Trading Losman

[Fan in San Diego]

JP has a regular haircut now doesn't he ? Maybe he's matured thru the off season and is ready to get to work ?

[1billsfan]

Yup crazy here's some research for you oh mighty

 

Holcomb Record in 05........ 3-4

JP Record in 05................. 2-7 (counting KC as Win)

Holcomb QB Rating............ 85.6

JP QB Rating-.................... 64.9

Holcomb COMP%-............. 67.4%

JP COMP%- ......................49.6%

Holcomb Yards Per Att-....... 6.56

JP Yards For Att-.................5.88

 

Also the post topic was simply to imply if we traded JP then something outside of what we know must have been going on, and that we should trust our decision makers to handle that. If you think your more informed about JP then our decision makers then I don't know what else to say other then I'm not surprised.

648330[/snapback]

 

JP had 3 more passes over 40 plus yards than Kelly.

JP had 1 more pass over 20 plus yards than Kelly.

(These are game changing type plays)

 

JP had 7 fumbles and lost 3, Kelly had 13 fumbles and lost 5

(Hmm...Kelly had 6 more fumbles and do I have to remind you of the last game of the season?)

 

JP had 154 rushing yards (5 yrd ave), Holcomb had 11 (.6 yrd ave)

(That equals 15 1st downs vs 1)

 

 

Sorry but JP's stats look much better than your Kelly Holcomb's stats and he will certainly beat out Holcomb and Nall in the next few months when his completion percentage improves.

[apuszczalowski]

LMAO!

 

A motivator????

 

You have your opinion,  and I have mine.

648381[/snapback]

 

You can question Marv as being an X's and O's ability as a coach cause that is what he did rely on his assistants and co-ordinators for, but you can't question his ability as a motivator.

 

When he spoke all the players listened and came to play for him.

[Risin]

You can question Marv as being an X's and O's ability as a coach cause that is what he did rely on his assistants and co-ordinators for, but you can't question his ability as a motivator.

 

When he spoke all the players listened and came to play for him.

648394[/snapback]

 

 

I can question whatever I like.

 

[apuszczalowski]

Yup crazy here's some research for you oh mighty

 

Holcomb Record in 05........ 3-4

JP Record in 05................. 2-7 (counting KC as Win)

Holcomb QB Rating............ 85.6

JP QB Rating-.................... 64.9

Holcomb COMP%-............. 67.4%

JP COMP%- ......................49.6%

Holcomb Yards Per Att-....... 6.56

JP Yards For Att-.................5.88

 

Also the post topic was simply to imply if we traded JP then something outside of what we know must have been going on, and that we should trust our decision makers to handle that. If you think your more informed about JP then our decision makers then I don't know what else to say other then I'm not surprised.

648330[/snapback]

 

The other fact you left out was experience in the league

 

Holcomb - How many years has he been a backup for? 10 years?

JP - 2nd year (first year actually being able to play and start)

 

That can make a huge difference, and their stats aren't too far off.

 

Also look at the games Holcomb won. He beat the Jets and Dolphins (before they stepped it up at the end) and the Bengals when they started struggling

 

JP beat the Texans and KC (not an easy win) He almost beat the Dolphins (can't blame all of that loss on him when their game plan gets thrown out the window when moulds left and he supplied the D with 21 points, they were the ones that could not hold a lead.

 

You don't know how many players were lobbying for JP except for some of the vets that didn't want to play for a developing rookie and did not like the fact he was just named as the starter without seeing what he could do first (big mistake by managment, even JP said it was a mistake, he would have earned respect of the players if he won the job) JP did not seem as cockie as they made him out to be when he was in college, during interviews (no one knows what goes on or is said in the locker room to say he was or wasn't) he seemed very humble and blamed alot of the losses on himself which was undeserved cause it was not just him.

 

I don't think everyone is saying JP will be the starter next year (he could lose that job to both guys) but trading him before he even has a chance to compete for it is just stupid.

[Dan Gross]

© 2006, dan gross inc.

647872[/snapback]

 

Thanks for covering.

[1billsfan]

You don't know how many players were lobbying for JP except for some of the vets that didn't want to play for a developing rookie and did not like the fact he was just named as the starter without seeing what he could do first (big mistake by managment, even JP said it was a mistake, he would have earned respect of the players if he won the job) JP did not seem as cockie as they made him out to be when he was in college, during interviews (no one knows what goes on or is said in the locker room to say he was or wasn't) he seemed very humble and blamed alot of the losses on himself which was undeserved cause it was not just him.

 

I don't think everyone is saying JP will be the starter next year (he could lose that job to both guys) but trading him before he even has a chance to compete for it is just stupid.

648410[/snapback]

 

Another thing lost on a lot of people is the fact that many of the malcontent veterans on this team played just as badly as JP and showed a lot less effort than the kid did. A lot of "It's not us, it's the kids fault!" in that 2005 season. That team was both physically AND mentally weak.

 

Enough of the hand wringing and let the best man win the QB competition. Then shut up and do your damn job.

[34-78-83]

I can question whatever I like.

 

648400[/snapback]

 

The point that Marv, as a coach, was a great motivator IS a fact. That really means nothing in the present, but not everything is subjective and up for opinion and debate.

[Mikie2times]

JP had 3 more passes over 40 plus yards than Kelly.

JP had 1 more pass over 20 plus yards than Kelly.

  (These are game changing type plays)

 

JP had 7 fumbles and lost 3, Kelly had 13 fumbles and lost 5

  (Hmm...Kelly had 6 more fumbles and do I have to remind you of the last game of the season?)

 

JP had 154 rushing yards (5 yrd ave), Holcomb had 11 (.6 yrd ave)

(That equals 15 1st downs vs 1)

Sorry but JP's stats look much better than your Kelly Holcomb's stats and he will certainly beat out Holcomb and Nall out in the next few months when his completion percentage improves.

648387[/snapback]

 

3 more passes over 40 yards, and 1 more pass over 20 is not more valuable then a QB rating difference of over 20 points, a completition % difference of nearly 18%, and a win% difference of over 20%. Not to mention the fact that fumbles statistics based year to year have practically no long term predictive value. Very few players have showed a consistently higher rate off fumbling year to year that aren't scramblers or players who are being excessively sacked. This trend is evident in Holcombs fumble rate prior to coming to Buffalo. In the two previous seasons he had over 100 attempts he fumbled only 1 time in 5 appearances in 02 and only 5 times in 10 appearances in 2003.

 

I can't argue with the scrambling dimension JP brings but it would only be an advantage if he can throw for enough yards that Holcomb won’t counteract it. JP averaged gaining 17.1 yards rushing per game while Kelly averaged 1.1 per game, a net difference of 16 yards a game. When you compare the average yards passing per game Kelly more then made up for it going fo 142.1 while JP averaged 105.5, a net difference of 36.6 yards per game.

 

Kelly outplayed JP last year and we have no reason to think he won't be able to do that again come preseason. He just has that much more knowledge and experience and it’s difficult for a yong QB to compete with that. What also troubles me is if JP does win the job look at the unit he will be taking over. Holcomb isn’t exactly a great player but JP is still raw, and this offense is extremely undermanned as of now. Those are the conditions we are hoping he can win the job under then on top of that were hoping he shows us enough to stay with him another year. If things don't work out then he probably ends up a losing most his trade value and drifts into the likes of a undisclosed Draft pick. It's not very far fetched considering it just happened to former Tulane QB Patrick Ramsey.

[MikeSpeed]

It must have just been me. But when JP was on the field I felt a lot more excitement in the offense's play. Like at any time we could score. With Holcomb I felt the offense had to struggle for every yard it gained. Maybe because it seemed like it took 3 completed passes in a row to get 1 first down when Holcomb was in. JP might not beat out Holcomb or Nall, but God I hope it's Nall then.

[Tortured Soul]

JP beat the Texans and  KC (not an easy win)

648410[/snapback]

Not so hard when the defense holds them to a combined 10 points.

[1billsfan]

3 more passes over 40 yards, and 1 more pass over 20 is not more valuable then a QB rating difference of over 20 points, a completition % difference of nearly 18%, and a win% difference of over 20%.  Not to mention the fact that fumbles statistics based year to year have practically no long term predictive value. Very few players have showed a consistently higher rate off fumbling year to year that aren't scramblers or players who are being excessively sacked.  This trend is evident in Holcombs fumble rate prior to coming to Buffalo. In the two previous seasons he had over 100 attempts he fumbled only 1 time in 5 appearances in 02 and only 5 times in 10 appearances in 2003. 

 

I can't argue with the scrambling dimension JP brings but it would only be an advantage if he can throw for enough yards that Holcomb won’t counteract it.  JP averaged gaining 17.1 yards rushing per game while Kelly averaged 1.1 per game, a net difference of 16 yards a game. When you compare the average yards passing per game Kelly more then made up for it going fo 142.1 while JP averaged 105.5, a net difference of 36.6 yards per game.

 

Kelly outplayed JP last year and we have no reason to think he won't be able to do that again come preseason. He just has that much more knowledge and experience and it’s difficult for a yong QB to compete with that. What also troubles me is if JP does win the job look at the unit he will be taking over. Holcomb isn’t exactly a great player but JP is still raw, and this offense is extremely undermanned as of now.  Those are the conditions we are hoping he can win the job under then on top of that were hoping he shows us enough to stay with him another year. If things don't work out then he probably ends up a losing most his trade value and drifts into the likes of a undisclosed Draft pick. It's not very far fetched considering it just happened to former Tulane QB Patrick Ramsey.

648479[/snapback]

 

You really don't understand what the threat of the long ball will do for an offense. Here's a hint: the threat of the long ball opens up the running game.

 

You seem to be fixated on completion percentage which obviously is the one thing Holcomb can do well. What you don't take into account is that these are all short passes and quick slants. These are routes that defenses are basically giving you since they have so many players in the box stopping the Bills' running game.

 

Yes, JP has yet to learn the importance of checking down to the more sure target. But JP also is a gunslinger that has a live arm which he has proven can connect on deep passes. JP has also shown the ability to escape and pick up first downs with his legs. These are two critical skills that Holcomb will never ever possess. At least JP can learn to increase his passing percentage by throwing to the shorter routes when it is more beneficial to do so (remember, he's had only eight games). Holcomb will never be able to throw deep or escape pass rushers and JP never looked as bad as Kelly did against the lowly Jets. Losman will be the Bills starter and Holcomb will end up being cut or the clip board holder.

 

Sorry, but I guess we're polar opposites on this subject.

[Tortured Soul]

Kzoo isn't just focusing on comp %. In YPA, Holcomb also holds a considerable advantage. And just because a pass is short doesn't mean it can't go long. An Evans 49 yarder comes to mind.

[Dan Gross]

Not so hard when the defense holds them to a combined 10 points.

648488[/snapback]

 

About evens up with what they did to the 21 points that JP spotted them early in the Miami game...Goes to show you what the kid could do when the defense did the job it was expected to going into the season. His play went to Hell in a handbucket when he had to play "catch-up."

[Mikie2times]

You really don't understand what the threat of the long ball will do for an offense. Here's a hint: the threat of the long ball opens up the running game.

 

You seem to be fixated on completion percentage which obviously is the one thing Holcomb can do well. What you don't take into account is that these are all short passes and quick slants. These are routes that defenses are basically giving you since they have so many players in the box stopping the Bills' running game.

 

Yes, JP has yet to learn the importance of checking down to the more sure target. But JP also is a gunslinger that has a live arm which he has proven can connect on deep passes. JP has also shown the ability to escape and pick up first downs with his legs. These are two critical skills that Holcomb will never ever possess. At least JP can learn to increase his passing percentage by throwing to the shorter routes when it is more beneficial to do so (remember, he's had only eight games). Holcomb will never be able to throw deep or escape pass rushers and JP never looked as bad as Kelly did against the lowly Jets. Losman will be the Bills starter and Holcomb will end up being cut or the clip board holder.

 

Sorry, but I guess we're polar opposites on this subject.

648514[/snapback]

 

I played football for 11 years, so I think I have a decent understanding of the game. Certainly the deep ball is the number one problem with Kelly Holcomb, but if JP doesn't know how to throw the short ball it won't matter that he can throw the deep ball. Regardless this topic has veered way off the beaten path. Arguing for Kelly Holcomb was never my intention, as I feel he is an inadequate starter at best but you almost need to be over the top in defending players around here when the off-season idiots bang the drum (not saying you).

[1billsfan]

Kzoo isn't just focusing on comp %.  In YPA, Holcomb also holds a considerable advantage.  And just because a pass is short doesn't mean it can't go long.  An Evans 49 yarder comes to mind.

648520[/snapback]

 

Holcomb = 8 men in the box

 

End of story.

[1billsfan]

I played football for 11 years, so I think I have a decent understanding of the game.  Certainly the deep ball is the number one problem with Kelly Holcomb, but if JP doesn't know how to throw the short ball it won't matter that he can throw the deep ball.  Regardless this topic has veered way off the beaten path. Arguing for Kelly Holcomb was never my intention, as I feel he is an inadequate starter at best but you almost need to be over the top in defending players around here when the off-season idiots bang the drum (not saying you).

648528[/snapback]

 

I'm all for the 3 horse QB competition of which I think JP will win handily. I'm hoping that it was Malarkey's deep ball play calling that did in JP's passing rate. If Holcomb wins it then fine, but I think he sucks and the Bills will certainly be in a heap of trouble if he's our best QB coming out of training camp.

[Risin]

The point that Marv, as a coach, was a great motivator IS a fact. That really means nothing in the present, but not everything is subjective and up for opinion and debate.

648443[/snapback]

 

 

It's not a fact.

 

It's an opinion, unless you were there.

 

Where was the motivation Super Bowl 25, a game in which we should have rolled the Giants. How about Super Bowl 26? 27? 28?

 

I'm done hijacking this thread. We'll agree to disagree.

[Bill from NYC]

It's not a fact.

 

It's an opinion,  unless you were there.

 

Where was the motivation Super Bowl 25,  a game in which we should have rolled the Giants.  How about Super Bowl 26?  27?  28?

 

I'm done hijacking this thread.  We'll agree to disagree.

648544[/snapback]

 

Marv had a lot of players on those teams with big time egos, and he was able to keep them focused. Being AFC Champs 4 times in a row is extremely hard to do under any conditions. I am guessing that these guys liked him, and rallied around him in some sense. He is also a very smart man.

 

There were many better game day coaches. Levy wasn't a Gibbs nor Parcells on the sideline, that's for sure.

 

What I DO like is to see him rid the club of players who were not going to make the Bills a winner. I was skeptical of his hiring, but I like what I have seen, I can't complain......unless of course he pulls a TD and fails to rebuild the lines in the draft.

[Tortured Soul]

About evens up with what they did to the 21 points that JP spotted them early in the Miami game...Goes to show you what the kid could do when the defense did the job it was expected to going into the season.  His play went to Hell in a handbucket when he had to play "catch-up."

648527[/snapback]

What does it show about the kid? I don't think it shows much of anything. And 21 points isn't that amazing. It's just been too long since we've been able to do it that we've forgotten there are teams that do that every week.