Tortured Soul Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Which doesn't change the fact that defenses are far more intricate today and QB development takes longer than it did then. 816639[/snapback] But haven't college defenses kept pace (relatively speaking)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 My point is that Bradshaw is an exception rather than the rule, and it doesn't make sense to compare Losman to anyone who played 30 years ago. 816486[/snapback] It might not be wise to compare Bradshaw to any qb in any era, let alone JP, who is protected by garbage and surrounded by players who are marginal. Probably only a few here remember this (chime in AD, please ), but Pitt fans initially hated Bradshaw, and local papers took polls on whether or not he should be benched. The knock on him was that he was "dumb." His competition was journeyman Terry Hanratty, and a player named Joe Gilliam, who believe it or not, had more talent than Bradshaw. Joe Gilliam was African-American; a problem in those days. Shameful but true. He had a great arm and mobility. Seriously, picture JP x 2, and that was the talent level of this kid. As I recall, his problem was drugs, and his career was sadly uneventful. Bradshaw played on perhaps the greatest team ever. They had literal stars on almost every defensive position, and were almost impossible to score on. Their DTs were Joe Greene (yes R.Rich, the best ever ) and "Arrowhead" Holmes. Running against them was impossible, and LC Greenwood and Dwight White provided outside pass rush. Their LBs were in the top 5 lb units (imo) ever, and the secondary, led by Mel Blount, was as good as it gets. Ya think Bradshaw got good field position? On offense, Bradshaw had every imaginable weapon in terms of wideouts, and Franco Harris at RB. He played behind an OL which was chock full of superstars, and they had Rocky Blier to help block. They even had 2 very good TEs (Grossman and Cunningham). My point is, it is very hard to compare Bradshaw to any other quarterback, because none of the others ever had this kind of a supporting cast. What Bradshaw DID prove was that he was a clutch player, and a tough guy with the heart of a lion. Does JP have all of this? I have no idea. Put a young Terry Bradshaw on the Bills in 06, and he wouldn't last the season. He had a tendency to run head on into linebackers, or anybody else. The NFL has changed, but the basics remain the same. Unless these OL changes work, expecting JP to avoid injury this season is rather naive. The sad truth is that the people who want him benched need only to remain patient. The Bills (or perhaps RW specifically) have chosen to sell seats, and profit on a short term basis. People will cheer when Evans breaks a long one, or when Little Roscoe scores one of his very few TDs. This (in the short term) sells more tickets than having Jonathan Ogden, or other good blockers on the team. Imo, this is his major concern. Sad, but true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortured Soul Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Bill (and anyone else who wants to chime in), Flip the QB's Sunday and who wins? I say Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Bill (and anyone else who wants to chime in), Flip the QB's Sunday and who wins? I say Bills. 816691[/snapback] Maybe, but what does this prove? Brady is probably the best qb in the NFL, and JP is at this point, a nobody. Even if Brady would have made the difference in this one particular game, how long do you think he would last behind Gandy, CV and co.? Brady, because he cannot run as good as JP, might be dead by now playing behind this garbage. If anybody might do well on the Bills, it would be Michael Vick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I say Bills. 816691[/snapback] I say Toe-MAY-toe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tortured Soul Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Maybe, but what does this prove? Brady is probably the best qb in the NFL, and JP is at this point, a nobody. 816704[/snapback] It proves that this may not matter that much. JP, who is protected by garbage and surrounded by players who are marginal. 816685[/snapback] The Pats' line was worse than the Bills' Sunday. Good QB's (and, yes, Brady is the best), live with that. I think he could live behind this line for quitte a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillWalton Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Even if Brady would have made the difference in this one particular game, how long do you think he would last behind Gandy, CV and co.? Brady, because he cannot run as good as JP, might be dead by now playing behind this garbage. 816704[/snapback] I think Aaron Schobel made Matt Light look like Gandy against the Bears last Sunday... Brady got as beat up in the 1st half against us as JP ever has in a half of football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geo in Pa Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 It might not be wise to compare Bradshaw to any qb in any era, let alone JP, who is protected by garbage and surrounded by players who are marginal. Probably only a few here remember this (chime in AD, please ), but Pitt fans initially hated Bradshaw, and local papers took polls on whether or not he should be benched. The knock on him was that he was "dumb." His competition was journeyman Terry Hanratty, and a player named Joe Gilliam, who believe it or not, had more talent than Bradshaw. Joe Gilliam was African-American; a problem in those days. Shameful but true. He had a great arm and mobility. Seriously, picture JP x 2, and that was the talent level of this kid. As I recall, his problem was drugs, and his career was sadly uneventful. Bradshaw played on perhaps the greatest team ever. They had literal stars on almost every defensive position, and were almost impossible to score on. Their DTs were Joe Greene (yes R.Rich, the best ever ) and "Arrowhead" Holmes. Running against them was impossible, and LC Greenwood and Dwight White provided outside pass rush. Their LBs were in the top 5 lb units (imo) ever, and the secondary, led by Mel Blount, was as good as it gets. Ya think Bradshaw got good field position? On offense, Bradshaw had every imaginable weapon in terms of wideouts, and Franco Harris at RB. He played behind an OL which was chock full of superstars, and they had Rocky Blier to help block. They even had 2 very good TEs (Grossman and Cunningham). My point is, it is very hard to compare Bradshaw to any other quarterback, because none of the others ever had this kind of a supporting cast. What Bradshaw DID prove was that he was a clutch player, and a tough guy with the heart of a lion. Does JP have all of this? I have no idea. Put a young Terry Bradshaw on the Bills in 06, and he wouldn't last the season. He had a tendency to run head on into linebackers, or anybody else. The NFL has changed, but the basics remain the same. Unless these OL changes work, expecting JP to avoid injury this season is rather naive. The sad truth is that the people who want him benched need only to remain patient. The Bills (or perhaps RW specifically) have chosen to sell seats, and profit on a short term basis. People will cheer when Evans breaks a long one, or when Little Roscoe scores one of his very few TDs. This (in the short term) sells more tickets than having Jonathan Ogden, or other good blockers on the team. Imo, this is his major concern. Sad, but true. 816685[/snapback] There is one QB you can compare to Bradshaw - Joe Ferguson - I know it is off the topic - but look at their numbers - they played in the same era and the numbers are almost identical. Bradshaw did have more TD's but everything else was very similiar. If Joe only had a defence besides the 1980 team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I think Aaron Schobel made Matt Light look like Gandy against the Bears last Sunday... Brady got as beat up in the 1st half against us as JP ever has in a half of football. 816755[/snapback] Again, Brady is probably the best in the NFL. I am missing the point here BW. Are you saying that all we need to do is go out and get the best qb in football and we will be OK? The fact that Brady got beat up and still survived long enough to win one game proves nothing imo. Over the course of a season, he would get murdered on the Bills. We can dump JP and draft another qb. Is that what you want? We can also chase scrubs such as Volker or Schwaub, but that won't work either. Teams that are weak up front lose football games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Yes, the Steelers were loaded with good talent. 816461[/snapback] The Steelers were loaded with a lot of guys on steroids before it became prevalent, thus giving them a huge advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 My point is that Bradshaw is an exception rather than the rule 816486[/snapback] The real point is that there is no rule. Some QBs develop quickly, some take a long time and some just don't develop at all. It's tough to know how long to wait before giving up on a player. I'm a patient fellow but I'm not willing to give JP 5 years as a starter before he gets it. By the same token I'm not going to throw him under the bus when he has a bad 3 game stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobot Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Please refer to this list. QB's in their first 3-4 years What I see is that Losman needs more than 17 starts. That's one season's worth. Most of these guys were not great out of the gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 It's pointless to compare a QB from the early 70s to a modern QB. The QB position and even the game itself has changed and evolved over the last 30 years. For example, check out this chart of 4000 yard QBs Notice last year there were two 4000 yard QBs (Brady & Green). Before 1980 there were two all time (Namath '67 & Fouts '79). Just a quick looks like there were roughly as many 4000 yard QBs 1996-2005 as there were <=1995 My point being the game is totally different between Bradshaw's time and JPs time. You could probably find stats proving JP had a better early career than the late great Johnny U oh and btw, here is the link to the real chart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 I think people are impatient with JP because they didn't want to wait for him to develop after having gone through the RJ saga. It was stupid to even draft JP in the first place. Why didn't they just bring in a veteran QB instead -- why make the fans wait on another project? And just because Bledsoe sucked doesn't mean that savvy QBs like Brad Johnson weren't available that you could win with. If a young QB was needed that badly, the Bills should've at least built an offensive line and defense first so that he could be developed properly ala Roethlisberger and Rivers. The Bills did things so assbackwards that it just pi$$es people off. Why the hell do we have to wait on this mistake prone QB to develop? I hate waiting, especially since there's no guarantee he'll pan out anyway. Shouldn't they have put this strategy up to a vote with the fans before they went ahead and did it? Seriously, after RJ, would ANYONE have voted for the Bills to use a first round draft pick on a SoCal QB who played on a losing team in college, got sacked a lot, wasn't very accurate and bore a bit of a physical resemblance to RJ? I would have rather seen them build other parts of the team and bring in a vet to win instead. And about JP himself. My honest feeling about him is that his ceiling is Jake Plummer. All my instincts while watching him play tell me this. What is the impact if I'm right? It means, provided Marv can hit on some draft picks or free agents that improve the lines (and Marv has yet to show this ability), the Bills will probably improve over the next few years and perhaps even make the playoffs with JP at the helm. If Marv does a good job drafting and signing free agents (again, huge if) several years in a row, they may even become perennial playoff contenders with JP. But the season will always end in a loss because JP will make mistakes in crucial moments just like Jake Plummer does. Denver has a great team this year (and last year as well), and they have NO SHOT at winning the Super Bowl because Plummer is their QB. That's who JP reminds me of. A guy who is a double threat with his arm and his legs but who never really has total command of what he's doing and will never inspire confidence in his teammates or fans watching him, a guy who the opposition can "wait out" on to make a crucial mistake to lose the game. Anyway, the Bills are so far away from where Denver is that I can't really complain if that's how things play out. Making the playoffs and losing is still far better than being a sh!tty team. 816629[/snapback] i don't necessarily agree with everything you say here (losman has a stronger arm than plummer, who dropped to the second round because of his arm), but this is a good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogbyte Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 In this salary cap era , you can no longer wait 5 years for a QB to develop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bflojohn Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 Here's a point to ponder about Drew Brees. Go check Street and Smiths, or Lindys' or ANY magazine or paper that had a prediction for the San Diego Chargers the year they went 12-4 (2004, I believe). Everyone. and I mean Charger fans too thought that that team was one of the WORST teams in the NFL. The O-line was HIGHLY suspect and Brees was coming off a season where he did NOTHING to inspire the fan base. The franchise even drafted a 1st round QB in Phillip Rivers who was destined as Brees' heir-apparent! My point is that the "light" can and does "go on" for QB's at various stages and in a contemporary sense Drew Brees is a classic case that can be a measure for development at this time in NFL history. Note: Terry Bradshaw was extremely hurt by the Pittsburgh "faithful" and this bore out with his reluctance to EVER go back to Pittsburgh until, what.... last year?! Thomas "Hollywood" Hendeson is famous for his comment about spotting Terry the C and the A to spell cat! By the way, I'm ALL FOR building a DOMINATING team worthy of comparison to the 70's Pittsburgh Steelers! Wouldn't THAT be fun!!! Sub Note: YES, JP Losman could win with that type of team! Give it time people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2003Contenders Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 The funny thing about Bradshaw is that in his early years the team was very close to giving up on him. However, the Rooneys remembered how much bad luck the Steelers had had in the past when giving up on QBs too early: Johnny Unitas, Lynn Dawson, and Jack Kemp had all originally been drafted by Pittsburgh -- and the team subsequently cut all three of them. Of course, all three went onto do great things with other clubs. It was this realization that forced them to be patient with Bradshaw. The rest is history... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Far I Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 The Bradshaw comparison is ridiculous. Look back 30+ years in the NFL. Obviously, it was a completely different game. Ever seen Namath's stats? Stabler's? Unitas'? According to this strand of logic, Kurt Warner is a better QB than Fran Tarkenton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungee Jumper Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 I don't know whether Losman is going to pan out or not. I still have hopes he will. But the talk on the board has made me think about Terry Bradshaw's early career (another strong-armed QB who had a rep for running the ball when he came into the league). I seemed to remember his stinking up the place in his first few years. Granted, the times were different then (completion precentages were generally lower overall), but still, look at these numbers. year games att comp pct. yds. ypa TD INT rushes yds ypc TD 1970 13 218 83 38.1 1,410 6.5 6 24 32 233 7.3 1 1971 14 373 203 54.4 2,259 6.1 13 22 53 247 4.7 5 1972 14 308 147 47.7 1,887 6.1 12 12 58 346 6.0 7 1973 10 180 89 49.4 1,183 6.6 10 15 34 145 4.3 3 1974 8 148 67 45.3 785 5.3 7 8 34 224 6.6 2 1975 14 286 165 57.7 2,055 7.2 18 9 35 210 6.0 3 In the first five years he completed more than half of his passes only once. It wasn't until his sixth year that he had more TD's than Interceptions. Can you imagine what this board would be like if Losman, over his first 13 games, had a 38% completion percentage with 6 TD's to 24 interceptions? It wasn't until 1975 that he had a "good" season, and that was not coincidentally the first year the Steelers went to the Super Bowl. They made it on running and defense. I don't want to draw too many conclusions from this, but thought you might like to consider it. 816436[/snapback] I don't want to draw any conclusions from it. Terry Bradshaw? Are we really getting that desperate in our arguments about Losman that we have to drag Terry friggin' Bradshaw up as an example? You know, JP Losman and Otto Graham both have six letters in their last name. I don't want to draw too many conclusions from this, but thought you might like to consider it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 But haven't college defenses kept pace (relatively speaking)? 816682[/snapback] Outside of Columbus, Ohio and Baton Rouge, Louisiana? I'd say no (emphatically). Tackling in college is horrible and decent QBs regularly carve up all but the best defenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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