Ben Johnson?? Ben Johnson?? LOL

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Who he is is this:

 

Goff with Rams (5 years):  42-27, 18171 yards, 107 TD, 55 INT, 63.4%, rating 91.5

 

Stafford with Rams (5 years): 36-23, 15243 yards, 98 TD, 45 INT, 65.9% rating 95.6

 

Goff with Detroit: (5 years): 40-26, 17446, 121 TDs, 40 INT, 68.3%, rating 101.2.

 

 

 

 

 

yes

 

a significantly less talented QB than Stafford

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I just couldn't disagree more with this. Daboll was a nobody that had spent his career as the OC for bottom ranked offenses. Allen's pass catchers were Kelvin Benjamin, Zay Jones, Andre Holmes, and Charles Clay. His starting OL was 2nd year Dion Dawkins, Vlad Ducasse, Russell Bodine, John Miller, and Jordan Mills. A lot of young QBs have a solid veteran in the room to help them learn - Allen had Nathan Peterman. We only retroactively say that the Bills set Allen up for success because he ended up a success. The reality is he had as bad a supporting cast as you could possibly formulate.

 

Allen has a lot of superpowers that make him an elite QB. One that probably doesn't get enough credit nationally is his ability to confront his flaws and fix them ridiculously fast. Allen has had plenty of bad games throughout his career but he has very very rarely had two in a row. He completely rebuilt his mechanics from the ground up and recently changed his entire play style to fit a new scheme and philosophy. I credit McDermott and Beane for turning the culture around here but I don't credit them for Allen's ascension. His own mental and physical abilities made him who he is today.

correct

 

bad offense, poor/untested OCs, bad QB rooms that he had to fill entirely starting as a rookie

 

he was 100% set up to fail 

[gonzo1105]

The difference is that the trigger man in Chicago isn’t close to being as good as the trigger man in Detroit. 
 

Yes the Lions also have had a significantly better offensive line but the weapons are closer than people think even though the Lions hold the edge there as well. 
 

Defensively they are going to have good games and bad games that’s just how the NFL is now but they don’t have a QB whole lot of can win them a shootout 

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I just couldn't disagree more with this. Daboll was a nobody that had spent his career as the OC for bottom ranked offenses. Allen's pass catchers were Kelvin Benjamin, Zay Jones, Andre Holmes, and Charles Clay. His starting OL was 2nd year Dion Dawkins, Vlad Ducasse, Russell Bodine, John Miller, and Jordan Mills. A lot of young QBs have a solid veteran in the room to help them learn - Allen had Nathan Peterman. We only retroactively say that the Bills set Allen up for success because he ended up a success. The reality is he had as bad a supporting cast as you could possibly formulate.

 

Allen has a lot of superpowers that make him an elite QB. One that probably doesn't get enough credit nationally is his ability to confront his flaws and fix them ridiculously fast. Allen has had plenty of bad games throughout his career but he has very very rarely had two in a row. He completely rebuilt his mechanics from the ground up and recently changed his entire play style to fit a new scheme and philosophy. I credit McDermott and Beane for turning the culture around here but I don't credit them for Allen's ascension. His own mental and physical abilities made him who he is today.

 

I largely agree with this but where I do give Brian Daboll (and to be fair McDermott to an extent) some credit is they let Josh Allen fail without ever getting gun shy and I do think that was part of his development. The absolute worst thing you could with young Josh Allen was take the ball out of his hands (because if he got out of rhythm the bad habits crept back into his throwing motion) and Daboll and McDermott definitively did not do it. I'm not saying but for that Josh Allen would of been a failure, or anything of the sort, but can I imagine other coaches who would have turned him into a Shanny style game manager, heavy play action pass - don't worry about full scale reads, dial it all back? Yep, I can and I think it would have taken longer for Josh to reach full elite. 

 

You can be more balanced or even run heavy with Josh now, and it's fine. He can play literally any type of game you want him to play. But in 2019, 2020, 2021 not sure that was true. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

The difference is that the trigger man in Chicago isn’t close to being as good as the trigger man in Detroit. 
 

Yes the Lions also have had a significantly better offensive line but the weapons are closer than people think even though the Lions hold the edge there as well. 
 

Defensively they are going to have good games and bad games that’s just how the NFL is now but they don’t have a QB whole lot of can win them a shootout 

the Lions are also the team that just went 15-2 whereas the Bears were 5-12 iirc

 

@BringBackFergyis the same guy who would clown on Ben Johnson for losing that game while at the same time thinking McDermott taking Rex Ryan's 7-9 squad to 9-7 is grounds for sainthood

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 

correct

 

bad offense, poor/untested OCs, bad QB rooms that he had to fill entirely starting as a rookie

 

he was 100% set up to fail 

 

This shouldn't be at all controversial. By the GM's own admission they did a "horrible job" putting things around Allen in 2018. 

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Might be unpopular, but i do NOT think Josh is anywhere what he is today if he landed in Cleveland or NYJ that year.... gun to my head answer? I think he fully busts out with how raw he was. We forget how much work, and support he received his first 3 years here, to refine that talent.

 Can I ask what made us different from Cleveland and NYJ in those days?

 

we were fully on the draft a QB, watch him fail, fire everybody carousel for about 18 years until Allen got here

43 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

yes

 

a significantly less talented QB than Stafford

correct

 

bad offense, poor/untested OCs, bad QB rooms that he had to fill entirely starting as a rookie

 

he was 100% set up to fail 

The greatest trick McBeane ever played was convincing the Bills fandom that this era is all because of them 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

 Can I ask what made us different from Cleveland and NYJ in those days?

 

we were fully on the draft a QB, watch him fail, fire everybody carousel for about 18 years until Allen got here

The greatest trick McBeane ever played was convincing the Bills fandom that this era is all because of them 

if we get a Super Bowl out if it I guess it doesnt really matter

but holy ***** this era could have been so much better 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

So they're basically all the same-ish.

 

Seems like a change of scenery was good for all parties.

 

One is considered a future HOFer...

48 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

yes

 

a significantly less talented QB than Stafford

correct

 

bad offense, poor/untested OCs, bad QB rooms that he had to fill entirely starting as a rookie

 

he was 100% set up to fail 

 

that's one way to ignore the data...

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

if we get a Super Bowl out if it I guess it doesnt really matter

but holy ***** this era could have been so much better 

I’m fully convinced there’s a universe where Josh Allen retires as the undisputed GOAT QB. 
 

He unfortunately got saddled with pale Ron Rivera and Gettlelite as his supporting cast.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

One is considered a future HOFer...

 

that's one way to ignore the data...

well don't take it from me lol you can ask McVay

or any nfl person in general who the better QB is

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Who he is is this:

 

Goff with Rams (5 years):  42-27, 18171 yards, 107 TD, 55 INT, 63.4%, rating 91.5

 

Stafford with Rams (5 years): 36-23, 15243 yards, 98 TD, 45 INT, 65.9% rating 95.6

 

Goff with Detroit: (5 years): 40-26, 17446, 121 TDs, 40 INT, 68.3%, rating 101.2.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah so Stafford was much better in LA lol

 

He instantly won a Super Bowl there. Jared Goff has puked in the postseason with maybe the most talented team in football 2 years running.

 

1 hour ago, BillsShredder83 said:

I think itd be foolish to assume that teams like Cleveland, NYJ, and Chicago have repeatedly "guessed wrong"... year after year. 

 

If you look at these teams individually it certainly looks like these teams are ruining prospects, that would've panned out elsewhere

This take is crazy to me.

 

If we are living in a world where Wentz or Jameis or Mariota or Brandon Weeden or Fields or Trubisky are drafted by McD, some of them end up being great QBs?

 

No chance. 0 percent.

 

 

[Mikie2times]

14 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 Can I ask what made us different from Cleveland and NYJ in those days?

 

we were fully on the draft a QB, watch him fail, fire everybody carousel for about 18 years until Allen got here

The greatest trick McBeane ever played was convincing the Bills fandom that this era is all because of them 

It's been my contention the whole time. Do we have an excellent culture? Yes.  Do we have a rare consistency that we can credit, at least, in part, to our leadership? Yes. But these concepts never become reality without winning and doing so with consistency. How many equivalent or similar GM/Coach combo's have never been able to focus on process or culture because the QB is a revolving door and they can't remain above .500? This started with Josh more than anything else and it will end with Josh.  That doesn't throw shade on the work those two guys have done, but some people feel the whole thing falls apart if they aren't here. No, it falls apart if 17 is not here and that's not giving Josh too much credit. He can generate production based on his individual skills like no player in NFL history. 

Edited September 17 by Mikie2times

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

It's been my contention the whole time. Do we have an excellent culture? Yes.  Do we have a rare consistency that we can credit, at least, in part, to our leadership? Yes. But these concepts never become reality without winning and doing so with consistency. How many equivalent or similar GM/Coach combo's have never been able to focus on process or culture because the QB is a revolving door and they can't remain above .500? This started with Josh more than anything else and it will end with Josh.  That doesn't throw shade on the work those two guys have done, but some people feel the whole thing falls apart if they aren't here. No, it falls apart if 17 is not here and that's not giving Josh too much credit. He can generate production based on his individual skills like no player in NFL history. 

Belichick’s cultural dynasty of like 19 AFCE titles, 6 championships and 8 straight AFCCG’s fell apart into a top 3 pick and everybody fired in about 3 years. 
 

If it can happen to the greatest NFL coach ever, McD and co will almost certainly bellyflop their way out of Buffalo when Josh retires. 

[34-78-83]

To think that 2018 (and 2019 even for that matter) was anything more than a planned transitional year for a multitude of reasons is kinda funny. Have at it, all you "I-know-better"s

[PayDaBill$]

The comedic genius of this thread is judging a rookie coach installing a new system with an inexperienced qb and expecting the Lions production after 2 games.   

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, 34-78-83 said:

To think that 2018 (and 2019 even for that matter) was anything more than a planned transitional year for a multitude of reasons is kinda funny. Have at it, all you "I-know-better"s

no rookie HC and staff plans two consecutive 'transitional years'

 

there is no such job security in the NFL

[FireChans]

42 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

This shouldn't be at all controversial. By the GM's own admission they did a "horrible job" putting things around Allen in 2018. 

 

2 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

To think that 2018 (and 2019 even for that matter) was anything more than a planned transitional year for a multitude of reasons is kinda funny. Have at it, all you "I-know-better"s

 

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

no rookie HC and staff plans two consecutive 'transitional years'

 

there is no such job security in the NFL

No HC and staff would plan for their first year to NOT be a transitional year, then the next 2 be transitional years lol.

 

”we are going to be competitive year one, then tear it all down in year 2” is not a plan the owner signs up for lol.

[34-78-83]

20 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

no rookie HC and staff plans two consecutive 'transitional years'

 

there is no such job security in the NFL

Oh I am quite sure you know what I meant about 2019, but if I need to spell it out, apologies. Its a growth year with some of their still young picks and they were still adding pieces and working around financial constraints to boot, along with Josh learning more on the fly as a very raw but uber-talented piece of clay that he was.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, 34-78-83 said:

Oh I am quite sure you know what I meant about 2019, but if I need to spell it out, apologies. Its a growth year with some of their still young picks and they were still adding pieces and working around financial constraints to boot, along with Josh learning more on the fly as a very raw but uber-talented piece of clay that he was.

cool also help spell this one out for me- in your eyes, Peterman was all 'part of the plan'

[34-78-83]

23 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 

 

No HC and staff would plan for their first year to NOT be a transitional year, then the next 2 be transitional years lol.

 

”we are going to be competitive year one, then tear it all down in year 2” is not a plan the owner signs up for lol.

2017 was competitive because of a new mindset, expectations and a lot of luck. 2018 was the year Josh was drafted, and the team was still being built around him, including some tough cuts who didn't fit the mold. 2019 was a growth year but I still call it transitional because the total transition to the operation they have been since 2020 was still in play.

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

cool also help spell this one out for me- in your eyes, Peterman was all 'part of the plan'

I don't see Peterman as anything but a joke of a QB, insert placeholder QB here. Our leadership was of the philosophy that they didnt want to throw Josh to the wolves too early, until they realized the garbage they had in Peterman.