not passing judgement, but if anyone thinks the

[obie_wan]

perhaps he did, but then he'd be just like every other pending free agent in the league (in fact, it'd be gross dereliction of duty by an agent if he neglected shopping his client's services beforehand - they all do it now). 

 

i do think that the bills don't want him going to the pats, and that could be playing a role in all of this. that said, the pats are smart, and know that the bills will eventually have to cut him. if they bide their time, they'll have their chance. as for a trade, that's a no go for everyone involved - the accelerated bonuses etc. preclude that.

628097[/snapback]

\

1`. Moulds is not a pending free agent. he is under copntract for 2 years, so any team contacting him or his agent is tampering.

 

2. bonus acceleration is the same if he is cut or traded.

 

Bills are smart to wait to see where TO goes. There are not many other good free agent WRs, so the Bills may be able to trade Moulds as other WR options dry up.

[Kelly the Dog]

And this careful analysis is the result of your study that every other NFL player that caught 80 balls in 15 games last season is going to only receive a combination of $3.2 million dollars in salary and cap hit from amortized signing bonus next year ?????

 

         

Isn't his salary for this year $7million?  Whatever.  Its not like Moulds just *wants* $7 million, he accepted that "signing bonus" which you are calling his "payment for this year" in exchange for signing a contract that promised to pay him that much for this year. 

 

All Eric Moulds wants is for the Bills to either:

a) Abide by the signed contract

b) Let Eric Moulds shop his services to the highest bidder before agreeing to a pay cut.

 

What's so wrong with that?    If the Bills are so convinced that Moulds isn't worth the terms of the contract, then they should let Moulds find out how much Philadelphia, Cleveland, Minnesota, or anyone else is willing to pay, and if the Bills are right they can sign him to an Isaac Bruce deal.  Moulds, however, I think wisely doesn't want to get caught negotiating against himself, and instead of just handing a give-back to management, he wants to find out what he is worth.

 

I can't fault him for that.  And of course, the Bills seem to be speaking by their actions that they aren't 100% convinced that Moulds is overpaid, or else they would have released him a long time ago now.

 

JDG

628349[/snapback]

1. I don't understand your logic in the first response. Surely this is just opinion, but I would say Eric Moulds is worth about 4 million this year, to any team. It may be higher, it may be lower. I think he's worth about 4 million due to his age and his diminishing skills. I still hope we keep him, actually. Just not for 10.8 mil on the books. I think the 2 mil pay cut is too small, but I would accept it. That would pay him 5 mil salary this year plus 3.67 mil in bonus money that he was paid 2 mil of 5 years ago, and 1.67 mil two years ago. he has already pocketed that money. And my response to dave was in context of the Bills screwing Moulds. Moulds wants the Bills to cut him. If we do, we would be paying Moulds 5.3 million or so for NOT playing a down for us. That would be screwing the Bills.

 

It is also my opinion that Moulds is not going to get more than 5 million per year from another team. It's possible he may, but I don't think so. So even if he took the 2 mil pay cut offer from the bills, he would be getting that 5 mil PLUS 3.67 mil in bonus money for this season which he long ago pocketed. That's 8.67 mil for Eric Moulds this year, when he is worth, IMO, half of that. The Bills are not being unreasonable.

[mead107]

watching moulds last year not play hard pissed me off . some times last year he did not even try to get open (run a few yards and stop) . . i do like him on our team ,but not at the money he wants .

[Bill from NYC]

watching moulds last year not play hard pissed me off . some times last year he did not even try to get open (run a few yards and stop) . . i do like him on our team ,but not at the money he wants .

628371[/snapback]

 

I only went to one game last season, so it is hard to almost impossible for me to say how many plays he dogged it on, but if you are correct, why would you want him at any price?

[The Senator]

given that the bills aren't going to pay moulds what they agreed to pay as per the contract, they can do one of two things:

 

cut him now and let him shop his services while the riches are still out there.

 

let him twist in the wind and then cut him after the crazy $10 million bonuses for mid-tier guys worse than moulds dry up.

 

to compare, the rams cut isaac bruce a week or so ago, let him shop his services briefly (which he could do because he's a vested vet), and then resigned him after he learned that the rams were offering the best deal.  on the other hand, the eagles aren't cutting TO, and i strongly suspect that they're trying to screw him as hard as they possibly can. you can be sure that they will cut him, but only at a time that's inconvenient for owens.

 

the bills seem to be playing the same game with moulds. it would be one thing if he was demanding more money than he is supposed to receive in his contract, but he's not. what he and his advisor are arguing about is the magnitude of the *cut* he's being asked to take. he's not going for what the bills are offering, so the bills will inevitably cut him. just not now, while he can make some real money elsewhere (i.e. an $8 million bonus or so). unless they change their minds quickly, it'll be hard to conclude that the bills aren't doing anything else than conducting a charade about negotiating in good faith. behind it, they're all about deliberately teaching him a hard lesson.  from the outside, it looks a little bush league, but i don't know all the facts. i suspect that marv isn't a huge fan of moulds, who played poorly for him the two seasons that marv coached him: 1996 & 1997. in fact, he was out of shape in 97 and had a bad season. he came around in 98, but marv was gone by that point.  the suspension last year probably pissed a number of people in the organization off, plus you've got to figure in the "if not for the nfl, jail" factor when discussing moulds. anyway, i suspect that there's some bad blood between the parties by this point, and that the bills aren't feeling particularly charitable.

628084[/snapback]

 

I certainly don't think it's a "given" that the Bills won't - in the end - bite the bullet and honor their contract with Moulds...

 

(from this morning's Rochester D&C)

 

General manager Marv Levy, however, said the team's position with Moulds hasn't changed and he still expected dialogue to occur.

 

"Our intention remains to keep Eric as a part of our team," Levy said.

 

Also, if they don't honor the contract and can't come to terms, they have a third option besides the two you mention - the third being a trade. That could be a "win-win".

 

I really don't think it's like Levy to deliberately screw the guy - I think Levy is sincere when he says he wants Moulds here, and I think Moulds will stay here.

 

OTOH, Philly should want to screw T.O.! Unlike Moulds, who has 10 years of loyal service to the Bills, T.O instantly wanted to renegotiate, was a cancer in the locker room, and basically screwed royally a team that was looking like a serious Superbowl contender from the previous season.

[dave mcbride]

\

1`. Moulds is not a pending free agent. he is under copntract for 2 years, so any team contacting him or his agent is tampering.

 

2. bonus acceleration is the same if he is cut or traded.

 

Bills are smart to wait to see where TO goes. There are not many other good free agent  WRs, so the Bills may be able to trade Moulds as other WR options dry up.

628363[/snapback]

any team that deals with an agent for a player on another team whose contract is up before free agency begins is tampering. it happens all the time. did you ever wonder how we signed jeff posey at 12:01 am? i seriously can't believe people get their panties in a bunch over this issue. it's so picayune and inoffensive -- it's just business.

 

as for trading, i'm not talking about the bills, i'm talking about their trading counterpart, who would assume a huge cap figure with moulds assuming he keeps his current contract. anyway, these sorts of trades hardly ever happen.

[dave mcbride]

I really don't think it's like Levy to deliberately screw the guy - I think Levy is sincere when he says he wants Moulds here, and I think Moulds will stay here.

 

OTOH, Philly should want to screw T.O.! Unlike Moulds, who has 10 years of loyal service to the Bills, T.O instantly wanted to renegotiate, was a cancer in the locker room, and basically screwed royally a team that was looking like a serious Superbowl contender from the previous season.

628387[/snapback]

 

marv isn't running the show though - wilson is, and in any case i'm sure john guy, modrak, overdorf, etc. are sharing their opinions with marv about this. it may be the case that everyone who was here last year is pretty pissed.

[dave mcbride]

It is also my opinion that Moulds is not going to get more than 5 million per year from another team. It's possible he may, but I don't think so. So even if he took the 2 mil pay cut offer from the bills, he would be getting that 5 mil PLUS 3.67 mil in bonus money for this season which he long ago pocketed. That's 8.67 mil for Eric Moulds this year, when he is worth, IMO, half of that. The Bills are not being unreasonable.

628366[/snapback]

dog, i tend to look at bonuses differently i guess -- i count them as part of the first year salary, because you never know what can happen in year 2 -- torn acl's broken limbs, cartilege damage, etc. if he were to get a bonus of, say, 8 million -- not out of the water because he's a better player than randle el, who got more -- plus a base of $1 million, he'd make $9 million next year, more than he'd make for the bills.

[JDG]

1. I don't understand your logic in the first response. Surely this is just opinion, but I would say Eric Moulds is worth about 4 million this year, to any team. It may be higher, it may be lower. I think he's worth about 4 million due to his age and his diminishing skills. I still hope we keep him, actually. Just not for 10.8 mil on the books. I think the 2 mil pay cut is too small, but I would accept it. That would pay him 5 mil salary this year plus 3.67 mil in bonus money that he was paid 2 mil of 5 years ago, and 1.67 mil two years ago. he has already pocketed that money. And my response to dave was in context of the Bills screwing Moulds. Moulds wants the Bills to cut him. If we do, we would be paying Moulds 5.3 million or so for NOT playing a down for us. That would be screwing the Bills.

 

It is also my opinion that Moulds is not going to get more than 5 million per year from another team. It's possible he may, but I don't think so. So even if he took the 2 mil pay cut offer from the bills, he would be getting that 5 mil PLUS 3.67 mil in bonus money for this season which he long ago pocketed. That's 8.67 mil for Eric Moulds this year, when he is worth, IMO, half of that. The Bills are not being unreasonable.

628366[/snapback]

 

Oh come on, Moulds is trying to protect himself. One of two things is going to happen to Eric Moulds:

1) He plays next season for the Buffalo Bills under his current contract

2) He is released by Buffalo and negotiates a new contract, either with the Bills or some other team, this season.

 

If option #2 comes to pass, Eric Moulds will make a lot more money if he is released today than if he is released in April, May, or June. I think that Moulds is well within his right to read the writing on the wall, and try and protect his ability to land a job for the highest possible salary next year. To call this "screwing the Bills" is beyond absurd. If the Bills thought that a $7 mil salary was going to be too much for a 33 year-old WR then they should not have offered Eric Moulds a signing bonus for signing the contract!!!!

 

Isaac Bruce who has two more NFL seasons of wear and tear on his body than Moulds, is one year older, and who caught a mere 36 balls in 11 games last year, while missing five due to injury, just landed the following deal from St. Louis - 3 years, $15mil, including $6 mil in this year alone. Bruce had been scheduled to earn $8.1 mil in salary with a $10 mil cap hit under his old contract.

 

Kelly, your sense of the market for WR's is waaaay off the mark.

 

From Eric Moulds' perspective he needs to look at things from the perspective of how much new money he can earn. The signing bonus is completely water under the bridge, sure it counts as cap hit this year, but that's accounting - and it doesn't make the water any less under the bridge. If Isaac Bruce can get $6 mil next year, Moulds has to think that there is at least a shot he can get at least the $7.1 million in new money he would be seeing this year under his contract for next year from a team like Philadelphia and Denver - and oh yes, if that happens, he'd have a lot better chance at playing in a Super Bowl. All Moulds is asking for is the chance to find out if he can get that $7 million for next year before he just stuffs some money back into Ralph Wilson's well-lined pockets.

 

JDG

[JDG]

My problem right now with Moulds is that it is clear that he simply wants to be released. If money were the only issue, then he could:

 

1. Work out a more cap-friendly deal that will still net him a similar amount of cash in 2006.

 

 

Sorry, but this is not correct. The Bills are not offering Moulds the opportunity to convert his salary into signing bonus to reduce the cap hit.

 

2. Hold fast with his current contract. That is, state that he and the Bills have a contract in place that he is willing to honor. If the Bills don't want to honor it, then the onus is on them to cut or trade him.

 

Originally, #2 seemed to be Moulds' stance. However, he has recently changed his tune. My guess is that he was being disingenuous early on because he knew that the Bills were in some mild cap trouble if they didn't cut him. With the expansion of the CBA, there is no rush to free up his cap figure, and the team no longer HAS to cut him.

 

They do, however, need to make a decision by the time his roster bonus is due.

628362[/snapback]

 

In this case, Moulds is worried that the Bills will wait to cut him until the market for WR's has dried up, thus substantially impacting his earnings on the open market.

 

JDG

[turftoe]

Can we please stop all talk about T.O. as a potential replacement for E.M. He has a SNOWBALLS CHANCE IN HELL of coming to the Bills! He is exactly the type of player Levy is trying to avoid. As for E.M., the Bills owe him nothing and should be in no hurry to give him his wish of being released. I'm curious to know if and when he is due a roster bonus. This will likely decide his fate. If he has none, or, it's not for several months, then the Bills are in decent shape. The fact that E.M. has to say these things in the media makes me think his back is a bit up against the wall. I agree that the last thing the bills want is for E.M. is to count $5M against our cap and be catching passes from Tom Brady.

[The Senator]

marv isn't running the show though - wilson is, and in any case i'm sure john guy, modrak, overdorf, etc. are sharing their opinions with marv about this.  it may be the case that everyone who was here last year is pretty pissed.

628397[/snapback]

So why, then, does Marv keep repeating himself- over and over - that "they want to retain" Moulds? I don't get it - is Marv stupid or something?

 

As I recall, RW seemed pretty sympathetic to Moulds' plight over the suspension thing - even referred to Moulds as "loyal...a friend...someone who has contributed greatly to the team...etc., etc." I'm pretty sure Mularkey wanted to suspend Moulds for 4 games (the remainder of the season) after the Miami incident. Wasn't it Ralph who flew to town to meet with Moulds, and reduced the suspension to one game (without pay)?

 

I think Moulds actually wants to stay. His agent and his 'personal advisor' (whatever that is) are just trying to push the Bills along by negotiating through the media.

[GG]

You mean it was Moulds' fault that Donahoe & Co. insisted upon trotting out a QB who had no business being on an NFL playing field for half the season?

 

 

It was Moulds' fault that Mike Williams, Bennie Anderson, Trey Teague, & Co. couldn't block the broad side of a barn?

 

 

It was Moulds' fault that McGahee averaged a stunning 3 yards per carry or less in four out of five games down the stretch?

 

 

It was Moulds' fault that when teams decided to run against us, we couldn't stop the run, and when teams decided to pass against us, we couldn't stop the pass?

 

 

I get it.... things sucked last year because it was the fault of our *best* offensive player.

 

Oh that must be it....... 

 

JDG

628335[/snapback]

 

Those factors are outside his control. However, when the administration and the coaches made the QB decision, he (and other vets) could have elected to play as hard for the rookie QB, as they would for another guy. Losman wasn't on the field aligator arming half hearted routes.

 

To me, the season was lost between the Tampa & NO games. Just as Losman's flaws were grossly exposed, he could have used some help from his veteran receiver. Interesting that you note the failure of the run game. But, please see the replay of the NO game and check out the defense stacking on the run, and then focus on Moulds' play in that game. The film doesn't lie.

 

Then, he throws a temper tantrum vs Miami and emasculates the coaching staff. Now that he's realizing that his actions in '05 are going to seriously cost his paycheck in '06, he's starting to cry.

 

Why are people complaining about Bills taking a hard stance with Moulds, when a similar tactic with Price gained Bills a 1st round pick? Why should the Bills accomodate his wishes, and Bills get zero compensation for him? The longer they can afford to hold on to him, the better the team's position is.

[Bill from NYC]

Those factors are outside his control.  However, when the administration and the coaches made the QB decision, he (and other vets) could have elected to play as hard for the rookie QB, as they would for another guy.  Losman wasn't on the field aligator arming half hearted routes.

 

To me, the season was lost between the Tampa & NO games.  Just as Losman's flaws were grossly exposed, he could have used some help from his veteran receiver.  Interesting that you note the failure of the run game.  But, please see the replay of the NO game and check out the defense stacking on the run, and then focus on Moulds' play in that game.  The film doesn't lie.

 

Then, he throws a temper tantrum vs Miami and emasculates the coaching staff.  Now that he's realizing that his actions in '05 are going to seriously cost his paycheck in '06, he's starting to cry.

 

Why are people complaining about Bills taking a hard stance with Moulds, when a similar tactic with Price gained Bills a 1st round pick?  Why should the Bills accomodate his wishes, and Bills get zero compensation for him?  The longer they can afford to hold on to him, the better the team's position is.

628447[/snapback]

 

Absolutely great post.

I cannot understand the outpouring of sympathy for Moulds. It is far more important for Marv to do what is right for this football team and the fans than to accomodate this crybaby who has little to no stake in the future of the Buffalo Bills.

[obie_wan]

any team that deals with an agent for a player on another team whose contract is up before free agency begins is tampering. it happens all the time. did you ever wonder how we signed jeff posey at 12:01 am? i seriously can't believe people get their panties in a bunch over this issue. it's so picayune and inoffensive -- it's just business.

 

as for trading, i'm not talking about the bills, i'm talking about their trading counterpart, who would assume a huge cap figure with moulds assuming he keeps his current contract.  anyway, these sorts of trades hardly ever happen.

628394[/snapback]

 

The Bills trade him for draft picks.

 

Or for someone who is likely to be cut anyway - Patrick Ramsey

 

Boy - that's a hard concept.

[obie_wan]

dog, i tend to look at bonuses differently i guess -- i count them as part of the first year salary, because you never know what can happen in year 2 -- torn acl's broken limbs, cartilege damage, etc. if he were to get a bonus of, say, 8 million -- not out of the water because he's a better player than randle el, who got more -- plus a base of $1 million, he'd make $9 million next year, more than he'd make for the bills.

628399[/snapback]

 

yeah - you and TO.

 

so what that the bonus is prepaid money for 2 or 3 years and the player is severely overpaid in year 1.

 

When year 2 rolls around, the player is in a uproar because his current salary is too low and he is getting dissed.

 

Conveniently forgets all the cash in his pocket from year 1 bonus.

 

 

But it's all about ME - right NOW

[The Senator]

Absolutely great post.

I cannot understand the outpouring of sympathy for Moulds. It is far more important for Marv to do what is right for this football team and the fans than to accomodate this crybaby who has little to no stake in the future of the Buffalo Bills.

628458[/snapback]

I have no sympathy for Moulds - none whatsoever. I mean, how the heck can you have sympathy for a guy making that much money?

 

But I do think he has a valid postition - the Bills should honor their contract. I also think he's still a great WR who draws the double coverage that allows Evans to shine, and that the Bills will be better off with Moulds than without him.

 

As far as what's right for the team, I think you know that I never agreed with or understood those who said "let's just cut him", instead of trying to work out a trade - any trade. It's just crazy talk. Makes no sense at all, if you want to do what's right for the team. You get nothing in return - not even a 3rd or 4th round pick (I think they could get more) - and what if he were to end up in New England?

 

Anyway, if you do release Moulds, you have to find and pay his replacement - and there aren't that many good ones out there that would result in any substantial cap savings, so what would be the point?

 

Keeping Moulds is what's right for this team - that's why Marv's doing it.

[K-9]

So Moulds torpedo'd the 2005 season? LOL, that is rediculous! LMFAO! He's a classless punk because he wants what's OWED to him in his CONTRACT? He wouldn't be owed such a large chunk if the Bills hadn't asked him to restructure his deal TWICE already. It's the FO's fault his cap number is so high this year, not his. How can you blame him for wanting what's in his contract? For wanting the qb to throw him the damn ball? Some of you amaze me.

628175[/snapback]

 

 

He's a classless punk because he quit on his team, IN PUBLIC, at Miami. He's a classless punk because he's a selfish, ME FIRST locker room A-hole. He's a classless punk because he's been known to spit on opponents (yeah, I know they're all making up the same story).

 

He's not a classless punk because he wants what's owed to him at all. Nothing wrong with that.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[dave mcbride]

Those factors are outside his control.  However, when the administration and the coaches made the QB decision, he (and other vets) could have elected to play as hard for the rookie QB, as they would for another guy.  Losman wasn't on the field aligator arming half hearted routes.

 

To me, the season was lost between the Tampa & NO games.  Just as Losman's flaws were grossly exposed, he could have used some help from his veteran receiver.  Interesting that you note the failure of the run game.  But, please see the replay of the NO game and check out the defense stacking on the run, and then focus on Moulds' play in that game.  The film doesn't lie.

 

Then, he throws a temper tantrum vs Miami and emasculates the coaching staff.  Now that he's realizing that his actions in '05 are going to seriously cost his paycheck in '06, he's starting to cry.

 

Why are people complaining about Bills taking a hard stance with Moulds, when a similar tactic with Price gained Bills a 1st round pick?  Why should the Bills accomodate his wishes, and Bills get zero compensation for him?  The longer they can afford to hold on to him, the better the team's position is.

628447[/snapback]

this is all logical and i don't disagree with you. that said, since i'm assuming that the bills will cut him at some point, i would be a lot more comfortable if they had a viable replacement, which they don't presently have. i was hoping antonio bryant would be the replacement, but the niners landed him. i hope he proves me wrong, but i have no faith in davis being a legitimate 70 catch receiver next year. i also don't have much faith in parrish, and as for evans, i wonder if he's the sort of guy who has it in him to top the 65 catch mark. he's a real talent, to be sure, but i'm not sure his game involves being a high catch-number chain mover like moulds. plus there's the pass receiving tight end debacle, which has been ongoing since mckeller got hurt in the early 90s.

[dave mcbride]

He's a classless punk because he quit on his team, IN PUBLIC, at Miami. He's a classless punk because he's a selfish, ME FIRST locker room A-hole. He's a classless punk because he's been known to spit on opponents (yeah, I know they're all making up the same story).

 

He's not a classless punk because he wants what's owed to him at all. Nothing wrong with that.

 

GO BILLS!!!

628531[/snapback]

K-9, if you're disappointed by classless punks, then being a fan of the nfl must be a grueling experience for you. i'd say they comprise well over half the league.

 

as for moulds, the most vicious thing i ever saw him do is literally almost break sam madison's neck after madison intercepted a pass in the 98 playoff game. he grabbed his facemask from behind and twisted, deliberately trying ed to hurt him badly.