JÂy RÛßeÒ Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Jay R. was a hell of a nice guy - nice doesn't cut it on the turf 582870[/snapback] Why thank you! ... What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lamb Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Why thank you! ... What? 582883[/snapback] You couldn't run a Seven-slant very well - either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipster19 Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 People are recalling certain players failing on certain plays thus causing their dismiss. What play(s) was the boiling point for ridding of past players? This should be interesting hearing the scarred memories of the Buffalo faithful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kultarr Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 But isn't that just TD's standard MO? How many "old" veterans has he brought back? A couple points: - Sometimes it may be a good idea to keep some veterans around. IMO, having a good mix of veterans and young turks is the best option. - Does anyone think that "The Bus" would still be in Pittsburgh if TD was still pulling the strings there? Yes, he is just a role player now, but he's still an asset to that team (Parker has said without Bettis helping him, he wouldn't have made it). Well, when he's not coughing it up against the Colts in one of the most bizarre plays ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasper13 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 If you do not own a copy of "Relentless: The Hard Hitting History of Buffalo Bills Football", find one, buy it and then read it. Read the off season moves and the day-to-day stories surrounding the Bills in the 1970's & mid 1980's. Same situation as the past 5 years excpet it was worse, only the owner is the same. Players were always complaining about salaries, moves the team made or didn't make, bad drafts, worse trades and while alot of the players loved the fans & the WNY area, most couldn't wait to get the heck out of here. The Bills from 1975-1979 and 1982-1986 was pretty much like the Bills from 2001-2005. Let's hope history repeats itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lamb Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 But isn't that just TD's standard MO? How many "old" veterans has he brought back? A couple points: - Sometimes it may be a good idea to keep some veterans around. IMO, having a good mix of veterans and young turks is the best option. - Does anyone think that "The Bus" would still be in Pittsburgh if TD was still pulling the strings there? Yes, he is just a role player now, but he's still an asset to that team (Parker has said without Bettis helping him, he wouldn't have made it). Well, when he's not coughing it up against the Colts in one of the most bizarre plays ever. 582903[/snapback] From my stomping grounds - San Diego - Junior Seau and Rodney Harrison - done or fodder ? GM job is tough - some calls bite you in the butt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Eddie Robinson sucked....I wil never forget when Pennington broke Eddie's ankles on a TD scamper a few years back! 582839[/snapback] Oh goodness....I still remember the view I had of that from the upper deck in the Meadowlands. They couldn't show it on the replay board enough. I think it was the same game that Jay killed a late first half drive with a dropped first down. A score there would've kept the Bills in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lamb Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 If you do not own a copy of "Relentless: The Hard Hitting History of Buffalo Bills Football", find one, buy it and then read it. Read the off season moves and the day-to-day stories surrounding the Bills in the 1970's & mid 1980's. Same situation as the past 5 years excpet it was worse, only the owner is the same. Players were always complaining about salaries, moves the team made or didn't make, bad drafts, worse trades and while alot of the players loved the fans & the WNY area, most couldn't wait to get the heck out of here. The Bills from 1975-1979 and 1982-1986 was pretty much like the Bills from 2001-2005. Let's hope history repeats itself. 582906[/snapback] Small difference - thing called salary cap - read about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kultarr Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Small difference - thing called salary cap - read about it 582911[/snapback] The salary cap isn't the entire story though. It certainly did have a lot to do with gutting the team in 2001. But, the Bills are well under the cap these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kultarr Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 From my stomping grounds - San Diego - Junior Seau and Rodney Harrison - done or fodder ? GM job is tough - some calls bite you in the butt 582908[/snapback] Harrison was not done. Milloy was done. The fact is that it is often easier to pick up another team's scraps than to keep your own. Guys don't want to go from being the top dog on the team down to being a "bargain basement" veteran on the same club. Further, the backloaded contract concept just makes these sorts of separations no-brainers for the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lamb Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 The salary cap isn't the entire story though. It certainly did have a lot to do with gutting the team in 2001. But, the Bills are well under the cap these days. 582919[/snapback] So - we expect ??? I saw Washington, Paup and Jeffcoat happen all at once - not that I expect history to repeat - but Is optomism that inplausible ? Teams turn around very quickly. BTW - Marv's hiring leaves me blase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipster19 Posted January 25, 2006 Author Share Posted January 25, 2006 I'm starting to change my opinion with this Levy/Jauron hiring. What's not the obvious in the win/loss column could be the chemistry of the organization. To also to keep in the essence of this post I think that it's apparent that the last few years there was alot of backbiting going on. Let us not forget another example was Travis Henry. Before everyone jumps down my throat, I did think that we had to trade him. Matter of fact, a year earlier than when we did, especially that we had MaGahee. Say what you want about Henry but he did get dumped on. He didn't do nothing but give his best for the team. He lacked but so did our QBs, WRs and yes even Mr. MaGahee at times. I think in retrospect it just wasn't him but that stinking O-line that we have been floundering with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miyagi-Do Karate Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 It is too bad about Jay because he was I believe at one time a Buffalo favorite. I was discussing earlier tonight with a non Buffalo fan and I was reflecting on how in the past that players who were defecting and players who we were trying to recruit were either very bitter or wanted nothing to do with the organization. It just seemed like that there was some kind of hypocrisy going on. People like Dick LeBeau, who as far as I know never actually said anything but flew out of here ASAP. There were also some classy guys like Larry Centers and Eddie Robinson who left without the best of feelings. Sam Gash wasn't too happy if I remember correctly. Then of course we have had the past/current malcontents like Sam Adams (who when we signed him wanted to end his career in Buffalo), Ted Washington, Pat Williams, Jay of course, and Moulds. I'm just blurting out some people that come to mind but I'm sure that I missed several more. There seemed to be other people that came here on tour and then signed almost immediately elsewhere. I don't know, these people and scenarios , they all kind of left me with a disturbing feeling with their situations. There was also that white secondary guy, I forget his name from the Colts, that came here last year or the year before and just quit like, what, two days later? That one really bothered me. Not because he was so great but it was like he got here and when he looked around he wanted to puke. I'm sure that I'm getting flamed for this post but did or does anyone else feel like this? 582805[/snapback] Riermersma had a chance to re-up with the Bills, if I recall, but we didn't want to pony up the cash. So we let the Steelers sign him to a pretty big deal, watch him stink for a year, and now he's coaching high school football, probably still collecting $$ from the Pittsburgh contract (and probably still recovering from a lingering pulled groin suffered in 2001). Say what you will about TD, but letting JR go was one of his smartest moves. Bottom line is that this is a business. I'm sure there are a lot of ex-players who got old fast and then cut who said some bitter things about their old teams. It's not just something associated with the TD front office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Riermersma had a chance to re-up with the Bills, if I recall, but we didn't want to pony up the cash. So we let the Steelers sign him to a pretty big deal, watch him stink for a year, and now he's coaching high school football, probably still collecting $$ from the Pittsburgh contract (and probably still recovering from a lingering pulled groin suffered in 2001). Say what you will about TD, but letting JR go was one of his smartest moves. Bottom line is that this is a business. I'm sure there are a lot of ex-players who got old fast and then cut who said some bitter things about their old teams. It's not just something associated with the TD front office. 582937[/snapback] Actually, it was that TD wanted JR to take a cut, and JR refused. That was the end of JR in Buffalo at the end of the year. In this case, TD was correct. JR may have been a nice guy and di on occasion make some nice grabs, but he also dropped more than his fair share the last couple years in Buffalo, and did zip when he left. I don't recall Pittsburgh giving him all that much either. It certainly was not a big signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnykterstein Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 add Ruben Brown to the list of respected players that TD chased out of town, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 I think folks are falsely painting this as all one way or all the other way when it really is a mixed bad in terms of decisions. For example it was said up above that TD sucked in terms of personnel assessment, In some cases he did. The early decision to extend but then cut Henry Jones and go with Raion Hill was simply a bad choice. It was not that Jones was not well into the backside of his career but not only did we foolishly extend but cut him (the Holecek maneuver was the same idiocy but the Cowaet injury was not predictable so this coming back to bite us is not part of the indictment) but he hired GW who made poor safett assessment of Raion Hill and Jenkins. The poor development of Coy Wire and the sudden retirements of Cota and Battle forced to pay a ton for Milloy (who particularly given the above disasters which left us in safery need was actually a very good signing IMHO). However, along with crappy assessments like the one above, TD quite frankly pulled off some great player judgments such as: 1. Turning FA Peerless into a 1st round choice is one of the great assessment maneuvers in BFL history in my view. 2. Folks are down on McGahee after a huge tail off in the second half of the season (though his performance in the last two games should give folks some hope but fans are on the warpath). Nevertheless when most NFL gurus were running in fear of picking WM, TD trusted his docs and made an assessment which gave the Bills an RB who has rushed for 2K yards faster than Thurnman or OJ. 3. Je attracted TKO, Fletcher and Adams for a song here and those assessments were great. 4. Everyone passed on McGee on the first day of he draft and TD led a draft that snagged him. He made or hired idiots who made some assessment boners (Eddie Robinson did not have enough left to be a starter here) but he also made some the best moves ever and did a great job reading the market (stealing Denney off the phone from Pitts was a great market read whether you like Denney or not and passing on Kelsay who few would have objected if we picked him with the #23 because he saw that the run on DLs would have him be available in the 2nd round was a tremendous read that teams with his mistakes to make him a mixed bag rather than folk claiming he was all bad. Reimersma was a goner and deserved to go when he refused to take a pay cut to a level which matched his performance in his last year here. It would be disingenous if he felt ill-used by his treatment here because he took in far more money than he merited from his performance. Anyway, even if one wants to insist that the Bills screwed over player after player there is still a question of how much this is a Buffalo team or city issue and how much is viewed by players as a TD issue. I think that many players will be motivated by: 1. Jauron being viewed by the folks who played for him (Urlacher, Villarisl for example) as a good guy and players coach. 2. Marv is a HOF member and has a rep as a nice guy with Harvard smarts. 3. Its mostly about the Benjamins and if the Bills make an FA a great offer compared to the market I think this will overule any sense of past players getting screwed by TD. I do not think this is an issue beyond small market demographic issues which drag some players tobih markets like NYC. But even that is only an occaisional problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Tipster, Jay Riemersma was one those really, really overrated fan favorites. He was a big, dumb white guy, with hands of stone, and a nice Buffalo kind of name. TD was right to let him walk. He should really be thankful that he lasted as long as he did, and made some nice money along the way. The fact that the Bills have not had a better TE since, is anohter matter... Tipster, I am in complete agreement with you. I have been posting in this very subject, off and on, for as long as I have been a member of TSW. When everyone assumed (self included) we were headed in the right direction, my posts were normally greeted with comments like "the guy was a loser, his best days are past, buh-bye, don't let the door hit you on the way out." Going all the way back to his handling of the Flutie/Johnson situtaion, all the way up to letting Pat Williams walk, TD has shown a propensity to speak out of both sides of his mouth. He lectured Bills fans about the crappy way they treated Gregg Williams, upon his firing, but then, months later, all smug and clever, he takes thinly veiled shots at his former head coach. He let Drew Bledsoe go, and tells us he is grateful for what Drew did for the Bills. A few months later, in SI, he tells them that people shouldn't get too excited about Drews' quick start in Dallas, because all the teams he is beating will get a chance to face him again. Pat Williams tells us that he wanted to stay in Buffalo, TD tells us Williams did not want to stay in Buffalo. Rob Johnson wanted out of Buffalo, TD wanted him to take a pay-cut, but stay on. When RJ forced his release, TD took shots at him too, never mentioned that he was trying to re-sign him. The list is pretty long. The franchise's all-time leading scorer, Steve Christie, was hauled to the trash heap with very little fanfare. TD always seemed to have an insatiable need to get the last word, and take unnecessary cheap shots at former players. Almost like he had to reassure himself that he didn't make a mistake in letting them go. Players are suppoesed to be emotional. When they get cut from a team, they tend to say stupid things. Exectuives, like TD, should take the high road. TD never could, he always got his clever, subtle digs in at his ex-employees. I think his treatment of some of these guys (and I am not talking about just cutting guys, that is part of the game) speaks volumes about TD's character. I don't even hate TD, and in fact, I might be sleeping in my flannel Bills bed sheets a little easier tonight, if he was still the Bills GM. However, I never liked the image he was building of the Bills franchise. I looked the other way though, because I thought that was just the way things had to be done today in the NFL, and TD was building us a winner. I have known someone who has worked at One Bills Drive for about 20 years. For the last 3 or 4 years, this person has told me repeatedly, that the morale in the Bills front office has never been lower. Most, if not all, of the bad vibes were attributed to TD. Amongst his various executive skills, it seems, TD had a knack for making people feel small...he was apparently "stunned" that he was fired, he never thought it would happen. Karma? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 1. Turning FA Peerless into a 1st round choice is one of the great assessment maneuvers in BFL history in my view. 582978[/snapback] This may be TD's greatest move in Buffalo. It was brilliant, in fact. I can't remember a team, before that, who was able to actually able to pull off such a move. We now talk about this kind of gamesmenship as it is the norm in the NFL, but it really wasn't. I think, in retrospect, this move went to TD's head though. I agree, I don't think TD was a total disaster as a judge of personel, but he did have his share of miscues. The thing is, because he was so shrewd with contract negotiations, even when the moves didn't work, they really didn't hurt the Bills salary cap situation all that much, only on the field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habes1280 Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Holecek and Carpenter were outspoken in their enmity for Donohoe, along with others unmentioned whose names and situations are escaping me...I didn't like this as it was happening, and don't like that it happened, but TD was simply unsentimental-- and while I hate the lack of cohesion, identity, and solidarity that ideal creates, it is a pragmatic response to free agency. With very few exceptions, front offices are tending toward this rationale when negotiating contracts and rosters. The Polians are few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsWatch Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Steve Christie is another player I'd add to the long list. He gets injured (minor but keep him out for a few games) and Donahoe wants to IR him so he can come back after week 10 and when he refuses he cuts him. Just badly handled. Eathan Albright was another player who Donahoe cut and tried to get to vome back later but would have nothing to do with him. I'll remember him for the good he did just like I do John Butler despite how the big three was cut. I'll also remember all of those on the wall who talked about getting a Donahoe jersey calling him their MVP. Levy I think will let players know in person when they are cut not letting them hear it in the news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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