Trading Losman

[BillnutinHouston]

As fans,  we can afford to be wrong,  because it doesn't directly affect our teams record.

 

On the other hand,  if Marv does this,  and it backfires,  most Bills fans will be calling for his head. 

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Marv is untouchable. The Bills could go on to have one of the longest records of futility in the NFL under his leadership, and folks will still be worshiping him. That's just the way it is. Kind of like people wanting Jim Kelly to be head coach or their Congressman.

[Risin]

Marv is untouchable.  The Bills could go on to have one of the longest records of futility in the NFL under his leadership, and folks will still be worshiping him.  That's just the way it is.  Kind of like people wanting Jim Kelly to be head coach or their Congressman.

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I never worshipped Marv.

 

Then again, I'm in the small minority of people (or idiots) , who feel he was an overrated head coach.

 

I'm not going to debate it, those are just my feelings. Say what you will, but if I knew Marv was going to be TD's replacement, I would have opted to keep Tommy Boy.

[Mikie2times]

Wrong.  Again, there is scant evidence that JP has or had "maturity problems."  This is just not true and for days I've asked over and over for some proof other than the "well documented" RUMORS.

 

From my point of view, a persons overwhelming desire to win in college and the pros in the face of steep odds is not a character flaw.  JP led Tulane under very trying circumstances, overcame great odds and was a worthy number 1 draft pick in a stocked year.  I thnk JP would welcome the "luxuries" he had in Tulane -- only a bad OLine instead of a horrific one -- "veterans" who acted like winners and a coaching staff that cared just as much for the team than themselves. 

 

JP was the leader of that team and I won't believe these "rumors" unless someone can present "facts."

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This is laughable. You criticize me for having no facts regarding JP's maturity yet you name him the unquestioned leader of this team. This is based on what? Was it his benching that gave you that impression? No doubt an effective coaching strategy is to bench your unquestioned leader to spike motivation. That strategy must have peaked when we beat Cincinnati on the road for our best win of the year.

 

If you followed this team at all last year starting after the Saints game all of the Buffalo newspapers began reporting the division in the lockeroom at the QB position. The rumors were further substantiated when the season ended by both members of the Bills team, and even members of the staff. Prior to that at least 50% of all mocks available listed character as a question mark on JP out of Tulane, and to top it off you have the Melwalde Moore comments. If all this is news to you I really don’t know what to say beause it was widely discussed on here for months. Now even adding up all this stuff it's still just speculation, but don't ridicule me for leaning more towards these comments being true then your version of him being the unquestioned leader.

 

This is not the anti JP thread you or some of the other posters are making it out to be. I simply said if Marv Levy and Co. put Losman on the block I'm confident it would only be because of a major issue that we just don't have enough knowledge about. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense. Why is that so illogical? Would it be better for Marv to come to that evaluation about JP and say hey why not give him one more year to prove himself, that way we can see if he can overcome amazing odds while his trade value declines, and the pool of players isn't as strong.

 

It's easy to say let's see what he can do behind a good line but then again that theory just assumes the line will be better next year, or that somehow JP will have more options as we subtract Moulds and add Andre Davis. Odds are whoever the Bills go with at QB will be facing another difficult situation to be a in on a rebuilding team. In terms of trade value this might be JP's last year he has 2nd or 3rd round value, and it just so happens that it coincides with one of the strongest draft classes in recent memory, at a time we need help the most. Marv isn't seeing anything with JP past the fact that he is one of the QB's on the Buffalo Bills. JP is not Marv's guy, and if Marv feels strongly enough that he isn't the guy getting the best value now is not that shocking

[Max Fischer]

This is laughable. You criticize me for having no facts regarding JP's maturity yet you name him the unquestioned leader of this team. This is based on what? Was it his benching that gave you that impression? No doubt an effective coaching strategy is to bench your unquestioned leader to spike motivation.  That strategy must have peaked when we beat Cincinnati on the road for our best win of the year. 

 

If you followed this team at all last year starting after the Saints game all of the Buffalo newspapers began reporting the division in the lockeroom at the QB position. The rumors were further substantiated when the season ended by both members of the Bills team, and even members of the staff. Prior to that at least 50% of all mocks available listed character as a question mark on JP out of Tulane, and to top it off you have the Melwalde Moore comments. If all this is news to you I really don’t know what to say beause it was widely discussed on here for months.  Now even adding up all this stuff it's still just speculation, but don't ridicule me for leaning more towards these comments being true  then your version of him being the unquestioned leader. 

 

This is not the anti JP thread you or some of the other posters are making it out to be. I simply said if Marv Levy and Co. put Losman on the block I'm confident it would only be because of a major issue that we just don't have enough knowledge about. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense.  Why is that so illogical? Would it be better for Marv to come to that evaluation about JP and say hey why not give him one more year to prove himself,  that way we can see if he can overcome amazing odds while his trade value declines, and the pool of players isn't as strong. 

 

It's easy to say let's see what he can do behind a good line but then again that theory just assumes the line will be better next year, or that somehow JP will have more options as we subtract Moulds and add Andre Davis. Odds are whoever the Bills go with at QB will be facing another difficult situation to be a in on a rebuilding team. In terms of trade value this might be JP's last year he has 2nd or 3rd round value, and it just so happens that it coincides with one of the strongest draft classes in recent memory, at a time we need help the most.  Marv isn't seeing anything with JP past the fact that he is one of the QB's on the Buffalo Bills. JP is not Marv's guy, and if Marv feels strongly enough that he isn't the guy getting the best value now is not that shocking

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Read it again, Professor. I said he was the leader of Tulane. And besides Moore, no other player is ever quoted.

[ganesh]

I agree, the maturity problem seemed well documented, if this is how it plays out  perhaps it was just Teflon taking another reach.

 

From what I've witnessed since JP became a pro is if he does have a maturity problem I think it has a lot to do with his expectations. The combination of a lack of humbleness and the inability to back it up will not go along very well with NFL players, especially when it's coming from a QB.  JP acted as if he should be held to the standard of a hall of fame QB, and openly discussed his goal of being the best ever. Both of these feelings would be positive with a player who had the humbleness to keep those thoughts inside but JP didn't. Veterans know how difficult the NFL is and I don't see them siding with a guy who has these outlooks when on the field he can't muster anything to back it up.

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I don't know where this "JP is not humble" came from.....Every time we lost,

JP took lot of blame on himself...He was not blaming his coaches or his horrible

OL or lack of a running game......It is really idiotic to say that JP acted like a

HoF QB....There is no proof to something like that....

[ganesh]

You know, that imo was a great post until the last sentence, because I know so little about Nall, and watching Holcombe start for an entire season would probably wreck what little is left of my rather weak stomach.   

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Right on the Dot........JP was benchd becaused a coward coach wanted to

save his job and also wanted to give in to the demands of veteran players

like a Moulds....JP did not do himself a favor by not playing well....but with

the kind of team we had, there was not going to be a chance for him to

get that shot.

[Bill from NYC]

Right on the Dot........JP was benchd becaused a coward coach wanted to

save his job and also wanted to give in to the demands of veteran players

like a Moulds....JP did not do himself a favor by not playing well....but with

the kind of team we had, there was not going to be a chance for him to

get that shot.

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He never should have been placed in that situation to begin with, but I guess that you don't want to go there.

[Mikie2times]

Read it again, Professor.  I said he was the leader of Tulane.  And besides Moore, no other player is ever quoted.

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Here's one for ya, how about a head coach having so much pressure from players that that he has to start Holcomb, all this despite it being both completely illogical in the midst of a losing season, and media suicide to his coaching career.

 

One more thing you failed to consider is this is an open QB competition, who's to say Losman would win the job in that situation? Holcomb was not very good last year but he was noticeably more efficient leading the offense then JP was. Looking at Nall you have a guy similar in age who has actually had better number recently then JP has, albeit in mop up duty. He also has is a former ALL NFL Europe QB selection in 03, and benefited from learning from Farve the last couple of years. If you expect he came to Buffalo with the intention of making a lateral move think again

[Max Fischer]

Here's one for ya, how about a head coach having so much pressure from players that that he has to start Holcomb, all this despite it being both completely illogical in the midst of a losing season, and media suicide to his coaching career.

 

Pressure from which players? The veterans right? Would that be Moulds and Milloy? Where are they now? Where are the coach and GM who didn't make the decision that Giants and Cincy had the balls to do? Where is their responsiblity? All Holcomb proved that it wasn't JP alone, the whole organization failed. Was any questioning JPs character? No.

 

 

One more thing you failed to consider is this is an open QB competition, who's to say Losman would win the job in that situation? Holcomb was not very good last year but he was noticeably more efficient leading the offense then JP was. Looking at Nall you have a guy similar in age who has actually had better number recently then JP has, albeit in mop up duty. He also has is a former ALL NFL Europe QB selection in 03, and benefited from learning from Farve the last couple of years. If you expect he came to Buffalo with the intention of making a lateral move think again

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First, this post topic has nothing to do wiht the QB competition. There is nothing to "consider" re: his character or maturity. Moreover, it's easy to re-write history and say that Holcomb was any way shape or measure robbed of the starting job. Kelly simply did not make the case that he was clearly better the JP and JP needed to sit on the bench.

 

Nall: please. I'm sure you read when he played and under what circumstances and you STILL sure that Nall is better than JP? Unbelievable.

[dave mcbride]

I’ll admit to being surprised about the JP trade rumors, if nothing else you just don't see many young 1st round QB's being shopped around.  While I'm surprised I'm not upset, and since that seems to be the overwhelming response from the fan base I have to ask why?

 

The main school of thought that seems to be floating around is we don't know what we have yet in JP, and since his price was a 1st rounder at a vital position we must wait to find out.  People have even used the Brett Farve analogy to describe a player who in a similar situation went onto to have amazing success.

 

The majority of the time this logic is sound and should be applied to younger QB's.  But to simply follow this idea blindly without truly analyzing the individual circumstances would not be a sound strategy.

 

What we know from the media and player histories is that Kelly Holcomb has always been known as a team guy, and JP Losman had some character question marks coming out of Tulane.  From this we can safely assume one thing; Kelly Holcomb is a team guy.  With Losman we just didn't have enough information to substantiate the Tulane reports.  Kelly had a great reputation with the Colts, Browns, and now Buffalo, and we've heard the same from so many players that we know it's legit.

 

As the nightmare from last season ended and the truth came out we learned from several different sources that the locker room heavily backed Holcomb as the starter.  To me that is a critical peace of information because it explains the unorthodox decision Mularkey was forced to make when he benched JP. Logic does not say you bench your "QB of the future" in what was clearly a losing year.

 

Why the players backed Kelly is the most important question that needs to be asked, but unfortunately only the Bills management and players know the answers. We can speculate that it was because he offered the players the best chance at winning, or we can say it was because he had a history of strong player support.  On the flip side maybe the reports from Tulane were true, and JP wasn't the best teammate.

 

If these latest reports about JP being traded are indeed true then that goes a long way in showing what happened last season.  I just can't picture our entire staff evaluating JP, and then deciding to put him on the block in this stage of his career unless major red flags went off.  If that's the case then why bother keeping him? For every Brett Farve the NFL has 1,000 Joey Harrington’s, Cade McNowns, Akili Smith's or Patrick Ramsey's.  The odds of JP turning the corner are drastically smaller then him fading away.  If the Bills have noticed something about him in terms of maturity then those odds get even smaller.

 

If the Bills decide to stick with JP then I will still be supportive of that decision, I guess the point is if they do decide to trade him we shouldn't sit here worrying we traded away our chance at greatness.  All we really have to go on is one poor season and the evaluation of a GM that never brought us a playoff appearance. 

If we can cut bait for a 2nd or 3rd rounder in this years talented draft class then we should do it, and fans shouldn't be panicking we made the wrong decision.  If you like knowing a young QB is on the roster who could be the future of this team why can't Nall be that guy? He's put up better numbers then JP in the same amount of time, and also has an all-NFL Europe QB award to his credit in 2003. Sure he's a long shot at this point but isn't JP?

 

Trust the staff, building a foundation is boring and slow when it's done right but in the end it pays off.

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excellent post.

[Guest dog14787]

Marv is untouchable.  The Bills could go on to have one of the longest records of futility in the NFL under his leadership, and folks will still be worshiping him.  That's just the way it is.  Kind of like people wanting Jim Kelly to be head coach or their Congressman.

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Yes, you could say that alot of people have faith in both of them. Kelly being coach? We will probably never know how good he could be. Its more than X's and O's to make a good leader. I believe players would walk threw fire for a guy like Jim Kelly. As for Levy, its a mute point because levy is going to get Buffalo its first championship!!

[BUFFALOTONE]

Well, here you go, per KFFL:

 

Bills | Losman Has Maturity Problems

Thu, 30 Mar 2006 06:21:23 -0800

 

Larry Feltzer, of the Buffalo News, reports QB JP Losman (Bills) is a chronic bed-wetter, has all of the Austin Powers movies on DVD, and giggles whenever he hears the word "duty", in any context.

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Are you serious, this is the best you can come up with.

[Mikie2times]

Pressure from which players?  The veterans right?  Would that be Moulds and Milloy?  Where are they now?  Where are the coach and GM who didn't make the decision that Giants and Cincy had the balls to do?  Where is their responsiblity?  All Holcomb proved that it wasn't JP alone, the whole organization failed.  Was any questioning JPs character?  No.

First, this post topic has nothing to do wiht the QB competition. There is nothing to "consider" re: his character or maturity.  Moreover, it's easy to re-write history and say that Holcomb was any way shape or measure robbed of the starting job.  Kelly simply did not make the case that he was clearly better the JP and JP needed to sit on the bench.

 

Nall: please.  I'm sure you read when he played and under what circumstances and you STILL sure that Nall is better than JP?  Unbelievable.

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Yup crazy here's some research for you oh mighty

 

Holcomb Record in 05........ 3-4

JP Record in 05................. 2-7 (counting KC as Win)

Holcomb QB Rating............ 85.6

JP QB Rating-.................... 64.9

Holcomb COMP%-............. 67.4%

JP COMP%- ......................49.6%

Holcomb Yards Per Att-....... 6.56

JP Yards For Att-.................5.88

 

Also the post topic was simply to imply if we traded JP then something outside of what we know must have been going on, and that we should trust our decision makers to handle that. If you think your more informed about JP then our decision makers then I don't know what else to say other then I'm not surprised.

[BUFFALOTONE]

I never worshipped Marv.

 

Then again,  I'm in the small minority of people (or idiots)  ,  who feel he was an overrated head coach.

 

I'm not going to debate it,  those are just my feelings.  Say what you will,  but if I knew Marv was going to be TD's replacement,  I would have opted to keep Tommy Boy.

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You dont go to 4 strait and be considered over rated. Marv was a great coach and an even better motivator, very rare for this day in age.

[BUFFALOTONE]

One thing that has me confused is that if Nall was so good, why would Green Bay go and drafted Aaron Rogers? Why would they not compensate Nall and let him and Rogers earn the spot when Favre retires.

[BillsGuyInMalta]

One thing that has me confused is that if Nall was so good, why would Green Bay go and drafted Aaron Rogers? Why would they not compensate Nall and let him and Rogers earn the spot when Favre retires.

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I think that has to do with Rodgers falling so far in the Draft. It would be very similiar to what would happen if say a guy like AJ Hawk would fall to us this year. We have good, strong LBs...but when a prospect like that falls into your laps its going to be hard to pass him up.

 

Rodgers was supposed to go #1 overall but fell all the way to the Pack...I dont blame them at all for taking him, it was the right move to snag him and, at the very least, provide another option as Favre's replacement.

[Mikie2times]

One thing that has me confused is that if Nall was so good, why would Green Bay go and drafted Aaron Rogers? Why would they not compensate Nall and let him and Rogers earn the spot when Favre retires.

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Nall is nothing yet, in fact we know very little about the long term prospects of Nall. I just keep bringing him up as a point of emphasis because I find it funny how Nall is a scrub to so many and JP is a player we MUST wait on. Why can't people detach the round a player was drafted in? NOTHING JP has done at this point as a NFL player gives him a better long term outlook then Nail and in some instances he is even less accomplished.

[Risin]

I think that has to do with Rodgers falling so far in the Draft.  It would be very similiar to what would happen if say a guy like AJ Hawk would fall to us this year.  We have good, strong LBs...but when a prospect like that falls into your laps its going to be hard to pass him up.

 

Rodgers was supposed to go #1 overall but fell all the way to the Pack...I dont blame them at all for taking him, it was the right move to snag him and, at the very least, provide another option as Favre's replacement.

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Sure, and the year before they wanted JP.

 

They must've been stoked about Nall's potential.

 

[stuckincincy]

I think that has to do with Rodgers falling so far in the Draft.  It would be very similiar to what would happen if say a guy like AJ Hawk would fall to us this year.  We have good, strong LBs...but when a prospect like that falls into your laps its going to be hard to pass him up.

 

Rodgers was supposed to go #1 overall but fell all the way to the Pack...I dont blame them at all for taking him, it was the right move to snag him and, at the very least, provide another option as Favre's replacement.

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Here's who the Packers brought in to occupy Mr. Nall's empty locker.

 

"Packers Add QB Arth, Re-sign Cole

posted 03/22/2006

 

2006 Transactions

The Green Bay Packers Wednesday signed Tom Arth and re-signed exclusive-rights free agent Colin Cole. Executive Vice President, General Manager and Director of Football Operations Ted Thompson made the announcement.

 

Arth, a quarterback from John Carroll University, has spent all or parts of the last three seasons with the Colts. Originally a nondrafted free agent, Arth last season was on the team's practice squad. As a senior in college, he earned first-team All-America honors at Division III John Carroll."

 

http://www.packers.com/news/releases/2006/03/22/1/

[Risin]

You dont go to 4 strait and be considered over rated. Marv was a great coach and an even better motivator, very rare for this day in age.

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LMAO!

 

A motivator????

 

You have your opinion, and I have mine.