football discussion. Yet, sadly, 75% of this thread consists of:

 

"It's only March 4, you have no right to post your opinion that the Bills have neglected their defense. We're DOOOOOMED HAHAHA."

 

"Shut up you unfunny Marv apologist."

 

I love it when a contrary opinion is also equated as "you have no right to your opinion".

 

Let's take a look at the OP, shall we?

 

Title of Thread: Do the Bills now have the worst defense in the NFL?

 

Answer: Quite Possibly, if we played the game tomorrow. Fortunately, this is not the case. This question is intentionally inflammatory and is in itself a misleading way to frame the debate. There is no way to judge on March 4th if we have the worst defense in the NFL! There is just no way! You expect to engage in some kind of ritzy ditzy dialogue when the question under debate is completely without proper context. You pompously lecture me and others about "finding another forum" and busting up "teenage cliches" etc. etc. LMFAO when you yourself are guilty of focusing the debate upon a fallacy of a question.

 

The Bills defense was very bad prior to the bye week changes.

 

Fair enough. Some would say, other than the Pass D improvement after the bye week, that it was bad the whole year. But I understand your point and your opinion.

 

Now the key player in that change(Clements) is gone, and the steady, consistent, durable MLB is gone as well. I'm not a big fan of Fletcher, he can't stack and shed so his defenses will always be vulnerable to the run at his position, but he and Clements were the guys who came away with the turnovers. That's kinda' important.

 

I think most people will agree with this. Still waiting for the explanation of the original question of this thread.... How do you mean to show us through evidence or concrete method of analysis that the Bills NOW have the worst Defense in the NFL? Now as in "Today", not "next season"....

 

There are really no solutions in FA.

 

Okay. Your opinion. You make a rather large blanket assumption and generalization though. Perhaps you are privy to some super insider information, however, so this is not a matter of your opinion. How does "There are really no solutions in FA" explain and or offer evidence about how we NOW have the worst Defense in the NFL? What is your method of analysis that can offer evidence that will prove to me that on March 4th we now have the worst defense in the NFL?

 

 

The draft........well let's just say we aren't going to replace that production next season from the draft.

 

Oh really? I assume then you have a time machine. Once again, how do we NOW have the worst Defense in the NFL? You B word about my sarcastic response so I will take you to the absolute letter of your response. The title of this thread takes completely the wrong tack on approaching the issue that you want to discuss.

 

The next time that happens will be the first. And that is to get back to last year's level. Which wasn't good enough. Not to throw a wet blanket on the acquisition of a good guard and some JAGs but, how is this progress? Have the Bills gone from being one of the worst run defenses to being the worst defense?

 

How is this progress? You want there to be a fundamental judgment on the Bills progress from last season to next year's! season on March 4th of the offseason in between the years!

 

Can you now begin to understand how shortsighted your whole title and original post was? And you then deign to judge me because you and huff and puff about finding another forum and looking down your nose like an elitist superior schmuck?

 

Get your schit straight and watch your wording and I won't be so sarcastic next time. Until then, a thread like this one will provoke such responses from people who think like me because, speaking for myself, I am tired of threads like this one that say the sky is falling on March 4th when there is practically an infinite amount of things that can happen until next season and practically an infinite amount of things that can happen during the season that will then allow us to have a proper discussion of whether we have the worst defense in the NFL.

 

IMO

[RuntheDamnBall]

Absolutely. That's the cost of doing business, and he was the Bills best defensive player and the focal point of Fewell's hybrid cover 2. When the Bills inked Eric Moulds long term, his deal was worth on average about 10% of that seasons projected salary cap limit. Nate got $10M per with the cap at $109M.

Remind me, how did that work out for them?

[Koufax]

I need some help here. Ellison is frequently mentioned in various posts as a guy we can expect to be a contributing starter. I would agree that based on where he was drafted, he exceeeded expectations last year. Heck, I doubt anyone expected him to play much at all. I didn't see much much last year in his play that would convince me that he can be a starting quality LB on a team with playoff ambitions. Disagree? Why? What makes you think he can get it done?

 

I was not stating that Ellison should be the starter (not sure on that). I was stating that our expectation should be for our LB corps to be better next year: Ellison should be better in year 2 than year 1. Crowell should be better as he continues to mature and without the injury. Spikes will be better or will be replaced with someone better than the 2006 Spikes. Fletcher clearly was let go with the plans on bringing in a better player (whether moving around guys or just a straight 1 to 1 replacement).

 

So my expectation is that we will have better play at Linebacker in 2007 than in 2006, as well as at DT (McCargo and year 2 in the system for everybody else) and safety (a year of experience for the two rookies). DE seems to be a push with the same guys (maybe a little older), and CB will clearly be a downgrade of some sort unless an exceptional #12 pick surprises us. But I think the improvements at DT and LB and Safety will offset the penciled in downgrade from Nate to Youboty. And if we draft someone good #12 (not my first choice) and start Youboty with McGee at nickle, I think our DB rotation could actually be better than last year (even though none of the individuals will equal Nate).

 

One quick comment: The discussion thread is are we the worst defense now. Not about improved team or team to start camp. As that we can't count guys we don't have yet, but that sort of makes it a BS question that many of us have edited into "with the changes made so far, are we on track to have a better defense than last year".

[MDH]

It's tough to say whether this D is the worst in the league right now and, honestly, it is because it's just March. Until we know who will be filling out the vacant spots of Clements & Fletcher (and perhaps Spikes) I'd be hard pressed to say just how bad they are.

 

That being said, Bado is right that there is nobody who can step in and be upgrades this coming season over Clements and Fletcher. Nick Harper would be a nice addition, even though he's not young anymore but in terms of this one season, he'd be the best replacement for Nate. That is still a significant downgrade.

 

As for Fletcher, there's nobody on the market that would be an instant upgrade to him either, despite his deficiencies against the run. Sure, the draft could bring someone who will, eventually, be an upgrade at MLB but it's highly doubtful they'd outperform Fletch this season.

 

On another note, I keep seeing people mention how losing Nate is going to hurt out passing game and that is true. But what I've seen nobody mention is how losing Fletch is going to hurt it a ton too. The Bills two best defenders in coverage were Clements and Fletch (obviously, I'm speaking in relative terms here, Fletch can't cover as well as McGee, but for his position he does a much better job). Losing both is going to cripple the pass D and unless they can find somebody to instantly improve the middle against the run (either at DT or MLB, or both) the team isn't likely to be any better against the run either.

 

So what has happened this offseason? The Bills have yet to improve in any way on Defense and have gotten worse in several spots. Sure, it is early, but there is almost no chance of getting immediate improvement at MLB or CB. This D, at least in the short term, has taken huge steps backwards. The only hope is that Marv and Co. and have a stellar draft to fix the interior of the D so that the long term prospects are better.

[BADOLBILZ]

The problem is that the only answer or discussion that can be given to most of the opinion on the board right now is "it's only March 4th". Yes, BADOL finally clearly stated that he thinks Nate should have been re-signed above the others. At least that was something I can disagree with. But the posts that say we are ignoring the defense and are screwed are just too premature. We have no idea what else is in store for the offseason!

 

And BADOL keeps making the point that he wants to discuss football, but then trashes anyone who says anything else. His "I'm at the game and you're not" speech was nice, but basically he is saying that when he decides to give his opinion, it's right and everyone else is a moron reveling in the scraps that the media decides to hand down to us. So what kind of football discussion can come from that?

And really, other than saying that I disagree with him and would have much rather spent the money on the OL than on a CB, what's left to discuss? Nobody has any idea how any of these guys (including Clements) will perform next year.

 

BADOL has said he wants to be here to discuss football, but has spent most of this thread bickering with people he could just as easily be ignoring. One of the people who gave a football related opinion, he called a jackass. So why is his opinion so much more important? Why is everyone here so hypocritical?

 

We're not here for absolute, definitive answers Faustus. That's obvious. I mean really, who actually THINKS that? Anybody?

 

We're here to discuss, so the only answer that can be given is NOT "it's only March 4th". If that were the case, what exactly is the point of The Stadium Wall? You can get your news at TBD if you'd like. Here we project and discuss changes and deal in hypotheticals. Interjectiing with "we won't know the final score until the game is over" does not make for discussion. But it's fine, as long as it's not followed up with some condescending BS. Like I said a half dozen times, that doesn't work in live conversation.

 

Now, I see you are offended because I suggested that being at the game can give you insight into it. But that's how it works. How do the professionals do it? I've said it so many times, it's NOT rocket science. But my point in this case was that a) it helps, a lot to be at the games and see the actual dynamics in motion on gameday and a lot of people forget or deny that and b)there are a lot of people here who just want to be contrary to draw attention to themselves or make themselves look funny or make themselves feel good at the expense of others.

 

Now, they don't like to be called out by someone like me who has been around here for a long time like they have, but enough is enough. What are they gonna' do, "retta-fy" me. Give me a break. I can't respect that BS, I KNOW they wouldn't bring that to a live conversation, so why does it belong here? I usually just ignore most of the junk, but I've seen a few people get trashed to the point of embarrassment by douchebag behavior on this board over the past couple years and I really should have said something sooner just on principle. I expect it to have zero effect, but I felt I had to say something.

[BADOLBILZ]

Remind me, how did that work out for them?

 

Few free agents actually live up to their entire contract with commensurate play. I heard Jamie Dukes on NFL network say that Takeo Spikes was the best free agent signing of all-time, but so far the Bills have gotten 2 great seasons and 2 seasons of very little production at all from Spikes. On the whole, that's not good enough IMO. IMO, neither was Moulds. The point is that that is the cost of doing business. The Bills were much better off with those guys, and Moulds had a huge impact in 2002 when the team got Bledsoe, and Spikes had a huge impact in 2003 and 2004. I'd rather have had those guys and had a few moments of good football than not have wasted Ralph's money on them.

[BillsVet]

No matter how you slice it, the defense will be extremely young next season. There is very little veteran presence that can make up for rookie mistakes. Even the safeties are 2nd yr guys. While they may have gotten away last season with playing their safeties deep, it's not going to happen this year unless McGee and whomever plays the other CB start demonstrating they're tough in pass defense. A good QB can breakdown our version of the Cover 2 with accurate passes.

 

There are too many questions on this defense. Yes, it is very early. This defense will get younger because in all probability, we're going to start more rookies at some point. That, or they'll get significant PT. And no one should anticipate an instant impact high draft pick. The draft is the future, not the present. Now, I'm certain someone will mention Whitner, but in all fairness, his contributions did not constitute a huge impact. Holding your ground is not instant impact.

 

The defense will see its share of bad plays. But, this team is continuing to rebuild, and we're probably in Year 2 of a longer plan.

[Pyrite Gal]

It's tough to say whether this D is the worst in the league right now and, honestly, it is because it's just March. Until we know who will be filling out the vacant spots of Clements & Fletcher (and perhaps Spikes) I'd be hard pressed to say just how bad they are.

 

That being said, Bado is right that there is nobody who can step in and be upgrades this coming season over Clements and Fletcher. Nick Harper would be a nice addition, even though he's not young anymore but in terms of this one season, he'd be the best replacement for Nate. That is still a significant downgrade.

 

As for Fletcher, there's nobody on the market that would be an instant upgrade to him either, despite his deficiencies against the run. Sure, the draft could bring someone who will, eventually, be an upgrade at MLB but it's highly doubtful they'd outperform Fletch this season.

 

On another note, I keep seeing people mention how losing Nate is going to hurt out passing game and that is true. But what I've seen nobody mention is how losing Fletch is going to hurt it a ton too. The Bills two best defenders in coverage were Clements and Fletch (obviously, I'm speaking in relative terms here, Fletch can't cover as well as McGee, but for his position he does a much better job). Losing both is going to cripple the pass D and unless they can find somebody to instantly improve the middle against the run (either at DT or MLB, or both) the team isn't likely to be any better against the run either.

 

So what has happened this offseason? The Bills have yet to improve in any way on Defense and have gotten worse in several spots. Sure, it is early, but there is almost no chance of getting immediate improvement at MLB or CB. This D, at least in the short term, has taken huge steps backwards. The only hope is that Marv and Co. and have a stellar draft to fix the interior of the D so that the long term prospects are better.

 

I think a football discussion is advanced by the perspecg\tive you provide here and by Badol's comments up above that purport that Fletcher was the centerpeice of the Jauron/Fewell hybrid Cover 2. I think you correctly observe that it actually will be Fletcher whom it will be more difficult to replace in making our D work and this can be seen in the objective D stats produced in 06 by our D as well as lookinh at whom we have on our roster and who can be acquired frm FAs and the draft at the MLB and CB positions.

 

I am quite curious to understand why Badol would say that Clements was central to our D's performance last year. If numbers of tackles credted to a player (particully unassisted tackles) are a central indicator of D performance and INTS are an indicator of pass protection performance then I think there is no question that F-B was far more central to the Bills D work last year than Fletcher.

 

Not only was Fletcher more involved n the central accomplishment of easily leading this team i tackles as he was called upon to be a key in our run stopping efforts (as an LB should and as an Mlb he had heavy responisibility on plays to either side while Clements had primary responsibity on plays to his side of the field, but Fletch actually had more INTs for the Bills than "playmaker " Clements.

 

In replacing these two players, the Bills MLB must play like a safety on pass plays and play like a DT on run plays and have enough NFL eperience (this is why it is likely to be painful for us for quite a while if we choose to rely on a rookie to start for us at MLB) to diagnose plays quickly and not be fooled by an opposing OC trying to fool him, On the other hand, our CBis actually required to do press coverage and let WRs go after 10-15 yards. Doing good press coverage in the NFL ain't easy, but actualy it is gonna be easier to find an FA like Harper or even Kiwaukee Thomas to do a lesser but still likely adequate job of filling in for NC than the diverse difficult role called for of Fletch last year.

 

Clements is a very good player whom I think will likely once again deserve a Pro Bowl berth assuming the 49ers play a D which utilizes his skills fully (which the Bills Cover 2 does not and I can see why the Bills agreed not to franchise him this year because he simply is not worth the franchiise cap hit of the average of the top 5 CB salaries to a Cover 2 team).

 

 

NC is a very good player and it was a good move to let him go if we are running the Cover 2

[Kelly the Dog]

It's also a risky scheme to play. Most of the guys were playing it for the first time. And a HUGE problem last year wasn't as much a lack of talent but guys just not doing their jobs right and taking bad angles and being out of position. When other guys did their jobs and one player was responsible for being in the hole and making the tackle but was two yards away or a half second late to the spot, the RB broke free into the secondary and it was 20 yards before anyone was near him. Hopefully, just that alone, experience and coaching, will help out the run defense. Also, signing a decent veteran FA run-stuffer DT and then drafting Okoye or Branch if available (I think it's probably 50-50 one of them will) would help dramatically.

[Dawgg]

We're splitting hairs here... let's say for argument case that Fletch is the "3rd" best player on the unit... it will still hurt the defense badly when he's not around.

 

Couple that with the pending loss of Spikes (say what you want about his play but he was defintiely one of the team leaders), it will be a very challenging season for the Bills' defense. They made a conscious decision this year, to improve the offensive line at the expense of the defense, when in fact, they could have done better than throw $25M at Langston Walker.

 

Let's see how it works out, but as you can tell, I don't like the decision.

 

Do you really think that Fletcher is a better playmaker than a 14 sack guy like Schoebel?

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

We're here to discuss, so the only answer that can be given is NOT "it's only March 4th". If that were the case, what exactly is the point of The Stadium Wall? You can get your news at TBD if you'd like. Here we project and discuss changes and deal in hypotheticals. Interjectiing with "we won't know the final score until the game is over" does not make for discussion. But it's fine, as long as it's not followed up with some condescending BS. Like I said a half dozen times, that doesn't work in live conversation.

Why can't TSW be about getting information on potential draftees, potential free agents, discussing which players we should go after through either of these avenues, what we should do with any situation that arises (McGahee), what players are out there that fit into our schemes, discussing where our young players are in their progression, the impact of recently acquired players, and on and on and on.

 

What, exactly, makes debating whether or not our defense is the worst in the league, 6 months before the season starts, a higher calling? There are plenty of worthwhile ways to use TSW other than arguing that we should have re-signed Nate Clements, and that people who go to the games know best.

[BADOLBILZ]

Badol, I'll give you the Pat Williams angle but the Peerless one doesn't fly with me at all. The reason the offense tanked was that Moulds got hurt, and then there was no viable alternate, and it practically ruined Josh Reed's career when he was then supposed to be the go to guy. But I think that probably still would have happened had Peerless been the #1 instead of #2. Moulds never returned to his pre-injury form and the passing game hasn't recovered since.

 

It's debatable, but the offense was already stifled well before Moulds got hurt. Things fell apart in Miami, where the Fish figured out that Moulds was the only dangerous option in the passing game and that Bledsoe no longer had an outlet receiving option of any worth. Miami with it's man corners were particularly vulnerable to the Bills deep passing attack in recent meetings. Reed's downward spiral actually began in the opener at Jacksonville when he dropped that easy 80 yard TD.

[Acantha]

Now, I see you are offended because I suggested that being at the game can give you insight into it. But that's how it works. How do the professionals do it? I've said it so many times, it's NOT rocket science. But my point in this case was that a) it helps, a lot to be at the games and see the actual dynamics in motion on gameday and a lot of people forget or deny that and

For starters, I wasn't taking offense, I was responding to the way you said it. Before I moved out of the country 3 years ago I had season tickets and yes, I agree that there are things you see at the game that can't be seen on TV. What I don't agree with is using that make sure everyone knows you are right and they are wrong. You say I can get my info on TBD and then leave. Well, if you don't think you can get reasonable discussion from people who only see things on TV, then TSW is also not the place to go.

 

b)there are a lot of people here who just want to be contrary to draw attention to themselves or make themselves look funny or make themselves feel good at the expense of others.

Now, they don't like to be called out by someone like me who has been around here for a long time like they have, but enough is enough. What are they gonna' do, "retta-fy" me. Give me a break. I can't respect that BS, I KNOW they wouldn't bring that to a live conversation, so why does it belong here? I usually just ignore most of the junk, but I've seen a few people get trashed to the point of embarrassment by douchebag behavior on this board over the past couple years and I really should have said something sooner just on principle. I expect it to have zero effect, but I felt I had to say something.

I agree 100% with what you say about people who act like this. On the other hand, what I do not understand is why these people have any affect on the posters of this board. Why respond to someone like AD who is obviously doing nothing but trying to cause trouble? Why not just blow it off? The only reason I'm responding so much to this thread is because you, unlike the others you've called out, at least have a history of offering football discussion, but since Marv and Jauron were hired you have done nothing but bad mouth every single move. You have become what you say you hate. If you want to discuss football, discuss it. But from the title of this thread to the berating nature of you responses (and not just to the doomed crowd) is the exact definition if douchebag behavior.

 

So anyway, I've had more than my say. I'll respond with a more football related focus after this.

[Acantha]

The draft........well let's just say we aren't going to replace that production next season from the draft. The next time that happens will be the first. And that is to get back to last year's level. Which wasn't good enough.

Why in your opinion can't the Bills replace last season's production through the draft? Is the level of talent that this year's draft has, or is it the fact that rookies can't match what players with experience can put forth?

[BADOLBILZ]

Why can't TSW be about getting information on potential draftees, potential free agents, discussing which players we should go after through either of these avenues, what we should do with any situation that arises (McGahee), what players are out there that fit into our schemes, discussing where our young players are in their progression, the impact of recently acquired players, and on and on and on.

 

What, exactly, makes debating whether or not our defense is the worst in the league, 6 months before the season starts, a higher calling? There are plenty of worthwhile ways to use TSW other than arguing that we should have re-signed Nate Clements, and that people who go to the games know best.

 

If you want information from paid professionals about potential draftees and free agents, TBD works pretty well. If you want to discuss Bills football, this should be where. What you are asking for is not to discuss negative topics, which you can accomplish by NOT responding to them or reading them.

[BADOLBILZ]

Why in your opinion can't the Bills replace last season's production through the draft? Is the level of talent that this year's draft has, or is it the fact that rookies can't match what players with experience can put forth?

 

When was the last time the Bills drafted two players who played as well as Fletcher and Clements did last year in their rookie year? I can't give you examples because it has NEVER happened in Bills history. Never.