hondo in seattle Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think having Knox and Kincaid as our two 'ends' is a winning formula. Not enough speed to threaten defenses vertically. And what if one gets hurt? TEs are nice. But a team needs a diversity of weapons to challenge a good NFL defense. Let me daydream for a moment. Imagine we had our current TEs and wideouts and added Eric Moulds and Lee Evans to the mix. That would make for a dynamic aerial attack. We need to move more in that direction. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey152 Posted April 25 Author Share Posted April 25 38 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think having Knox and Kincaid as our two 'ends' is a winning formula. Not enough speed to threaten defenses vertically. And what if one gets hurt? TEs are nice. But a team needs a diversity of weapons to challenge a good NFL defense. Let me daydream for a moment. Imagine we had our current TEs and wideouts and added Eric Moulds and Lee Evans to the mix. That would make for a dynamic aerial attack. We need to move more in that direction. This is an acceptable take...the two TE set isn't for everyone, and if the goal is to push Knox and/or Kincaid to the bench (and the whole 6th lineman concept), then that is a different story. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 hour ago, Mikey152 said: A few points... I'm not really seeing where you addressed my point about "where" players are lined up...are you talking about having an X on the LOS so another receiver can go in motion? If so, you're literally missing the entire point of my post. With two TE on the field a significant amount of the time, there is less need to line up a receiver at X when you can just have a TE do it. Further, I think you are missing the whole point. Of course, all things being equal I would take a big fast WR with good hands and ability to separate...but those guys are almost always draft in the top 10. If they slide past that, there is usually something wrong with them. I'd take a Calvin Johnson, sure...but I don't want another Gabe Davis. In the late first round, you're going to be choosing between big fast guys with holes in their game, slot guys, and burners that lack size. Everyone I've seen on this board thinks our WR are too small and we need the big bodied X receiver like Mitchell or Leggette (or mortgage the future for Odunze) to go with Shakir and Samuel, and pretty much ignore and/or want to double dip on guys like Worthy, Franklin, Wilson, etc...all of whom were more productive in college AND better deep threats/YAC players. Maybe you should go watch the Lions play offense. And while you're at it, tell me all about their huge X receiver...I'll wait. Dawson Knox is a pretty mediocre receiver, though. You lose a lot when you're putting him on the field instead of a WR, particularly in playoff games that turn into shootouts when the opposing qb is Burrow or Mahomes. I think @BADOLBILZ is referring specifically to playoff football here, which is where the Bills fall apart offensively. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey152 Posted April 25 Author Share Posted April 25 (edited) 25 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: Dawson Knox is a pretty mediocre receiver, though. You lose a lot when you're putting him on the field instead of a WR, particularly in playoff games that turn into shootouts when the opposing qb is Burrow or Mahomes. I think @BADOLBILZ is referring specifically to playoff football here, which is where the Bills fall apart offensively. And you lose something in the running game when you take him off... I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's a different conversation. Benching Knox for a rookie WR and running lots of 3 wide doesn't really seem like something we are going to do a lot, but who knows...I suppose it is possible and may be dictated by the opponent. Edited April 25 by Mikey152 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Grundy Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said: Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think having Knox and Kincaid as our two 'ends' is a winning formula. Not enough speed to threaten defenses vertically. And what if one gets hurt? TEs are nice. But a team needs a diversity of weapons to challenge a good NFL defense. Let me daydream for a moment. Imagine we had our current TEs and wideouts and added Eric Moulds and Lee Evans to the mix. That would make for a dynamic aerial attack. We need to move more in that direction. Troy Franklin gives me those Lee Evans vibes for some reason. Him and Keon Coleman added to this roster would be nice Edited April 25 by Solomon Grundy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) 22 hours ago, Back2Buff said: I dont trust Joe Brady enough to be able to scheme plays where a traditional X is not needed. I think we will end up with these smaller slot guys all getting jammed at the line. Agreed. There's plenty of receivers to make this passing game well above average for a creative OC given that Allen's our QB. If he can't do that, well, ... let's see whether it happens first. McD is not creative in his offensive planning, it would seem that he's trying to recreate what KC's done with Kincaid being the "Kelce" here. Having said all of that, they're nuts if they don't take a WR tonight. Edited April 25 by PBF81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrior9 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) 22 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Hardest players to jam are small quick guys. Easiest are big guys. Its not about size and strength, its about technique and understanding what the defense is trying to do. So Diggs was ABUSED at the line against the Chiefs..... known for his technique and route running. He's also 6 ft 1 and 200 pounds.. he's no twig. Easiest guys to jam are little guy off the line.. Small quick guys work out of the slot and in motion for a reason. Just because you're quick, doesn't mean you can move in a 1 yard box... . CB's line up within 1 yard of you if you're not off the ball or in the slot. If you're small, you're getting jammed before you move by longer arms, physical guys that punch you in the chest before you take a step. HORRIBLE take. Again, that's why small guys are used in motion and out of the slot......OFF the ball So to your rationale, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, DK, AJ Brown, Mike Evans, are easy to jam? L ... O .... L Edited April 25 by warrior9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) 36 minutes ago, warrior9 said: So Diggs was ABUSED at the line against the Chiefs..... known for his technique and route running. He's also 6 ft 1 and 200 pounds.. he's no twig. Easiest guys to jam are little guy off the line.. Small quick guys work out of the slot and in motion for a reason. Just because you're quick, doesn't mean you can move in a 1 yard box... . CB's line up within 1 yard of you if you're not off the ball or in the slot. If you're small, you're getting jammed before you move by longer arms, physical guys that punch you in the chest before you take a step. HORRIBLE take. Again, that's why small guys are used in motion and out of the slot......OFF the ball So to your rationale, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, DK, AJ Brown, Mike Evans, are easy to jam? L ... O .... L Ask any CB they’ll tell you. They want the big guys over the quick shifty guys. Big guys that are quick and shifty are just rare, but yeah they would be the scariest. Edited April 25 by Buffalo_Stampede 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 36 minutes ago, warrior9 said: So Diggs was ABUSED at the line against the Chiefs..... known for his technique and route running. He's also 6 ft 1 and 200 pounds.. he's no twig. Easiest guys to jam are little guy off the line.. Small quick guys work out of the slot and in motion for a reason. Just because you're quick, doesn't mean you can move in a 1 yard box... . CB's line up within 1 yard of you if you're not off the ball or in the slot. If you're small, you're getting jammed before you move by longer arms, physical guys that punch you in the chest before you take a step. HORRIBLE take. Again, that's why small guys are used in motion and out of the slot......OFF the ball So to your rationale, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, DK, AJ Brown, Mike Evans, are easy to jam? L ... O .... L Actually some of the hardest guys to ever press were Marvin Harrison and Antonio Brown... Odell Beckham was very hard to press Yet it's actually not hard to get your hands on Gabe Davis at the line of scrimmage Every wide receiver has lost a press battle before... But diggs throughout his career... Had a bevy of release moves which made it really hard to get your hands on him at the line of scrimmage... Diggs is certainly not a big wide receiver.. average for NFL standards There are a lot of release moves with a first backward step which actually won't let the defensive back get their hands on you and if they reach they will overextend and you can blow by them Don't get me wrong big guys like terell Owens can get off the press... But there are a lot of modern receivers at 6 ft tall or 6'1 who destroy press Like Justin Jefferson also And I wouldn't consider those big receivers... If you're pushing 220 lb or close to basically 6'3 I consider you big Davante Adams is not super tall.. 6'1 but he is pushing 220 so I would consider him big and he's obviously a freak off press Cedee lamb is 6'2 but only 185... He's got good size but he isn't huge... And he destroys press also Lockett destroys press and he isnt big... Beating press man is more of a skill then something that comes down to purely height or weight... Is Cole Beasley too small to beat an outside press from Jalen Ramsey? Yes Did diggs rip up Ramsey basically every single time he has tried pressing him? Yes and he's also just average NFL wr size The top 10 of NFL wide receivers beating press last season is basically mixed between some big guys and some not big guys which shows it's more of a skill set AJ Brown , Metcalf , Adams all guys I'd put squarely in big wide receivers Then diggs , lockett , fuller and Jefferson... None 6'2 or over and none are huge Those are 7 out of the top 10 on beating press last season ... Also kupp and Hopkins... Hopkins is pushing 220 but only 6'1.. so I'm inclined to add him to the big guys although he's really not huge There are some big physical freaks.. and some precise technical wide receivers But Tyler lockett is 5'11 and he abuses press man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Ask any CB they’ll tell you. They want the big guys over the small guys. It depends. Let's say you're a CB playing press coverage in a zone defense. Jamming a smaller, quick guy is easy if you can get your hands on him. You'll push him back and disrupt his route. But once he gets away, he's gone - unless of course you're also very quick. In any case, in zone you probably have a safety backing you up. And let's say you're a smallish DB going against a 6'4" receiver with good hands, a big catch radius, and speed. And he's a talented route-runner. He's going to be hard to defend in any defense. I don't think you can say big receivers are either better or worse than small quick guys. It depends on the receiver, defender, and the defensive play-call. Edited April 25 by hondo in seattle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 6 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Ask any CB they’ll tell you. They want the big guys over the quick shifty guys. Big guys that are quick and shifty are just rare, but yeah they would be the scariest. I played college corner and yeah I generally would rather go up against a Gabe Davis type than a Antonio Brown Obviously a big fast twitched athlete like Terrell Owens would give anybody hell... But it was always easy to get your hands on your typical big wr... Compared to Justin Jefferson... Who is average sized yet slick Obviously you're Julio Jones and AJ Brown's are super rare types... And the toughest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 2 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said: It depends. Let's say you're playing press coverage in a zone defense. Jamming a smaller, quick guy is easy if you can get your hands on him. You'll push him back and disrupt his route. But once he gets away, he's gone - unless of course you're also very quick. In any case, in zone you have backup. And let's say you're a smallish DB going against a 6'4" receiver with good hands, a big catch radius, and speed. And he's a talented route-runner. He's going to be hard to defend in any defense. I don't think you can say big receivers are either better or worse than small quick guys. It depends on the receiver, defender, and the defensive play-call. It is always the athlete you're going up against... I played college corner and have been across from every type of wide receiver... Obviously you're big strong fast athletic guy... Julio Jones, Eric moulds , Calvin Johnson , AJ Green are mismatches for anybody That is the pure prototype built in a lab But you're non freak big guy.. like Gabe Davis.. those types didn't give me much problem... Especially if you played with good technique It was the diggs or Lee Evans types... AB types... Average sized.. but so quick and athletic while running the entire route tree... That you have to be safe and cannot really Gamble Those are nightmares... I can't imagine shadowing prime Antonio Brown for 60 minutes... But on the flip nobody wants to do that to Randy Moss... Who there is no answer for 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 16 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: I played college corner and yeah I generally would rather go up against a Gabe Davis type than a Antonio Brown Obviously a big fast twitched athlete like Terrell Owens would give anybody hell... But it was always easy to get your hands on your typical big wr... Compared to Justin Jefferson... Who is average sized yet slick Obviously you're Julio Jones and AJ Brown's are super rare types... And the toughest Yes. Size doesn’t mean anything unless you have all the other things to go with it. I look at size when the player has everything else. Those are generational players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrior9 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 26 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Ask any CB they’ll tell you. They want the big guys over the quick shifty guys. Big guys that are quick and shifty are just rare, but yeah they would be the scariest. That is patently false. 21 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Actually some of the hardest guys to ever press were Marvin Harrison and Antonio Brown... Odell Beckham was very hard to press Yet it's actually not hard to get your hands on Gabe Davis at the line of scrimmage Every wide receiver has lost a press battle before... But diggs throughout his career... Had a bevy of release moves which made it really hard to get your hands on him at the line of scrimmage... Diggs is certainly not a big wide receiver.. average for NFL standards There are a lot of release moves with a first backward step which actually won't let the defensive back get their hands on you and if they reach they will overextend and you can blow by them Don't get me wrong big guys like terell Owens can get off the press... But there are a lot of modern receivers at 6 ft tall or 6'1 who destroy press Like Justin Jefferson also And I wouldn't consider those big receivers... If you're pushing 220 lb or close to basically 6'3 I consider you big Davante Adams is not super tall.. 6'1 but he is pushing 220 so I would consider him big and he's obviously a freak off press Cedee lamb is 6'2 but only 185... He's got good size but he isn't huge... And he destroys press also Lockett destroys press and he isnt big... Beating press man is more of a skill then something that comes down to purely height or weight... Is Cole Beasley too small to beat an outside press from Jalen Ramsey? Yes Did diggs rip up Ramsey basically every single time he has tried pressing him? Yes and he's also just average NFL wr size The top 10 of NFL wide receivers beating press last season is basically mixed between some big guys and some not big guys which shows it's more of a skill set AJ Brown , Metcalf , Adams all guys I'd put squarely in big wide receivers Then diggs , lockett , fuller and Jefferson... None 6'2 or over and none are huge Those are 7 out of the top 10 on beating press last season ... Also kupp and Hopkins... Hopkins is pushing 220 but only 6'1.. so I'm inclined to add him to the big guys although he's really not huge There are some big physical freaks.. and some precise technical wide receivers But Tyler lockett is 5'11 and he abuses press man Again, just because your big or just because you're quick does NOT mean you are better/ worse at getting off the line. His sentiment was, smaller guys are harder to press at the line and it's just false. You named a few. Diggs could NOT get off the line last year. Lockett (plays slot a lot), AB, and Marvin Harrison are three of the best EVER at beating man coverage. So you pick some of the best ever as an average? Jefferson is 205 pounds... thats not a small dude IN ANY CAPACITY ... His sentiment is false. You beat people off the line by being able to move in a phone booth very quickly and having leverage and strength.. 21 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: I played college corner and yeah I generally would rather go up against a Gabe Davis type than a Antonio Brown Obviously a big fast twitched athlete like Terrell Owens would give anybody hell... But it was always easy to get your hands on your typical big wr... Compared to Justin Jefferson... Who is average sized yet slick Obviously you're Julio Jones and AJ Brown's are super rare types... And the toughest Brother... you are comparing one of the best route runners ever to a blocking WR..... Now do AB vs Julio.... 2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Yes. Size doesn’t mean anything unless you have all the other things to go with it. I look at size when the player has everything else. Those are generational players. We are not talking about generational players.. no generational player is easy to jam off the line. He compared AB to Gabe LOL.... If you are looking at the average WR, there is an OBVIOUS reason why small / quick guys play the slot.... its because *gasp* they have room to make a move off the line because they can't get jammed. Why doesnt AJ Brown play in the slot? OHHH because he can beat man coverage off the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Just now, warrior9 said: That is patently false. Again, just because your big or just because you're quick does NOT mean you are better/ worse at getting off the line. His sentiment was, smaller guys are harder to press at the line and it's just false. You named a few. Diggs could NOT get off the line last year. Lockett (plays slot a lot), AB, and Marvin Harrison are three of the best EVER at beating man coverage. So you pick some of the best ever as an average? Jefferson is 205 pounds... thats not a small dude IN ANY CAPACITY ... His sentiment is false. You beat people off the line by being able to move in a phone booth very quickly and having leverage and strength.. You keep saying Diggs couldn’t get off the line last year. Honestly I didn’t watch all his releases last year. But if you’re trying to argue against adding a young Diggs because he’s small then I don’t know what to tell you. I would love to draft the next Diggs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrior9 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: You keep saying Diggs couldn’t get off the line last year. Honestly I didn’t watch all his releases last year. But if you’re trying to argue against adding a young Diggs because he’s small then I don’t know what to tell you. I would love to draft the next Diggs. I keep saying Diggs couldn't get off the line to the other poster who used Diggs as an example of a WR good against man... and he simply wasn't last few years. I never said that i'm against drafting the next Diggs... at all? Diggs is 6'1 200 something pounds. I'm talking purely football on the field. Small WR's do not have an advantage at getting off the line as this guy suggested. There is literally a position for small receivers to move freely and be off the ball.... for a reason. There is a reason Kupp and Edelmen, and all of the small quick guys play in the slot...... it's because they can't get off the ball. Edited April 25 by warrior9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 4 minutes ago, warrior9 said: If you are looking at the average WR, there is an OBVIOUS reason why small / quick guys play the slot.... its because *gasp* they have room to make a move off the line because they can't get jammed. Why doesnt AJ Brown play in the slot? OHHH because he can beat man coverage off the ball. If you’re smallish you’re likely going to be a Z. Z WRs are outside off the ball. They have room. Diggs was our Z the last couple years. Gabe Davis was our X. But NFL offense is different today. There’s a lot of was to open up WRs. Plus defenses are also different. Less man, more zone. Especially vs Josh Allen. Teams don’t play much man vs us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warrior9 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: If you’re smallish you’re likely going to be a Z. Z WRs are outside off the ball. They have room. Diggs was our Z the last couple years. Gabe Davis was our X. But NFL offense is different today. There’s a lot of was to open up WRs. Plus defenses are also different. Less man, more zone. Especially vs Josh Allen. Teams don’t play much man vs us. Did.... you uhh.. did you watch the Chiefs game? And Z WR's are not just outside "off the ball"........................? YIKES Edited April 25 by warrior9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 3 minutes ago, warrior9 said: I keep saying Diggs couldn't get off the line to the other poster who used Diggs as an example of a WR good against man... and he simply wasn't last few years. I never said that i'm against drafting the next Diggs... at all? Diggs is 6'1 200 something pounds. I'm talking purely football on the field. Small WR's do not have an advantage at getting off the line as this guy suggested. There is literally a position for small receivers to move freely and be off the ball.... for a reason. There is a reason Kupp and Edelmen, and all of the small quick guys play in the slot...... it's because they can't get off the ball. It’s a different game now. For one thing teams around the league don’t have the personnel to play that physical press style. It’s why we see smaller WRs have success today. 1 minute ago, warrior9 said: Did.... you uhh.. did you watch the Chiefs game? And Z WR's are not just outside "off the ball"........................? YIKES Yes, Z WRs are off the line of scrimmage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) 13 minutes ago, warrior9 said: That is patently false. Again, just because your big or just because you're quick does NOT mean you are better/ worse at getting off the line. His sentiment was, smaller guys are harder to press at the line and it's just false. You named a few. Diggs could NOT get off the line last year. Lockett (plays slot a lot), AB, and Marvin Harrison are three of the best EVER at beating man coverage. So you pick some of the best ever as an average? Jefferson is 205 pounds... thats not a small dude IN ANY CAPACITY ... His sentiment is false. You beat people off the line by being able to move in a phone booth very quickly and having leverage and strength.. Brother... you are comparing one of the best route runners ever to a blocking WR..... Now do AB vs Julio.... We are not talking about generational players.. no generational player is easy to jam off the line. He compared AB to Gabe LOL.... If you are looking at the average WR, there is an OBVIOUS reason why small / quick guys play the slot.... its because *gasp* they have room to make a move off the line because they can't get jammed. Why doesnt AJ Brown play in the slot? OHHH because he can beat man coverage off the ball. Diggs was statistically in the top seven for all NFL wide receivers beating press last year Had over an 85% success rate He certainly did not get abused All season by press man And yes my point was it is a skill set... Bigger guys with the skill set have an easier time of getting off the line of scrimmage but if they don't have that skill set it doesn't matter While a small guy like Tyler lockett with the skill set abuses press man Of course everybody wants AJ Brown on the outside And I'm using Gabe Davis as an example because he just got 15 million dollars a year... And he is a starting wide receiver in the NFL currently There are a lot more Gabe Davis type guys then Terrell Owens.... So your average big receiver is like Gabe Davis not AJ Brown... And he is not a top 15 guy beating press I never once said Gabe Davis was anything spectacular... He's your typical big receiver... And Tyler lockett is much better being press than him Tyler lockett is also good but nobody ever says he's a top 10 guy Edited April 25 by Buffalo716 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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