Marv and the too many DBs theory

[folz]

We have a GM who professes to know nothing about the salary cap and has a propensity toward drafting defensive backs. Check out his years as head coach and look at just how many were taken early. Last season, he simply went to hell with himself and devoted almost all of our early picks to the secondary, giving away a precious first day pick while doing so.

 

I've heard quite a few people on this board mention Marv's propensity for drafting defensive backs early as a way to deride his GM capabilities, so

(memory not serving) I went to look it up:

 

In the 10 drafts that occured while Marv was coach, the Bills had 8-1st round choices, 12-2nd round picks, and 12-3rd round picks

 

Of the 8 1st round picks the Bills selected 3 DBs (Henry Jones '91, Thomas Smith '93, Jeff Burris '94)

Of the 12 2nd round picks the Bills selected 2 DBs (Nate Odomes '87, Roland Mitchell '87)

Of the 12 3rd round picks the Bills selected 3 DBs (Darryl Wren '91, Marlon Kerner '95, Matt Stevens '96)

 

Total: 8 of 32 picks on DBs in rounds 1-3 (or 25% of our picks for a position that is 18-22% of our starting line-up--18% for 4 starters, 22% if you counted nickel spot)

 

So, I guess I can see where people with this perspective are coming from, but football being what it is you have to take a lot of factors into account such as we

selected very low in the draft order from 1991-1995, the 3 DBs we selected in the first round were taken 26th, 28th, and 27th overall. Most of the star players

were off the board...and maybe DB was a safer pick at that spot...another reason was we had lost Nate Odomes after the '93 season and had to replace him

(ergo the Smith and Burris picks), etc. etc.--Not to mention that 3 of those first 5 day-one selections worked out pretty well for the Bills.

 

I also think that some people have Donahoe hangover...we just couldn't believe that he wouldn't address the lines in the draft, so when Marv didn't use any high

picks on the lines in his first draft people wanted to jump all over Marv (he did pick 5 linesmen though) and so those people went back to Marv's past to point out

how many DBs he's selected (as if by himself and apparently just because he likes DBs). But how many of you (looking back now) think we would have been ok with

Vincent and Milloy at safety all year last year (and in the new scheme). And even if they did ok last year, they both would have needed to be replaced this year due

to age and we would have had to draft DBs this year instead of last. And of course Youbouty was picked up in case Nate walked this year, we don't know what we

have there yet, but you can't say DB wasn't a need position...

 

BUT WHAT I FOUND MORE INTERESTING as I was looking back was this:

 

Bills draft 1987 (Marv's 1st--not in draft order) 2 DBs, 2 DTs, 1 OL, 2 LBs, 2 RBs TE, DE

Bills draft 2006 (Marv's 1st as GM-- " " " " ) 3 DBs, 2 DTs, 3 OL, 1 LB (only 9 picks in 2006 instead of 11 in '87)

 

Maybe he's following a plan that was successful for him in the past...not that this team and the team of '87-'88 have the same needs, but in 1988

without a 1st round pick, the Bills chose a hall of fame RB in the 2nd and a WR in the 3rd (in the '88 and '89 draft no DB was selected higher than

the 5th round)...looking at this, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see us pick up a RB in the 2nd or 3rd round this year (if Marv stays true to his old form)

and I also wouldn't be so quick in pigeon-holing Marv's drafts even if we have to pick up another corner this year to hopefully fill the hole Nate will leave.

 

 

Final note (in a long post, sorry): Get over the fact that Marv doesn't spend all his time thinking about the cap. He was hired for the following reasons:

To bring a high-character, blue-collar, family atmosphere back to the Bills after Ol' Whitey took that away from us and the players; to be democratic

not autocratic; to keep Ralph informed in what's going on; and to find the right players to try to build a championship team, as he has done before

(albeit AFC champs not Superbowl). And he's not running things on his own, he has Modrak (a former GM, which I think some people forget), and

Overdorf and his team to deal with cap, contracts and the like. Modrak could be a GM elsewhere, do you think Marv "Mr. Consensus" Levy doesn't

listen to him or take his advice? Do you think Overdorf isn't right there as they make decisions telling Marv what consequences a move will have on

the cap? Come on.....let's see what this off-season brings before we run Marv out of town for not knowing all the cap figures or for picking too many DBs...

 

Go get 'em Marv.

[Captain Hindsight]

Great post and thanks for the info

[Git'er Done]

Like you said, the Bills were selecting at the bottom of the round during Marv's tenure, and in those days DB's were the best value in those spots. Thanks for this posting, this whole "controversy" has been way overblown.

[Dan]

You... should definitely post more. Excellent information!

[Bill from NYC]

and I also wouldn't be so quick in pigeon-holing Marv's drafts even if we have to pick up another corner this year to hopefully fill the hole Nate will leave.

 

Final note (in a long post, sorry): Get over the fact that Marv doesn't spend all his time thinking about the cap. He was hired for the following reasons:

To bring a high-character, blue-collar, family atmosphere back to the Bills after Ol' Whitey took that away from us and the players; to be democratic

not autocratic; to keep Ralph informed in what's going on; and to find the right players to try to build a championship team, as he has done before

(albeit AFC champs not Superbowl). And he's not running things on his own, he has Modrak (a former GM, which I think some people forget), and

Overdorf and his team to deal with cap, contracts and the like. Modrak could be a GM elsewhere, do you think Marv "Mr. Consensus" Levy doesn't

listen to him or take his advice? Do you think Overdorf isn't right there as they make decisions telling Marv what consequences a move will have on

the cap? Come on.....let's see what this off-season brings before we run Marv out of town for not knowing all the cap figures or for picking too many DBs...

 

Go get 'em Marv.

 

Wow. You paint quite a loving portrait of Marv, which makes sense. After all, this IS a Bills board. It is perhaps fitting that you would give him a pass if he goes back to the proverbial first round defensive back well in April no matter who he passes up to go there, and tossing aside the fact that he brough in DBs with 3 of his first 4 picks in 06, let alone 2 UFAs. Was Youboty not selected to protect us against losing Nate, or was drafting him more of an afterthought?

 

Turn back the clock to last April if you will. Before he held out in camp, Whitner himself expressed surprise at being taken at the 8th slot. There were opportunities galore to trade down (according to Marv himself on Sirius), but getting Whitner ruled the day. Maybe it was his "character" that Marv was after. Wait.....maybe not, whereas he WAS arrested for kicking the schit out of his baby momma, wasn't he? Never mind....the charges were dropped, so I guess he was innocent.

 

Anyway, back to Marv......he certainly seems to be a nice man. That said, he has been out of the game for a long time and said to have been trying to get back in. Do you find it odd or coincidental that there were no offers, despite his credentials?

Look, I LIKE what he did wrt cutting Milloy and Adams. Losing Vincent was probably a blessing in disguise as well. He also seemed to have a very good 2nd day in the 06 draft, but the core of this team consists primarily of JP, Schobel, Evans, and Jason Peters imo, and 3 of these guys will not be as effective as they can be unless there is a dramatic improvement on the OL. This is not up for dispute. Please name me a superbowl team that allocated the bulk of it's resources to the secondary. It can't happen, because it is senseless. Worse yet is watching them walk away as UFAs and starting anew.

To his credit, Marv recently stated that the OL is in dire need of help. They way to get it is NOT to pick the trash bins of losing teams, because you wind up with players such as Reyes, Gandy and Anderson to name a few.

 

Here is a football team that since 2001, has chased after early defensive backs. They will be drafting 1st in 2 months. I would think a little about this before giving Marv a free pass, but that's just me.

[obie_wan]

Wow. You paint quite a loving portrait of Marv, which makes sense. After all, this IS a Bills board. It is perhaps fitting that you would give him a pass if he goes back to the proverbial first round defensive back well in April no matter who he passes up to go there, and tossing aside the fact that he brough in DBs with 3 of his first 4 picks in 06, let alone 2 UFAs. Was Youboty not selected to protect us against losing Nate, or was drafting him more of an afterthought?

 

Turn back the clock to last April if you will. Before he held out in camp, Whitner himself expressed surprise at being taken at the 8th slot. There were opportunities galore to trade down (according to Marv himself on Sirius), but getting Whitner ruled the day. Maybe it was his "character" that Marv was after. Wait.....maybe not, whereas he WAS arrested for kicking the schit out of his baby momma, wasn't he? Never mind....the charges were dropped, so I guess he was innocent.

 

Anyway, back to Marv......he certainly seems to be a nice man. That said, he has been out of the game for a long time and said to have been trying to get back in. Do you find it odd or coincidental that there were no offers, despite his credentials?

Look, I LIKE what he did wrt cutting Milloy and Adams. Losing Vincent was probably a blessing in disguise as well. He also seemed to have a very good 2nd day in the 06 draft, but the core of this team consists primarily of JP, Schobel, Evans, and Jason Peters imo, and 3 of these guys will not be as effective as they can be unless there is a dramatic improvement on the OL. This is not up for dispute. Please name me a superbowl team that allocated the bulk of it's resources to the secondary. It can't happen, because it is senseless. Worse yet is watching them walk away as UFAs and starting anew.

To his credit, Marv recently stated that the OL is in dire need of help. They way to get it is NOT to pick the trash bins of losing teams, because you wind up with players such as Reyes, Gandy and Anderson to name a few.

 

Here is a football team that since 2001, has chased after early defensive backs. They will be drafting 1st in 2 months. I would think a little about this before giving Marv a free pass, but that's just me.

 

 

Bills should take the best player available,

 

just not a MLB because we all know that rookies are too dumb to start and be effective

[Nanker]

Here is a football team that since 2001, has chased after early defensive backs. They will be drafting 1st in 2 months. I would think a little about this before giving Marv a free pass, but that's just me.

 

Face it Bill, it really started in 2000 when they drafted Janakowski.

That's where TD screwed up BigTime - he drafted Roscoe Parrish, and didn't draft Nugent!

[Pyrite Gal]

Please name me a superbowl team that allocated the bulk of it's resources to the secondary. It can't happen, because it is senseless.

 

The answer to your question could well be two teams, Definitely in Marv's first go round as HC with the Bills he drafted a lot of DBs early and this team went to the SB an unprecedented four times in a row.

 

The second team, but as Marv has had but one year directing its draft is the Bills team he started with in 2006. Certainly no SB yet (not even the playoffs yet) but can anyone legitimately fault them for that after merely 1 season coming of a 5-11 year.

 

Particularly given that the 06 draft played a large role as reflected in the PT and starts of the drafted players in the real improvements of this team to 7-9 against opponents which also produced (5 of the top 6 AFC seeds and the top NFC seed to boot), it is clear based on improved W/L vs. high achieving opponents that this team is simply so far so good in trying to replicate the great achievements of this pas DB draft heavy SB team.

 

On the face of it, you make the point to keep the faith as the results are simply the results.

[YOOOOOO]

Please name me a superbowl team that allocated the bulk of it's resources to the secondary.

 

 

The Bills???

[C.Biscuit97]

Wow. You paint quite a loving portrait of Marv, which makes sense. After all, this IS a Bills board. It is perhaps fitting that you would give him a pass if he goes back to the proverbial first round defensive back well in April no matter who he passes up to go there, and tossing aside the fact that he brough in DBs with 3 of his first 4 picks in 06, let alone 2 UFAs. Was Youboty not selected to protect us against losing Nate, or was drafting him more of an afterthought?

 

Turn back the clock to last April if you will. Before he held out in camp, Whitner himself expressed surprise at being taken at the 8th slot. There were opportunities galore to trade down (according to Marv himself on Sirius), but getting Whitner ruled the day. Maybe it was his "character" that Marv was after. Wait.....maybe not, whereas he WAS arrested for kicking the schit out of his baby momma, wasn't he? Never mind....the charges were dropped, so I guess he was innocent.

 

Anyway, back to Marv......he certainly seems to be a nice man. That said, he has been out of the game for a long time and said to have been trying to get back in. Do you find it odd or coincidental that there were no offers, despite his credentials?

Look, I LIKE what he did wrt cutting Milloy and Adams. Losing Vincent was probably a blessing in disguise as well. He also seemed to have a very good 2nd day in the 06 draft, but the core of this team consists primarily of JP, Schobel, Evans, and Jason Peters imo, and 3 of these guys will not be as effective as they can be unless there is a dramatic improvement on the OL. This is not up for dispute. Please name me a superbowl team that allocated the bulk of it's resources to the secondary. It can't happen, because it is senseless. Worse yet is watching them walk away as UFAs and starting anew.

To his credit, Marv recently stated that the OL is in dire need of help. They way to get it is NOT to pick the trash bins of losing teams, because you wind up with players such as Reyes, Gandy and Anderson to name a few.

 

Here is a football team that since 2001, has chased after early defensive backs. They will be drafting 1st in 2 months. I would think a little about this before giving Marv a free pass, but that's just me.

 

Hey Bill, you forgot to mention a couple of other players the Raiders drafted during that time:

2002 - T Langston Walker, 2nd round (53 overall)

2004 - T Robert Gallery, 1st round (2)

2004 - C Jake Grove, 2nd round (45)

2006 - G Paul McQuistan, 3rd round (69)

 

They also selected two 2nd round TEs during this period as well. Just thought I'd refresh your memory.

[C.Biscuit97]

Please name me a superbowl team that allocated the bulk of it's resources to the secondary.

 

 

Ummm, Indianapolis???

 

2001 - FS Bashir, 2nd round (37 overall)

2001 - SS Bird, 3rd round (91)

2002 - SS Jefferson, 3rd round (74)

2003 - SS Doss, 2nd round (58)

2003 - CB Strickland, 3rd round (90)

2004 - SS Sanders, 2nd round (44)

2005 - CB Jackson, 1st round (29)

2005 - CB Hayden, 2nd round (60)

2006 - CB Jennings, 2nd round (62)

 

They also drafted 2 more dbs in the 4th round, 1 in the 5th, 4 in the 6th, and 1 in the 7th. I'm just saying.

[stuckincincy]

Ummm, Indianapolis???

 

2001 - FS Bashir, 2nd round (37 overall)

2001 - SS Bird, 3rd round (91)

2002 - SS Jefferson, 3rd round (74)

2003 - SS Doss, 2nd round (58)

2003 - CB Strickland, 3rd round (90)

2004 - SS Sanders, 2nd round (44)

2005 - CB Jackson, 1st round (29)

2005 - CB Hayden, 2nd round (60)

2006 - CB Jennings, 2nd round (62)

 

They also drafted 2 more dbs in the 4th round, 1 in the 5th, 4 in the 6th, and 1 in the 7th. I'm just saying.

 

Well, that is a nice list. But having an offensive powerhouse - the Colts were 66 - 30 in the regular season over that span - allows for certain luxuries...

[Chilly]

Folz, excellent post. Even if people dont' agree with all of it, it was well thought out. I concur that you should post here more!

[folz]

Wow. You paint quite a loving portrait of Marv, which makes sense. After all, this IS a Bills board. It is perhaps fitting that you would give him a pass if he goes back to the proverbial first round defensive back well in April no matter who he passes up to go there, and tossing aside the fact that he brough in DBs with 3 of his first 4 picks in 06, let alone 2 UFAs. Was Youboty not selected to protect us against losing Nate, or was drafting him more of an afterthought?

 

Yes, Youboty was selected to hopefully fill Nate's spot. I don't think it was an afterthought, but once they got to the third round maybe he was the best player on their board and knowing they'd probably lose Nate next year they made the pick as protection. But we all know not every pick hits, or some guys take longer to develop. I'm just saying if they pick another CB it is because they think they need to fill that position (no confidence in Youboty or he needs more time to develop) rather than some penchant Marv has for drafting CBs. I don't think they'd pass up a better player at a need position just to stack the roster with CBs.

 

And Marv gets a pass because he proved to me a long time ago that he knows the game of football and even though GM is a different job I haven't seen anything yet to make me think he's lost it or the game has passed him by. Good draft (even if some think he should have addressed other positions than they did), brought in a coach who can be trusted and who has experience (how good a coach he is of course could be debated, but...), improved record in the first year (even if only by 2 games), and a community spirit being rebuilt amongst the team and fans (I do think this is important to the team and it definitely is to me as a fan--that's why I'm a Bills fan). But, if Marv starts making idiotic moves and ruining the team, I'll be the first one to say we should move on and find a new GM. But, for now, yes he gets a pass from me.

 

getting Whitner ruled the day. Maybe it was his "character" that Marv was after. Wait.....maybe not, whereas he WAS arrested for kicking the schit out of his baby momma, wasn't he? Never mind....the charges were dropped, so I guess he was innocent.

 

That's another point where I think people misinterpret what Marv means when he says "character." While I don't think he wants any players who are drug addicts or convicts, I think he is talking about: Do they love the game, do they play hard on every down, do they work hard in practice and the off-season, do they always want to improve, are they a team player (putting team success above individual accolades), etc.

 

 

the core of this team consists primarily of JP, Schobel, Evans, and Jason Peters imo, and 3 of these guys will not be as effective as they can be unless there is a dramatic improvement on the OL.

 

Again all my original post was saying was let's see what this off season brings first. If he doesn't address the lines at all, I'll agree with you that it was a mistake...but let's see what happens before we assume he's going to pick 3 DBs again and forget about every other position on the field.

 

To his credit, Marv recently stated that the OL is in dire need of help. They way to get it is NOT to pick the trash bins of losing teams, because you wind up with players such as Reyes, Gandy and Anderson to name a few.

 

Another reason why Marv gets the benefit of the doubt from me right now (especially if people are bringing up his draft history) during the Superbowl years, five out of seven starting linemen were drafted (3 by Levy/Polian--2 before they came), Kent Hull came with Marv and Jim from the USFL, and John Davis came via free agency. They didn't draft a lot of OL, but then, they didn't need too, that line held together for quite a few years. In Marv's first draft as GM he selected 3 OL players (granted they weren't high picks, but then he and Polian found House Ballard in the 11th round).

 

And again I think it's Donahoe hangover as far as picking up other teams's OL trash...although Marv did bring in Reyes (who hasn't worked out) and Fowler (who played decent) last year, he also admitted this year that they still need to address the line further. That line was such a mess before last year that he had to try something...he wasn't going to be able to draft 3 or 4 rookie OL players and start them and have them become an above average line so sure he picked up some FAs. But, if he didn't pick up any FAs you'd complain he didn't address the line. The key will be can Levy help to find better linemen (either in the draft or FA) than Donahoe could. I hope the answer to that will be yes. (and Anderson and Gandy were Donahoe guys--hangover?).

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

Bills should take the best player available,

 

just not a MLB because we all know that rookies are too dumb to start and be effective

That is correct, we do know that, because some of us realize that our middle linebacker is called on to do more than run forward and tackle.

[Bill from NYC]

And again I think it's Donahoe hangover as far as picking up other teams's OL trash...although Marv did bring in Reyes (who hasn't worked out) and Fowler (who played decent) last year, he also admitted this year that they still need to address the line further. That line was such a mess before last year that he had to try something...he wasn't going to be able to draft 3 or 4 rookie OL players and start them and have them become an above average line so sure he picked up some FAs. But, if he didn't pick up any FAs you'd complain he didn't address the line. The key will be can Levy help to find better linemen (either in the draft or FA) than Donahoe could. I hope the answer to that will be yes. (and Anderson and Gandy were Donahoe guys--hangover?).

 

First, allow me to join the others who urge you to post more. Good dialogue is what counts, not seeing eye to eye on every issue.

 

One thing about TD if I may,,,,,,TD DID try to address the OL. He simply failed, and miserably. He brought in Teague (who wasn't cheap, but sucked) and Villarial (who was only good for about 3/4 of one season).

Jonas Jennings was a great pick in round 3, and as we know, TD even used a #4 on MW, even if he WAS a flat slob and a RT.

 

The prior regime was worse yet, offering us scrubs such as Hulsey, Ostroski, Carman, Nails, Loucheiy, Spriggs, Rockwood, an all but crippled Panos, a used up Fina, and a host of other lousy players up front.

 

My point is that for more than a decade, the "blue collar," cold weather franchise that we both love has fielded an OL of weak sisters, and I think that we both agree on this. Marv came to town and hit the ground running in terms of grabbing defensive backs as if it was judgement day. Where you and I seem to differ is to whether or not this is (was) the correct way to build a team that struggles up front.

 

The good news is that Marv seems to see the above, and addressed the OL in his press conference. Does he deserve a chance to address this weakness? He certainly does, and I truly hope that he is serious. It shouldn't be so hard, because he lucked into a Left Tackle who imo has a shot at being actually great.

Put some solid guards on the Bills and give them some help vs. the run, and imo we have a football team that will march into the playoffs in 07.

[folz]

My point is that for more than a decade, the "blue collar," cold weather franchise that we both love has fielded an OL of weak sisters, and I think that we both agree on this.

 

Agreed!

 

Marv came to town and hit the ground running in terms of grabbing defensive backs as if it was judgement day. Where you and I seem to differ is to whether or not this is (was) the correct way to build a team that struggles up front.

 

There are so many ways to go in rebuilding a team and I'm sure fixing the OL first is a solid way to go, but I think fixing the Defense first can also work--just can't get it all done in one or maybe even two years. This is where I give Levy/Jauron the benefit of the doubt for now; that they have a plan that will sooner (hopefully) rather than later address all weaknesses on the team.